Gap between SSJ God Goku (initial) and Vegetto (Buu Saga)

[Cirno777]

@Cirno777
In the anime, Goku states that he could've finished for good Kid Buu when he had become Vegetto:

Spoiler

View attachment 2194View attachment 2195

In the manga, Goku says that he as Vegetto could've done it in one blast:

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he need to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: "Dammit~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. ...Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!."

Okay, I feel like this is going way off track. Godku states this "It's like it's not my own body!"



Do you not think he would say the same thing about Vegetto's body?

Okay, if you don't want to discuss Gotenks vs Super Buu, then so be it.

Well, if you actually wanna go at it again, I don't really mind that much. It's not like I'm triggered lmao

Shit, how about I start? You brought up Gohan being confident that Gotenks could beat Evil Boo.

Spoiler

Gohan does seem to think that Gotenks can beat Evil Boo, but he also tells him to be careful, which indicates that Gohan has a degree of doubt in Gotenks, & thus is not totally confident in him.


My turn. When Gotenks overpowered Evil Boo, Evil Boo was frustrated, which in turn made him slightly weaker, or at least more sloppy & easier to beat.

Spoiler

When a fighters mind has been shaken, their Ki can take a hit, because they have lost courage or right-mindedness (which are components of Ki).

This is why I think Evil Boo's statement of being the strongest is valid, because I think he literally was the strongest, it's just that he was momentarily weakened. Remember, he doesn't need to be overwhelmingly the strongest to be the strongest, he could be 0.01% stronger normally, & he'd still classify as the strongest, allowing Gotenks to be relative.

The gap between SSJ Gotenks and Super Buu seems smaller than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and Fat Buu and Base Goku is nowhere near close to SSJ Goten or Trunks, yet SSJ Gotenks is still weaker than Fat Buu, despite of Buu being weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

Although, nerfed multipliers is just a possibility, not something absolute.

Couple things:
1. Why is Base Goku < SSJ Goten/Trunks?
2. Why is SSJ Gotenks < Fat Boo?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Okay, I feel like this is going way off track. Godku states this "It's like it's not my own body!"

View attachment 2196

Do you not think he would say the same thing about Vegetto's body?

Why are you asking me this? We have seen in both appearances that Vegetto doesn't express himself into being a different person than Goku and Vegeta or that he is an different body. Only time is when Vegetto talks in 3rd person to Zamasu of that mortal called "Son Goku".

Well, if you actually wanna go at it again, I don't really mind that much. It's not like I'm triggered lmao

Shit, how about I start? You brought up Gohan being confident that Gotenks could beat Evil Boo.

Spoiler

View attachment 2197

Gohan does seem to think that Gotenks can beat Evil Boo, but he also tells him to be careful, which indicates that Gohan has a degree of doubt in Gotenks, & thus is not totally confident in him.

So, why would he let him to do the job?

Goku told Gohan to finish off Cell because they don't know what he can do:

Spoiler

In a similar manner, Super Buu's destruction worries Gohan:

Spoiler

He himself stated that if that's what he's doing, he'd have destroyed the whole Earth (everyone would have died):

Spoiler

None of this is related to power, but is still a threat due to this aspects.

My turn. When Gotenks overpowered Evil Boo, Evil Boo was frustrated, which in turn made him slightly weaker, or at least more sloppy & easier to beat.

Spoiler

View attachment 2198

When a fighters mind has been shaken, their Ki can take a hit, because they have lost courage or right-mindedness (which are components of Ki).

This is why I think Evil Boo's statement of being the strongest is valid, because I think he literally was the strongest, it's just that he was momentarily weakened. Remember, he doesn't need to be overwhelmingly the strongest to be the strongest, he could be 0.01% stronger normally, & he'd still classify as the strongest, allowing Gotenks to be relative.

Well, I agree that Super Buu may have been weakened but Piccolo also make a separation in between what his mental state is and how he don't know if his physical strength has fallen.

So, why Super Buu didn't actually overpower Gotenks if he was capable of doing so? Super Buu was not "mentally weaker" when he re-appeared again, being the same as always.

Couple things:

1. Why is Base Goku < SSJ Goten/Trunks?
2. Why is SSJ Gotenks < Fat Boo?

1. Because SSJ Goten and Trunks are 50x times stronger than their base selves and Goku isn't 50x times stronger than them.

2. Piccolo considers that Gotenks needs more training in either Kai or the manga, also when Super Buu forms he states that Fusion has never been enough.

 

[Dagon]

But Vegeta also called Goku #1 in the Boo Saga. This speech was a callback to that scene.

At that point Goku might literally have been #1.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

At that point Goku might literally have been #1.

Agreed, but I don’t think that was the point of the scene.

The true proof that Goku is the strongest is Vegeta’s reaction to finding out Beerus defeated Goku.

 

[Dagon]

Agreed, but I don’t think that was the point of the scene.

The true proof that Goku is the strongest is Vegeta’s reaction to finding out Beerus defeated Goku.

I think it's more that Vegeta's reaction more so confirms the #1 claim from before.

 

[ahill1]

One thing worth noting is that maybe Super Boo was shaken up and mentally affected because he learned Gotenks had a limited fusion time and he was already counting on absorbing them to best Gohan. When Gotenks reveals that, Super Boo seems to react to such statement in the hole he was in, whilst before that, Gotenks was noticing how Super Boo was taking too long to get out. He was likely waiting the right timining to absorb Gotenks but learning they'd defuse soon bothered him due to his needed change of tactics. It's not outright confirmed as the case in the story, but it makes a lot of sense with the info given later on and when taking attention to detais like Super Boo's plan, his reaction of shock in the panel Gotenks revealed his time limit and Boo's subsequent frustration/anger.

But even still, I think them being equals makes more sense than having Super Boo as slightly above. Super Boo seemed annoyed with Gotenks power from the get go when Gotenks headbutted him and blasted him through the temple. They hit each other there with similar proportions, imo. But Gotenks being his equal and Super Boo getting outpaced at the ending due to his weakened mental state/or a little of pretending so the kids would be eager to fuse again to take him out, works well, since if Gotenks was his equal, Super Boo still would be the superior overall due to Gotenks' time limits... Gohan was the first one that surpassed him in power considerably to the point he could do nothing, so even in an equal setting, he could still consider himself as the strongest weren't for Gohan imo.

 

[Cirno777]

One thing worth noting is that maybe Super Boo was shaken up and mentally affected because he learned Gotenks had a limited fusion time and he was already counting on absorbing them to best Gohan. When Gotenks reveals that, Super Boo seems to react to such statement in the hole he was in, whilst before that, Gotenks was noticing how Super Boo was taking too long to get out. He was likely waiting the right timining to absorb Gotenks but learning they'd defuse soon bothered him due to his needed change of tactics. It's not outright confirmed as the case in the story, but it makes a lot of sense with the info given later on and when taking attention to detais like Super Boo's plan, his reaction of shock in the panel Gotenks revealed his time limit and Boo's subsequent frustration/anger.

I never thought about it like that... That actually makes more sense.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

One thing worth noting is that maybe Super Boo was shaken up and mentally affected because he learned Gotenks had a limited fusion time and he was already counting on absorbing them to best Gohan. When Gotenks reveals that, Super Boo seems to react to such statement in the hole he was in, whilst before that, Gotenks was noticing how Super Boo was taking too long to get out. He was likely waiting the right timining to absorb Gotenks but learning they'd defuse soon bothered him due to his needed change of tactics. It's not outright confirmed as the case in the story, but it makes a lot of sense with the info given later on and when taking attention to detais like Super Boo's plan, his reaction of shock in the panel Gotenks revealed his time limit and Boo's subsequent frustration/anger.

But even still, I think them being equals makes more sense than having Super Boo as slightly above. Super Boo seemed annoyed with Gotenks power from the get go when Gotenks headbutted him and blasted him through the temple. They hit each other there with similar proportions, imo. But Gotenks being his equal and Super Boo getting outpaced at the ending due to his weakened mental state/or a little of pretending so the kids would be eager to fuse again to take him out, works well, since if Gotenks was his equal, Super Boo still would be the superior overall due to Gotenks' time limits... Gohan was the first one that surpassed him in power considerably to the point he could do nothing, so even in an equal setting, he could still consider himself as the strongest weren't for Gohan imo.

Gohan was stronger to the point that he has nothing to do, the same can't definitely apply with Gotenks. This is the same as to why Fat Buu considered that Kid Buu was stronger than him, but never acknowledges inferiority towards SSJ3 Goku (he also shows a Pinochio nose which is a sign to pressume).

Goku and Gohan believing Gotenks can defeat Buu doesn't work considering Gotenks' limitations, and on the cherry of the top, Buu's haxxed abilities which would definitely give him the edge.

 

[HunterR18]

SSG Goku (BOG) > abyss > Vegito SSJ3