Gogeta's Analysis

[Fantastische Hure]

Goku was thinking of fusing with Gohan initially, not Vegeta.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There's a fair bit of difference between the situations with Gohan and Vegeta though. When trying to fuse with Gohan, Goku had to get in the same vicinity as Boo. With Vegeta, he had ample time to try the dance before Boo caught up when considering the two Saiyans had enough time to argue about fusion and other matters.

 

[p123]

Vegeta refused to do that ridiculous dance. Who's to say they would have been able to pull it off perfectly the first time either without practice? The only move is Potara.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Vegeta refused to do that ridiculous dance.

A small price to pay compared to being fused permanently.

Who's to say they would have been able to pull it off perfectly the first time either without practice? The only move is Potara.

Vegeta had seen Goten and Trunks perform it, likely seeing both the failed and successful attempts. Someone who's credited as a top tier battle genius should be capable of picking it up as easily as Piccolo did, who was able to coach the kids on what they were doing wrong after only seeing Goku perform the movements a few times.
Not only that, but when considering Goku thought about using Fusion despite Gohan's experience being far inferior to Vegeta's and thereby far more likely to fail, it seems difficult to imagine Goku would be factoring it in here.

 

[p123]

You assume Vegeta is rational. He's not. He refused to do the dance and chose to die. Small price to pay to stay alive, family to be alive, Earth to be saved, but Vegeta is a stubborn bastard. He was willing to throw it all away not to do the dance.

Goku clearly wasn't thinking straight. He was rushing to go down there and throw hands with no plan. So let's not pretend he is in the best state of mind here. How is Gohan going to be able to learn the fusion dance, without ever seeing it, on the fly, when he's not coordinated enough to catch a fucking earring?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You assume Vegeta is rational. He's not. He refused to do the dance and chose to die. Small price to pay to stay alive, family to be alive, Earth to be saved, but Vegeta is a stubborn bastard. He was willing to throw it all away not to do the dance.

I can agree to that with what Fusion represents, relying on Goku's help. However, when it comes to two methods, one being a dance for 30 minutes of shame or wearing earrings for an eternity fused, I don't see even Vegeta at his most irrational taking the latter if there was even a chance at the former being enough.
It's true that Goku withheld the information of it being permanent until the last second, which would've indeed affected Vegeta's choice. Still, the only reason I can see for him doing so in the first place would be to coerce Vegeta to use the Potara over any other potential method.

]Goku clearly wasn't thinking straight. He was rushing to go down there and throw hands with no plan. So let's not pretend he is in the best state of mind here. How is Gohan going to be able to learn the fusion dance, without ever seeing it, on the fly, when he's not coordinated enough to catch a fucking earring?

I agree, and he wouldn't have been any more level headed with Vegeta. With his state of mind, he most likely wasn't taken such things as incorrect poses into account either.

 

[p123]

You said a whole lot of nothin there bud. Even in the movies Gogeta failed multiple times before getting it right. It's unlikely they would get it right the first time. Goku spent a long time learning the technique. It's not just going to happen like that.

The kids practiced for days and still failed. I know you are held up on this idea that Gogeta is weak, but this is not the way son.

 

[SSJ2]

Doesn't Gohan Boo outright say that a fusion of Goku/Vegeta would be completely futile?

 

[p123]

Buutenks also says that a fusion of Goku and Gohan wouldn't be able to defeat him, meanwhile, Goku thinks they can definitely win. Buu is not to be trusted with these predictions, he might have Gotenks/Piccolo inside him, but he still can't recognize Tien or Dende.

The fact Goku even brings up the dance to Vegeta suggests that their fusion could beat him as well.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You said a whole lot of nothin there bud. Even in the movies Gogeta failed multiple times before getting it right.

Movie Vegeta didn't watch the kids fuse when he was in Other World, given Goku had to tell him how Fusion worked. Also, using the movies as evidence seems pretty dubious.

It's unlikely they would get it right the first time. Goku spent a long time learning the technique. It's not just going to happen like that.

Piccolo seemed to catch onto the specifics of how to use it correctly from very little exposure. No need to assume Vegeta would be much different.

The kids practiced for days and still failed.

The kids have nowhere near Vegeta's skill or experience.

I know you are held up on this idea that Gogeta is weak, but this is not the way son.

On the contrary, I believe Gogeta would stomp Boo, at least using SS2 or SS3. Goku's estimations would've been far lower than the reality as he had no knowledge of the rival boost and would only have Gotenks to use as a benchmark. Vegetto and Gogeta being close to each other, on the other hand, is a completely different question when Elder Kaioshin's hyping up of Potara over Metamoran, Gohan Boo's estimation of Gogeta (not factoring in the rival boost) and Vegetto even being shocked he was this far above Boo with just SSJ all point to the idea of Vegetto and Gogeta being close in the same form to not necessarily be the case. Sure, there is Elder Kaioshin's words about it not just being the Potara that made Vegetto so incredible, but in context, that just alludes to him believing Gogeta could thrash Boo. That isn't to say he'd be close to Vegetto though, nor is it concrete he could perform the same feats whilst just an SSJ.

Moreover, my responses were more to offer at least some expansion on the opposition to your points than what was already being provided. I wasn't entirely playing Devil's Advocate, but not vehemently defending my stance. I honestly don't care how strong Gogeta is, considering how there's several ways in which to interpret his strength, but in that lies the key to the discussion: your way of interpreting the strength of a character who never appeared in canon may be one way, but it isn't the one way.

 

[p123]

Yea, Gogeta is a wildcard.

But Buu is wrong about Metamoran Gokan. Goku flat out says they will definitely win and Buu says he can't be beat.

Perhaps you are right about Vegeta getting it right the first time. Goku does offer it to him again inside of Buu. I don't think I see anything that suggests that Goku thinks fusion is off the table other than Vegeta's refusal.

Goku had ample time to tell the viewer than no, regular fusion cannot beat this new version of Buu, only this new super, duper version of fusion can.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But Buu is wrong about Metamoran Gokan. Goku flat out says they will definitely win and Buu says he can't be beat.

You could assume Piccolo's knowledge of how Fusion works (matching each other's power, thereby meaning there shouldn't be a difference between Metamoran Gokhan and Gogeta, at least with what little he knew about Fusion). Of course, Boo didn't seem to have access to Piccolo's knowledge on people, though I'd assume he'd at least be able to draw on his technical knowledge. After all, what would be the point in absorbing Piccolo just for his intelligence if he had little to provide even in that department?
It's also worth noting who else Boo had absorbed; Gotenks, the only character in the series who may trump Vegeta in the arrogance department. I agree that Boo isn't the best judge from that, going by Gotenks' track record, but Gohan Boo stating Gogeta wouldn't be able to beat him is a different case due to the arrogant fusion being undone and Boo being left with the more level headed Piccolo and Gohan.

Perhaps you are right about Vegeta getting it right the first time. Goku does offer it to him again inside of Buu. I don't think I see anything that suggests that Goku thinks fusion is off the table other than Vegeta's refusal.

Well, Goku does exclaim that "Now we can't fuse" once Vegeta destroys the Potara, which could be taken in two ways; either regular fusion isn't enough, or Goku wasn't sure on whether or not Vegeta was aware of the dance. The former would support the thought that Gohan Boo > Estimated Gogeta, whilst the latter would support your idea of Gogeta being in a similar league to Vegetto. Unfortunately, the way Toriyama handled the scene doesn't provide a clear grasp on what Goku's thought process was at the time regarding the dance, so either side's grasping at straws with that part.

 

[p123]

I think Buu is just arrogant in general. I don't think losing Gotenks made his less so. He overall had the same disposition, Piccolo just made him more articulate and cunning.

For as level headed as you claim he was, he sure wasn't thinking to clearly. It took him forever to realize that Super Saiyan Vegetto was his superior. That's arrogance and ego to the max. The guy just couldn't perceive anyone stronger than himself. So I don't buy it. It's a free for all. The most concrete evidence we have is Goku saying that he and Gohan fusing could win.

We don't really know how fusion works, but if it's based on the lower person's power, then Gogeta could be the same. It's too all over the place to ever figure it out though imo.

Vegeta refused the dance twice. Now he's refusing the Potara. Vegeta has made it clear, he prefers death to himself and the universe over fusing with Goku. I think you are reaching with that point of view.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well, I don't argue that Boo is generally arrogant to the point of idiocy, given he believed a smokescreen would help him against Vegetto. However, as little as it may be, Gohan Boo's mindset ought to be given somewhat more credence than Gotenks Boo's when considering the Fusion's track record.

You're right that Vegeta absolutely didn't want to fuse with Goku, but what is a fact is that he eventually did, with just the knowledge that Trunks had been absorbed and Bulma killed being enough to coax him into doing so. Therefore, it stands to reason Vegeta would wake up to common sense and compromise if he'd already broke his own personal rule once.
Regardless, I'm not sure what your point regarding Vegeta in this instance is, given it had little importance to Goku's line of them being unable to fuse after the earring was destroyed.

 

[p123]

I don't know. Doesn't Buu suggest he absorbs Gotenks for power, Piccolo for brains? It's quite possible he can alter their influence over him. I'm sure he's giving Piccolo free reign to influence his mind and clearly not Gotenks or he'd be a buffoon. I think Buu can control how they influence him.

I don't think Gotenks, the kids or Gohan have any real effect on Buu's mentality. I think that's only reserved for those he allows, such as Fat Boy and Piccolo.

What I'm saying is that fusion is never outright discounted in the light you are suggesting. I never saw anything as a Potara can only do it, Fusion isn't strong enough kind of way.

 

[Six Trails]

Pretty sure Gotenks-Boo outright states that a fusion of Gohan and Goku would be a risk to him? He also knows that he is outclassed by Gohan and even admits inferiority. Calling him arrogant is actually pretty ignorant. Especially coming from the same guy who always say “statements are true if not contradicted”. Nothing contradicts Boo’s claim of Gogeta being weaker than him, so it must be true by that logic.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

You forgot to read the small print.

Statement are true, if not contradicted...unless they don't fit my narrative.

 

[p123]

Buutenks outright says that a Gohan/Goku fusion cannot defeat him, but he better stop them just in case. Statements are true unless contradicted and I write my own stories lately, so I'm doing some creative stuff. But from a pure debating standpoint, of course we take character statements to be the truth, why on Earth wouldn't we? People get pissy about that line of logic, it really stifles their ability to bullshit.

 

[Six Trails]

I don’t disagree with the logic, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy in only using it when it’s convenient.

Stating that the fusion is undoubtedly futile isn’t Boo being arrogant, just him not showing fear which would be stupid on his part. He’s clearly being cautious about it by saying he’d rather not take the risk, which isn’t the case with Gogeta where he sees no threat in Goku and Vegeta fusing.

 

[p123]

When do I only use it when it's convenient? I always go by character statements are true. It's literally the rule I made up. Why wouldn't I follow it. You struggle with reading comprehension as far as I can see. Sometimes I debate from a viewpoint of "What should of happened" instead of "What really happened". Perhaps you need to be provided a disclaimer for when I do since you seem incapable of surmising it on your own.

Buutenks and Buuhan did the same exact thing. Oh, you guys are going to fuse, it will be useless, but let me kill you off either way. How do you not see this? We sure as shit didn't see Buuhan allowing Vegeta and Goku to fuse now did we? He went for the kill immediately. He doesn't want to be challenged anymore, he wants to be King and that's it. He probably knows the fusion can beat him and won't admit it and he can't benefit from absorbing a fusion because of time limit. Better for him to eliminate the threat.