Gohan vs Dabura poll

[withheldforprivacy]

Yaay, I love candies.

 

[SSJ2]

1.

 

[GSM123]

SSJ2. Why would he hold back? That’s a Cell tier+ opponent and he’s holding his own there. He also ran out of stamina unusually quick for someone that’s not even at FP.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'm going to do a more comprehensive thread on the topic in the future (after I get past Gohan VS Dabura in my rewatch of the anime), but I'd be leaning more towards SS2 right now. There isn't much reason for Goku to compare Dabura to a weaker version of Cell without clarifying such when he's already sensed Perfect Cell's full power as well as likely SPC, not to mention a lot of statements supporting the power Gohan showcased as being greater than what he did standing around against Kibito (Shin saying Kibito didn't see how strong he was, Goku telling Gohan to get angry as he did against Cell, etc.). As GSM said as well, he got very worn out quickly despite Full-Power Super Saiyan's entire point being to reduce stamina consumption and it's not as though his rustiness can be entirely explained by that when he's been sparring with Goten in his SSJ form for weeks now. Also, of course, Daizenshuu weighs in pretty solidly on the matter. As I mentioned in the previous thread, Goku's aura also suggests his 3000 kiri was his full power as a SSJ and Dabura was still unconcerned, so either you have Dabura be far above SSJ Goku and just holding back against a SSJ Gohan or you have Gohan as a SS2.
Then, against Majin Boo, you have him being confident in his speed. Can you imagine Cell Game SSJ Goku seeing someone stronger than the 2 strongest fighters at the time and believing he could outspeed them?

The only real things supporting him being SSJ would be to some extent the artwork as well as him stating Goku and Vegeta were fighting on a level beyond Super Saiyan, though both can be argued against. For artwork, it's also important to note that Gohan's hairstyle is distinctly that of his SS2 self and remember the point of the lightning aura is mainly to show an impressive increase in power, Super Perfect Cell being an example (and I doubt anyone will be arguing Vegetto initially transformed into a SS2 against Gohan Boo and then immediately reverted to SSJ ). The lack of lightning can be a way to indicate Gohan's power decrease and the difference compared to him against Kibito showing it's a lot easier to stand around and look cool compared to actually battling. The statement about Goku and Vegeta, if anything, shows how far their SS2 selves are above Gohan to the point his SS2 wouldn't factor into the equation, not to mention the way he says it suggests it'd be a new revelation to Shin (and refuting that as a retcon is a pretty lazy route).

Overall, there seems to be a little more supporting him being SS2 than SSJ.

 

[SSJ2]

But it isn't only the lightning that is missing. SSJ2 has a distinctly different aura compared to SSJ1. Here is Goku SSJ2 aura vs Vegeta SSJ1:

Spoiler

Then in the next volume, we see Gohan, as well as SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku on the same page, yet they have completely different auras?

Spoiler

Gohan's SSJ2 aura is shown clearly at the Budokai, and it was no different than what Goku and Vegeta display.

Spoiler

Forget the lightning, the aura itself seals the deal for me.

As for Dabra's confidence in taking on the Siyans after seeing Goku's 3000 Kiri reading, the Daizenshuu also claims that the older models are limited to 3,000, which is an odd thing to include when that is exactly where Goku's reading was.

Why is Gohan holding back his SSJ2 form? There is no good answer here. Imo Toriyama wasn't considering the Budokai when he was writing this part. Gohan showed himself to be able to transform into SSJ2 at will, but later on Goku stresses that he needs to get angry, and Gohan confirms that he isn't like he was before. It's terrible writing, but Gohan being drawn consistently in SSJ form is enough for me. The retcon is also supported by the fact that Kaioshin was incredibly impressed by Base Vegeta's performance against Pocus. You can call it lazy if you want, but there is no denying that this portion of the story is a complete mess.

 

[Alin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dragon Ball always seems to be very on the nose when discussing power differences and different transformations. The very fact that they made a big deal of Gohan going SSJ2 at the Budokai, coupled with the fact that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan didn't seem to take Babidi's ship all that serious, makes me think Gohan was in the original SSJ.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But it isn't only the lightning that is missing. SSJ2 has a distinctly different aura compared to SSJ1.

Much like the lightning, the aura can be chalked up to showing one as more visually impressive than the other, not to mention Goku and Vegeta being in a heated battle. You also have Vegeta showcasing a similar aura to the SS2s at the Cell Game, so unless arguing Vegeta was on a level higher than Boo Arc SSJ Gohan, the aura being an indication of their power is a pretty weak stance:

Spoiler

As for Dabra's confidence in taking on the Siyans after seeing Goku's 3000 Kiri reading, the Daizenshuu also claims that the older models are limited to 3,000, which is an odd thing to include when that is exactly where Goku's reading was.

Babidi didn't request an older model though. He clearly ordered to be given the biggest Kiri reader they had in stock, not to mention we see from the visual difference between his and Lord :bitch's that it was a different model from the one incapable of reading SS2 Gohan's level. The Daizenshuu entry also shows the older model used at the 25th TB when talking about this.

Imo Toriyama wasn't considering the Budokai when he was writing this part.

Yet he clearly drew back to it after Pui Pui's death when Shin mentioned holding Gohan in place.

Gohan showed himself to be able to transform into SSJ2 at will, but later on Goku stresses that he needs to get angry, and Gohan confirms that he isn't like he was before.

He tells Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell though, rather than referring to at the Budokai which Toriyama still remembered. If using SS2 was enough to change things against Dabura, it'd seem like the more recent event in Gohan's memory would be better to draw from.

The retcon is also supported by the fact that Kaioshin was incredibly impressed by Base Vegeta's performance against Pocus.

Leaving aside how Shin remembered Gohan's power after the event, it's worth noting he had no way of comparing Vegeta to the others yet and Vegeta had yet to make a direct statement of being superior to Gohan. For all Shin knew, Gohan was by far the strongest of the three and Vegeta may have been the weakest whilst getting in over his head. It's not until after killing Pui Pui that the Cell comparison is made and Vegeta says he only needs to watch out for Dabura's spit, after all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dragon Ball always seems to be very on the nose when discussing power differences and different transformations. The very fact that they made a big deal of Gohan going SSJ2 at the Budokai, coupled with the fact that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan didn't seem to take Babidi's ship all that serious, makes me think Gohan was in the original SSJ.

If anything, power comparisons being on the nose would support Gohan being SS2. Goku refers to Dabura as equal to Cell without comparing a specific form, which would suggest he's talking about Cell at his best. The only characters that made a big deal about SS2 Gohan were Shin and Kibito, with the former later telling the latter that Gohan was more impressive than Kibito saw.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea really not looking for a huge back and forth here. Both sides require flimsy assumptions with no factual evidence, as you are completely assuming Toriyama's rationale for drawing Gohan differently than every other SSJ2 in the series. The one panel of Cell Games Vegeta doesn't really say much when he is shown to have the regular aura directly below. It's easy to pick out one panel in the manga to suit your cause, but the fact of the matter is that Super Saiyan 2 has always had a distinct aura and lightning, and Gohan had neither of those against Dabra. I'd rather look at the hundreds of examples of consistent aura than one random panel of SSJ Vegeta having a similar looking aura for just a moment.

 

[GSM123]

Also worth noting the Kili Meter was on the beginning of the scale, not at it’s end.

On the subject at matter, I don’t think the SSJ2 side requires any assumptions tbh. How auras manifests are more of a general trait that varies according to Toriyama’s will rather than factual rules. In Gohan’s confirmed SSJ1 appearances he doesn’t even have an aura… And against Dabra is aura is very thin, closer to that of a Pre CG Super Saiyan. Seems like sparks were skipped for the sake of showing how weak Gohan has grown.

 

[SSJ2]

But that in itself is an assumption, unless Toriyama has directly stated that. When Gohan transforms against Kibito, Vegeta immediately comments on how much weaker Gohan has become. If the aura was meant to display his power, why would it show a "powerful aura" here. Vegeta contradicts Gohan being powerful from the get-go, and is later infuriated by his weakness against Dabra. That is consistent if anything. For the aura to randomly change later on, it is an assumption to state why it happened. Unless there is an interview from AT or a quote in the manga I am missing, by definition it is an assumption.

There is no need for the aura to portray Gohan as weak when Vegeta does a great job of shoving that point down our throats.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yea really not looking for a huge back and forth here. Both sides require flimsy assumptions with no factual evidence, as you are completely assuming Toriyama's rationale for drawing Gohan differently than every other SSJ2 in the series.

Not really a complete assumption. Whilst video games aren't the best source to draw from, SPC's character entry in Budokai Tenkaichi has something very interesting to say on this:

"Cell's appearance has changed little in this new form, but as a testament to his new power, his body is now surrounded by a lightning-like aura similar to that of a Super Saiyan 2." - Perfect-form Perfect Cell's Character Illustration, Budokai Tenkaichi

The "testament to his new power" point is very telling as to the purpose behind the distinctive SS2 traits, not to mention the example I mentioned before of SSJ Vegetto showing lightning. You've also got the manga and several guidebooks noting it as him "powering up like Gohan".

The one panel of Cell Games Vegeta doesn't really say much when he is shown to have the regular aura directly below. It's easy to pick out one panel in the manga to suit your cause, but the fact of the matter is that Super Saiyan 2 has always had a distinct aura and lightning, and Gohan had neither of those against Dabra. I'd rather look at the hundreds of examples of consistent aura than one random panel of SSJ Vegeta having a similar looking aura for just a moment.

Except it's not just one example. This sort of aura is seen surrounding him several more times during the Cell Game.

Spoiler

Not to mention other fighters of who's level Boo Arc SSJ Gohan should be around:

Spoiler

I'm willing to concede that the lack of lightning is a point of contention when discussing the art, though arguing based on the aura that's drawn inconsistently for SSJs is definitely something I'd say holds no weight.

But that in itself is an assumption, unless Toriyama has directly stated that. When Gohan transforms against Kibito, Vegeta immediately comments on how much weaker Gohan has become. If the aura was meant to display his power, why would it show a "powerful aura" here.

Whilst Vegeta sheds light on Gohan having weakened, a major point of the scene is to display how impressive he is to Kibito and Babidi's minions, which would make lightning more fitting here. As for more in-universe explanations, it can be a lot easier to look impressive when standing still compared to actually fighting.
I'll admit the latter point is somewhat of an assumption, but let's not forget that a lot of the points about the narrative for the SSJ side require some heavy assumptions to such as assuming Toriyama retconned the scene despite Shin making mention of it, assuming Goku was referring to a weaker Cell when comparing Dabura for no real reason, etc.

 

[GSM123]

But that in itself is an assumption, unless Toriyama has directly stated that. When Gohan transforms against Kibito, Vegeta immediately comments on how much weaker Gohan has become. If the aura was meant to display his power, why would it show a "powerful aura" here. Vegeta contradicts Gohan being powerful from the get-go, and is later infuriated by his weakness against Dabra. That is consistent if anything. For the aura to randomly change later on, it is an assumption to state why it happened. Unless there is an interview from AT or a quote in the manga I am missing, by definition it is an assumption.

There is no need for the aura to portray Gohan as weak when Vegeta does a great job of shoving that point down our throats.

Kibito, Kaioshin, Yamu and :bitch were all very impressed by his power, and it was used to fill about half of Boo’s Meter. IIRC Vegeta only says something like “He was much, much better when he killed Cell…” and doesn’t really

If the aura is redundant since Vegeta’s getting his point across already, can’t the same be said about sparks since Kaioshin is already saying Gohan’s better than before? And Gohan implies he’s doing his best without getting angry?

 

[SSJ2]

Personally I don't think the video game statement is relevant when discussing Toriyama's intent within the manga. But even if assuming that quote to be true, it still doesn't explain the physical reasoning for Gohan's aura changing. Are we saying that Gohan's aura has a mind of its own now? If Gohan's power isn't changing, why would the aura change at all? Even half power Kid-Gohan had lightning in his aura, and imo this would have been the perfect time to portray Gohan with a weak aura, yet AT decided to keep his consistent.

Even with your examples of the SSJ aura lacking 100% consistency, I'd say it is fair to say that 99% of the panels in the manga are consistent. I could pull up hundreds of chapters showing SSJ1 to have a consistent aura. The few outliers don't overrule the majority imo. SSJ2 is really no different. There was what, 1 panel where SSJ2 Vegeta was lacking lightning? Again, I'd rather go with the plethora of cases that show lightning and the SSJ2 aura.

Whilst Vegeta sheds light on Gohan having weakened, a major point of the scene is to display how impressive he is to Kibito and Babidi's minions, which would make lightning more fitting here. As for more in-universe explanations, it can be a lot easier to look impressive when standing still compared to actually fighting.
I'll admit the latter point is somewhat of an assumption, but let's not forget that a lot of the points about the narrative for the SSJ side require some heavy assumptions to such as assuming Toriyama retconned the scene despite Shin making mention of it, assuming Goku was referring to a weaker Cell when comparing Dabura for no real reason, etc.

That is really the only point I'm trying to make here. This is a subject that until we get a direct quote from Toriyama cannot be proven factually. There has to be an assumption on both sides to make the logic worse. For example, Shin might mention the Budokai scene later, but what does he tell Kibito?

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

Wasn't Kibito standing in front of SSJ2 Gohan? You are saying the point of the scene was for Gohan to look powerful for Kibito, but Kibito doesn't even remember Gohan's power! Some point AT made only for Kibito to forget... As I said before, the writing is undeniably atrocious in this segment of the story. There is no factual answer for this thread.

 

[PorchMaster]

Goku's battle with Cell proved that a SSJ1 can still be fatigued after a tough battle, so I don't see how that's indicative of Gohan using SSJ2 here. In fact, if he were SSJ2, that isn't quite in line with how SPC damaged Gohan to the extent that he lost over half his ki from one unguarded finger blast when Dabura's ki attack only did cosmetic damage to Gohan. Also, the ki meter didn't move much at all from their fight while they filled up the remaining half of the meter in a matter of minutes when Galu and Vegeta were fighting in SSJ2.

Altogether, the story makes as much sense whether Gohan is a SSJ1 or SSJ2. Since Toriyama made the very conscious effort to draw Gohan with an SSJ1 aura in both his battles with Boo and Dabura, that is what I support. I also would add that it makes little sense for Dabura to call Vegeta the perfect warrior if he's weaker than him without SSJ2, and that's a form he wouldn't display until fighting Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

Gohan and Dabra's fight wasn't even said to move the meter at all, yet Goku and Vegeta's extremely brief fight filled the energy nearly instantly. Gohan's statement about Vegeta/Goku's damage being higher due to being SSJ2s wouldn't really make much sense if he and Dabra were also fighting above Super Saiyan level.

 

[PorchMaster]

Yeah, SPC is clearly quite a bit weaker than SSJ2 Boo arc Galu or Majin Vegeta, and he still crippled Gohan with a single unguarded blast. Meanwhile, Dabura shot Gohan with a surprise blast and it didn't do anything other than ripping his clothes.

 

[GSM123]

Dabra was simply too weak compared to Gohan to do any damage: Gohan was often avoiding his blows even if in a half assed way, and the one solid shot Dabra got (which actually raised the meter a bit btw) was a blast that barely hurt Gohan. On the other hand, Goku and Vegeta were pummeling each other pretty badly.

[mention]Kenshi[/mention] honestly I wouldn't call that a "very conscious effort" when a plain white aura is much simplier than a sharp aura with lighting, so it's not like h's going out of his way here.

[mention]SSJ2[/mention] Yeah, but shouldn't they be there all the time if they're key details? Like SSJ golden hair or SSJ3 long hair? I don't think going with that logic works because correlation doesn't imply causation, and sparks have been used to describe power since before any of the forms were conceived.

 

[SSJ2]

That's exactly what an outlier is GSM. Points of data that go against the established norm, but get disregarded due to going against consistency.

https://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/prc/section1/prc16.htm

 

[PorchMaster]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention] Any other time that the SSJ2 form was explicitly accessed in the manga, the form always had lightning and a stronger, more jagged aura to go along with it. Unlike Toei, Toriyama was quite consistent about this, and even had Galu show the forms back to back with the differences laid out against Fat Boo. I simply don't see an argument that overrides the lack of lightning (especially when even a standing SSJ2 always had the fierce aura), and there is evidence on the SSJ1 side such as Gohan stating going beyond the Super Saiyan was the reason the ki meter filled up so fast despite him not watching the fight.

 

[PorchMaster]

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