Gohan vs Dabura poll

[SSJ2]

I was actually going to point out how much of a fact Gohan being a SSJ2 is, but then I saw Pakl’s reply and cringed at what I was about to become.

?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Regarding the guidebooks, isn't there also an entry that states Gohan didn't use SSJ2 after the Budokai?

There is in the video games (Tenkaichi trilogy and Raging Blast games), though the video games are all over the place on the matter. BT1 states this, yet has Gohan be a SS2 in story mode against Dabura and Boo and the Ultimate Battle mode has Dabura > SS2 Gohan > SPC. Whilst BT1's rankings for Ultimate Battle can be all over the place, this one seems very intentional (as does one of Shin Budokai 2's survival trials that seem to be based on powerscaling rank Dabura above SPC) and you have Dabura's profile in BT1 and Raging Blast 2 referring to him as equal to Cell without specifying a specific level for Cell much as all the guidebooks do, so the statement still seems hazy, especially when most of the character profiles for SS2 Gohan cite his reason for him not transforming later as unknown.

 

[GSM123]

I was actually going to point out how much of a fact Gohan being a SSJ2 is, but then I saw Pakl’s reply and cringed at what I was about to become.

?

Pakl = Jerk for trying to pass off his opinion as a fact
GSM = Almost passed his own opinion as a fact

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Pakl = Jerk for trying to pass off his opinion as a fact
GSM = Almost passed his own opinion as a fact

You have almost allowed this dark logic to twist your mind until now, until now you have almost become the very thing you sword to destroy.

 

[GSM123]

Pakl = Jerk for trying to pass off his opinion as a fact
GSM = Almost passed his own opinion as a fact

You have almost allowed this dark logic to twist your mind until now, until now you have almost become the very thing you sword to destroy.

Do not lecture on me, CC. I see through the lies of SSJ2. I’ve brought peace, freedom and security to my new forum!

 

[Alin]

Given that Super Saiyan 2's most distinguishing feature is the lightning, and that Gohan vs. Dabura has an aura more consistent with Super Saiyan, I think it's safe to assume he was SSJ. This isn't twenty years later (when doesn't know what SSJ2 is) so I think it's likely intentional.

 

[GSM123]

Given that Super Saiyan 2's most distinguishing feature is the lightning, and that Gohan vs. Dabura has an aura more consistent with Super Saiyan, I think it's safe to assume he was SSJ. This isn't twenty years later (when doesn't know what SSJ2 is) so I think it's likely intentional.

Only a BernieBro would think that. Are you sure, Mystic?

 

[Alin]

Given that Super Saiyan 2's most distinguishing feature is the lightning, and that Gohan vs. Dabura has an aura more consistent with Super Saiyan, I think it's safe to assume he was SSJ. This isn't twenty years later (when doesn't know what SSJ2 is) so I think it's likely intentional.

Only a BernieBro would think that. Are you sure, Mystic?

Now I'm not so sure.

 

[ahill1]

Well, couldn't we argue Vegeta was a SSJ against Pui Pui under the "it makes more sense he'd be one" logic? After all, it makes little sense Vegeta wouldn't use SSJ against a foe Kaioshin awares him to be cautious against. Not to mention it wouldn't make much sense for Kaioshin to be that surprised and shocked by someone at base's caliber when a SSJ2 moments before didn't warrant such reactions. But the artwork isn't contested here. While there isn't such blatant difference in regards to SSJ and 2, I'd say the artwork should be as valid as a directment statement treating of a media that uses the visual aspect as half of its narrative.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That's a pretty big strawman there. Regardless of the visual differences between the two Super Saiyan forms, their difference is minimal compared to Base and SSJ, not to mention Vegeta would still have no reason to treat Shin's concerns as viable and even refers to Pui Pui as a worthless opponent.
The artwork is indeed important, no doubt about that, but as you said that is half of the narrative. The other half of statements and general conventions of the series' story structure point more towards the SS2 route and the aspect isn't 100% on SSJ portrayal with things such as the hairstyle comparisons and a select few panels featuring SS2 without lightning or SSJ characters with lightning. Again, the artwork supports SSJ more so than 2, but isn't absolute about it.

 

[ahill1]

Regardless of the visual differences between the two Super Saiyan forms, their difference is minimal compared to Base and SSJ

That still shouldn't turn the comparison void. Even if the difference isn't so blatant, it's still visible to the eyes of the reader.

not to mention Vegeta would still have no reason to treat Shin's concerns as viable 

I don't see why he wouldn't when he's facing an unknown warrior, with no sensible chi and to whom a still mysterious character like Shin advises not to underestimate.

The artwork is indeed important, no doubt about that, but as you said that is half of the narrative. 

Which I think should tip off the scales when the other half doesn't directly state Gohan was a SSJ2.

isn't 100% on SSJ portrayal with things such as the hairstyle comparisons 

Considering Gohan had also one strand of hair while in SSJ at the Budôkai, I guess the artwork simply changed in this aspect.

select few panels featuring SS2 without lightning or SSJ characters with lightning

Only a diminute amount of panels though, that come off more as outliers given the big majority depicting the distincts SSJs with their own traits. It isn't comparable with the trait being absent for the whole duration of a story.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That still shouldn't turn the comparison void. Even if the difference isn't so blatant, it's still visible to the eyes of the reader.

Not for Gohan VS Dabura it shouldn't, I agree, though the false equivalence with Vegeta VS Pui Pui really has no bearing on this.

not to mention Vegeta would still have no reason to treat Shin's concerns as viable
I don't see why he wouldn't when he's facing an unknown warrior, with no sensible chi and to whom a still mysterious character like Shin advises not to underestimate.

Vegeta has been shown many times to give no credence to the opinions of others and starting by testing out his opponents (eg. his fight with #18). He and the other 2 Saiyans were well aware Pui Pui was no threat from the start as well despite Shin's caution, so again, really not equivalent to the Gohan VS Dabura battle.

Which I think should tip off the scales when the other half doesn't directly state Gohan was a SSJ2.

Indeed it doesn't, yet you'd have to ignore huge chunks of what's said in order to make having him as a SSJ fit.

Considering Gohan had also one strand of hair while in SSJ at the Budôkai, I guess the artwork simply changed in this aspect.

As I said before, Gohan's hairstyle has been shown to change when in a rage before such as when watching the Cell Juniors injure his friends. No reason to assume things would be anything different when in an uncontrollable rage watching Videl get beaten.

Only a diminute amount of panels though, that come off more as outliers given the big majority depicting the distincts SSJs with their own traits. It isn't comparable with the trait being absent to the whole duration of a story.

Yeah, not arguing that they're of equal amount. Just saying that these outliers still exist beyond being just a one time thing.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] do you think it’s possible Gohan was a SSJ2 when he tranformed against :bitch and when pulling the sword as well?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Against Lord :bitch, probably not as the lightning would've definitely been present there with the context of the scene and neither Shin nor Yamu keyed in on his power completely yet. For his hairstyle, I'd say that (as I've already mentioned) it's due to the rage he had putting him on the verge of it much like how his hair spiked up significantly along with his Ki increase when enraged when watching the Cell Juniors.
For the Z-Sword scene, having him as a SS2 makes sense though when considering the whole Kibito situation and Shin's statement. It obviously makes little sense for Shin to say Kibito hasn't seen how amazing Gohan is if he's already sensed SS2 Gohan if Gohan's using one form lower (unless he got some unacknowledged Zenkai that was that YUGE 2).

 

[ahill1]

Not for Gohan VS Dabura it shouldn't, I agree, though the false equivalence with Vegeta VS Pui Pui really has no bearing on this.

Why not? Vegeta being a SSJ there makes more sense than vice-versa. Not only because the warrior worries Shin, but due to this latter reaction in face of what he has shown previously when Gohan was a SSJ2.

Vegeta has been shown many times to give no credence to the opinions of others and starting by testing out his opponents (eg. his fight with #18). He and the other 2 Saiyans were well aware Pui Pui was no threat from the start as well despite Shin's caution, so again, really not equivalent to the Gohan VS Dabura battle.

He didn't start fighting #18 while in base. He also didn't lose time fighting Semi Cell in SSJ even when he was powerful enough for such, for instance. If DBS is anything to go by, the trait of testing the waters with the opponents is more prominent on Goku than on Vegeta, as seen by this latter's annoyance at Goku's numerous times doing it.

Indeed it doesn't, yet you'd have to ignore huge chunks of what's said in order to make having him as a SSJ fit.

Which I think is more passable than completely ignoring the entirety of one half. The story lends credence to the ssj1 position in some instances as well, such as Gohan saying "if powers like that clash [Goku and Majin Vegeta's SSJ2]" the damage is too big, with the discriminatory way he referred to the whole thing making more sense if he himself weren't using SSJ2 there. SSJ2 is given as a plateau of power that damages pretty quickly and Gohan seemed to face this as a realization while his fight against Dabura should have already rung the bell for him if he were a ssj2.

As I said before, Gohan's hairstyle has been shown to change when in a rage before such as when watching the Cell Juniors injure his friends. No reason to assume things would be anything different when in an uncontrollable rage watching Videl get beaten.

Sure, which maybe indicates he was a SSJ but more enraged than normal? An enraged SSJ2 that still hadn't received anger enough to ascend?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Why not? Vegeta being a SSJ there makes more sense than vice-versa. Not only because the warrior worries Shin, but due to this latter reaction in face of what he has shown previously when Gohan was a SSJ2.

Not when all three Saiyans treat Pui Pui as nothing to worry about and Shin was completely unaware of Vegeta's power in the first place. Shin's concerns mean nothing when it was already apparent Dabura was Babidi's best fighter and suppressed Lord :bitch and Yamu didn't present Babidi's lesser henchmen as anything to revere.

He didn't start fighting #18 while in base. He also didn't lose time fighting Semi Cell in SSJ even when he was powerful enough for such, for instance. If DBS is anything to go by, the trait of testing the waters with the opponents is more prominent on Goku than on Vegeta, as seen by this latter's annoyance at Goku's numerous times doing it.

Gero had already given him a precedent of what to expect and it's not as though he couldn't sense Cell's Ki.

Which I think is more passable than completely ignoring the entirety of one half. The story lends credence to the ssj1 position in some instances as well, such as Gohan saying "if powers like that clash [Goku and Majin Vegeta's SSJ2]" the damage is too big, with the discriminatory way he referred to the whole thing making more sense if he himself weren't using SSJ2 there. SSJ2 is given as a plateau of power that damages pretty quickly and Gohan seemed to face this as a realization while his fight against Dabura should have already rung the bell for him if he were a ssj2.

Yet that situation seems to be the only one supporting it as opposed to the rest pointing to him using something greater than what he showed at the Budokai. He also says it in a way that came as a new revelation to Shin despite what he'd seen at the Budokai. If anything, it seems to simply suggest Goku and Vegeta are on a tier above Gohan's own SS2 form.
Damage or fatigue rates tend to be pretty plot dependent. The one thing that would support this route is Gohan's damage against SPC, yet it's not as though a precedent for off-guard damage wasn't made apparent long before such transformations were a thing (Goku and Piccolo's off-guard damage against each other at the 23rd TB, Cui believing not even 24k Vegeta could survive an off-guard Ki barrage). Also, MSSJ's whole point is to reduce stamina loss, yet Gohan quickly lost a lot of Ki from his brief fight with Dabura. The damage for Boo's meter are also without much consistency when Babidi believed Pui Pui beating 3 Base Saiyans would equate to the Ki drained from SS2 Gohan.

Sure, which maybe indicates he was a SSJ but more enraged than normal? An enraged SSJ2 that still hadn't received anger enough to ascend?

If it was apparent he was filled with rage throughout every moment of the battle, then sure, but we're given no indication he can do such a thing. He says he's angry, yet makes it apparent it was nowhere near as much as against Cell. That, and there's no reason to believe he was being fuelled at all by rage when drawing out the Z-Sword despite the distinctive single bang.

 

[ahill1]

Not when all three Saiyans treat Pui Pui as nothing to worry about and Shin was completely unaware of Vegeta's power in the first place. Shin's concerns mean nothing when it was already apparent Dabura was Babidi's best fighter and suppressed Lord  and Yamu didn't present Babidi's lesser henchmen as anything to revere.

Knowing Pui Pui is no big deal doesn't equate to him being fodder to even their simpler states. They still knew they had their SSJ2 in reserve and that explains their confidence.

Kaioshin also used general terms after witnessing Vegeta, encompassing all the Saiyajins after seeing base Vegeta in action, so it hardly seems the surprise stemmed merely from Vegeta himself.

Gero had already given him a precedent of what to expect and it's not as though he couldn't sense Cell's Ki.

Shin's worries and the fact that damage equated to energy for Boo were also good precedents for him not to take Pui Pui lightly, so using only his base state there would make little sense... yet we know he only used base there because that's what the artwork distincly points to.

Yet that situation seems to be the only one supporting it as opposed to the rest pointing to him using something greater than what he showed at the Budokai. He also says it in a way that came as a new revelation to Shin despite what he'd seen at the Budokai. If anything, it seems to simply suggest Goku and Vegeta are on a tier above Gohan's own SS2 form.

Shin hadn't seen Gohan in action there so it makes sense he wouldn't know the extent of a SSJ2's true capability. Even if this is the most blatant reasoning on the SSJ's side, it's still a pretty telling one regarding AT's intent (you'd think that would be a perfect moment for Toriyama to have Gohan clarifying which form he was using but no) and in conjuction with the art should paint a more likely scenario on this debacle.

The damage for Boo's meter are also without much consistency when Babidi believed Pui Pui beating 3 Base Saiyans would equate to the Ki drained from SS2 Gohan.

At least so had Dabura and Babidi thought. Babidi also thought hundreds of earthlings could have filled Boo's meter to almost half, so it wouldn't surprise me if they were full of BS.

If it was apparent he was filled with rage throughout every moment of the battle, then sure, but we're given no indication he can do such a thing. He says he's angry, yet makes it apparent it was nowhere near as much as against Cell. That, and there's no reason to believe he was being fuelled at all by rage when drawing out the Z-Sword despite the distinctive single bang.

Since kid Gohan's hair dien't seem to go back after that point, it's possible.

But yeah, the Z sword sequence seems to go against it, so the most likely answer to me is that the design of his hair simply changed. We see that Ultimate Gohan also grew a bang of hair in between the battle against Super Boo and after Kid Boo's battle, prior to the 10 years.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Honestly, I'm fine with either side at this point.

While I believe the art tells us he's Super Saiyan, I feel like the story tells us he's a Super Saiyan 2.

Gohan needing to get pissed and summon his dormant power seems like a necessity when it comes to defeating Dabra. I feel like extreme measures like that wouldn't be needed if he only needed to turn Super Saiyan 2 and one-shot Dabra.

 

[VampireWicked]

Gohan was an AscendedSaiyan (SS2)

1. Gohan didn't train for 7years so there's no reason his PowerLevel didn't drop & as an AscendedSaiyan (SS2) he wouldn't be as strong as he was vs PerfectCell.

2. Why fight against Dabura with the world at stake & not go all out withholding AscendedSaiyan.

3. Vegeta/Goku's reactions to him during the fight leans more towards Gohan as an AscendedSaiyan (SS2) being out of practices & weaker then Gahan being SuperSaiyan.

It makes sense he was an AscendedSaiyan (SS2) just weaker.

I DISAGREE!
I've for the longest said Gohan vs Dabura that Gohan was AscendedSaiyan (SS2).
I'v said it forever Gohan vs Dabura that Gohan was AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Gohan vs Dabura that Gohan was AscendedSaiyan (SS2)Gohan vs Dabura that Gohan was AscendedSaiyan (SS2)Gohan vs Dabura that Gohan was AscendedSaiyan (SS2)

NOPE!
Re-thinking it it's what was said of how Gohan didn't train in those 7yrs, how Gohan was rusty & weaker, how he did better against Cell when he was a Teen blah blah blah.


I think this makes absolute sense:
1. Why fight against Dabura with the world at stake & not go all out.
2. Vegeta/Goku's reactions to him during the fight leans more towards Gohan being out of practices & weaker.

Re-thinking it I believe Gohan fighting Dabura that GOHAN WAS A SUPER SAIYAN vs DABURA.
Because being out o practice, couldn't get angry, Dabura holding his own against a Transformed Gohan like he was nothing.

Yeah Gohan when Videl was gettting beat, & against Dabura Gohan was SuperSaiyan FullPowered because that was the absolute best he could do.
Gohan was weaker, Gohan wasn't AscendedSaiyan (SS2) because he couldn't go AscendedSaiyan (SS2).
At best Gohan could only achieve G4.

 

[VampireWicked]

Honestly, I'm fine with either side at this point.

While I believe the art tells us he's Super Saiyan, I feel like the story tells us he's a Super Saiyan 2.

Gohan needing to get pissed and summon his dormant power seems like a necessity when it comes to defeating Dabra. I feel like extreme measures like that wouldn't be needed if he only needed to turn Super Saiyan 2 and one-shot Dabra.

I think the story tells us he can't.
Something I missed till just recently.

Dabura was holding his own against Gohan because Gohan was only G4, SuperSaiyan FullPowered.
The same thing PerfectCell did against Goku.

[youtube]BX27gVfAbn0[/youtube]

Dabura may only be PerfectCell warm up level, while Adult Gohan at best could only access G4 Goku level at most.
So it wouldn't matter if Gohan got angry I doubt he would be able to achieve or maintain AscendedSaiyan (SS2).
Remember in SUPER?

[youtube]wSfv_0eFNKA[/youtube]

The art was no mistake I believe Akira Toriyama knew exactly what he was doing.
Adult Gohan before the Potential Unlock could only go SuperSaiyan.
Videl getting beat up, fighting Dabura, pulling out the sword, the Artwork.
Gohan was a SuperSaiyan G4 cause that was his limit.​