Gohan vs Dabura poll

[PorchMaster]

Delete this

 

[GSM123]

I don't think using auras as the key detail are a good method because they simply indicate power, as the Daizenshuu 5 puts it for sparks. SSJ2s (And some SSJ1s) are very powerful and it makes sense for them to show sparks. But Gohan hasn't trained for 7 years, so it makes sense he'd be lacking such details: After all even his SSJ1 form lacked an aura altogether. It emphasizes how weak he's grown, not the form he's in. Otherwise we could say he's weaker than even Cell Games Super Saiyans.

Another example is how Future Trunks display the same aura as CG Goku when he transforms to kill the twins, or how Majin Vegeta showed sparks when he got pissed off at Babidi. It's simply showing they're powerful guys, not the form they are in.

 

[SSJ2]

A lot of conjecture and opinion there, still no facts.

 

[PorchMaster]

There are only two instances of SSJ1 characters having lightning, and both were only momentary. Meanwhile, Gohan has the same aura and hair as he did when he went SSJ in response to Lord :bitch stomping Videl, which was before his SSJ2 demonstration to Kibito. There's no question which side the visual evidence supports, and the same man who drew the art wrote the story as well.

The only continuity wherein Gohan uses SSJ2 against Dabura is the anime's.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Was going to make a response to SSJ2 and Kenshi a while ago, but accidentally clicked the close button on Chrome and lost the post . I'll make a more detailed rebuttal, but really lack the motivation after that.

In response to the hairstyle point though, it's worth noting Gohan was enraged during that instance. We also see from when the Cell Juniors attacked his friends that his hair changed from its usual shape when enraged:

Spoiler

I'd say Gohan's case at the 25th TB should definitely be the same when considering how he's clearly shown with two small bangs in prior instances such as sparring with Goten, thus making the hairstyle far more indicative of SS2. The lightning is still an issue and the aura argument for SSJ is quite inconsistent even if aura remains mostly consistent for SS2, though I'd say this is one thing that stops the visuals from fully supporting Gohan being a SSJ.

 

[GSM123]

If anything the fact he was pissed to fight :bitch would imply he's a SSJ2 there, after all SSJ1 is something natural to him, unlike his true power as a SSJ2. There's the hairstyle as CC pointed out (One bang rather than two) as well.

 

[PorchMaster]

Every instance of Gohan transforming after his training with Goten shows him with a single bang. These not only include him being enraged at Videl being Spopobitch'd :bitch and his fights with Boo and Dabura, but also him pulling out the Z Sword as well as a few panels of him standing around with no aura. It's highly doubtful he'd be in such a relaxed state in SSJ2 when the only instances of a SSJ2 lacking aura altogether are ones where the user was severely damaged or mentally broken (such as Gohan following Cell's declaration that he'll kill everyone by exploding in a minute, or after he was shot in the arm, stunned by , etc.). The art therefore isn't the best evidence when it comes to the hair. The aura, however, is unmistakably that of a SSJ1, and this was the case even after Gohan did a large power up to blast Boo's shell. I can't in good conscience say the art supports Gohan being SSJ2 in the least.

 

[VampireWicked]

Gohan was an AscendedSaiyan (SS2)

1. Gohan didn't train for 7years so there's no reason his PowerLevel didn't drop & as an AscendedSaiyan (SS2) he wouldn't be as strong as he was vs PerfectCell.

2. Why fight against Dabura with the world at stake & not go all out withholding AscendedSaiyan.

3. Vegeta/Goku's reactions to him during the fight leans more towards Gohan as an AscendedSaiyan (SS2) being out of practices & weaker then Gahan being SuperSaiyan.

It makes sense he was an AscendedSaiyan (SS2) just weaker.

 

[ahill1]

He was in an intermediary stage to me. I think I've come to terms with this line of thinking. It gives both sides credence and works out with Dabura being as strong as Cell and fitting in the overall spot the narrative seemed to be pushing -- too strong for SSJs, but no match for SSJ2s.

 

[Pakl]

Lol. Gohan was a SSjin because Toriyama did not want to spoil us that Vegeta had SSjin 2. It was said that Vegeta and Goku can beat Dabura after all..

Use your brain

 

[SSJ2]

CC doesn't have a brain. He's a 5 time winner of Zeta's Dumbest Member in the yearly awards.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Gohan was a SSjin because Toriyama did not want to spoil us that Vegeta had SSjin 2.

If that was the case, he spoiled it right from the start of the arc with Vegeta saying he wonders whether or not Gohan was still the stronger of the two. It would make no sense for him to only be referring to equal forms either, given Vegeta's constant desire to be the strongest overall.

 

[SSJ2]

Was going to make a response to SSJ2 and Kenshi a while ago, but accidentally clicked the close button on Chrome and lost the post . I'll make a more detailed rebuttal, but really lack the motivation after that.

All good man I wouldn't worry about it. Like I said I'm not even interested in debating this subject due to lack of factual evidence. We've both made our positions clear.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yeah, I'd concede that it all comes down to which set of evidence you put more stock in. Art leans more towards SSJ (beyond the one bang that muddles the situation) whereas statements and narrative conventions lean more towards SS2 with few exceptions. Then when taking into account supplementary sources, the situation gets even more hazy with most guidebooks pointing towards SS2 (Daizenshuu even outright saying so), whereas entries in video games consistently point to SSJ (despite Budokai Tenkaichi's story mode having Gohan be a SS2 against Dabura/Boo even when his profile entry states he only used SS2 against Kibito ).
Overall, it comes down to whether you put more stock in the art or statements, which is a difficult situation when you have to choose whether the visuals of a visual medium take precedence over the narrative of a story with clear continuity. I'd side with the latter more so as despite the art for SS2's traits tending to be consistent, there are a few outliers when it comes to lightning beyond that one Vegeta example (take Gohan being grabbed by Lord :bitch even prior to the succ, for instance) or artistic errors he's made in the past on occasion, so I'd put more stock in the plot not being as much of an inconsistent mess as it could be (though it has its problems either way such as Dabura's off-guard attack doing less damage and the battle providing less energy than Babidi believing Pui Pui could get from beating 3 Base Saiyans).

 

[SSJ2]

Regarding the guidebooks, isn't there also an entry that states Gohan didn't use SSJ2 after the Budokai?

 

[Pakl]

Gohan was a SSjin because Toriyama did not want to spoil us that Vegeta had SSjin 2.

If that was the case, he spoiled it right from the start of the arc with Vegeta saying he wonders whether or not Gohan was still the stronger of the two. It would make no sense for him to only be referring to equal forms either, given Vegeta's constant desire to be the strongest overall.

That's vague. You have to remember that the spoiler was for Goku as he was surprised Vegeta transformed into SSjin 2. Even if we should assume he has SSjin 2 based on what you said, it was still not known and had to be a spoiler once Goku and Vegeta started their fight. Not to mention all the other clear indications of why Gohan was a SSjin.

 

[Pakl]

Was going to make a response to SSJ2 and Kenshi a while ago, but accidentally clicked the close button on Chrome and lost the post . I'll make a more detailed rebuttal, but really lack the motivation after that.

All good man I wouldn't worry about it. Like I said I'm not even interested in debating this subject due to lack of factual evidence. We've both made our positions clear.

Gohan was drawn as a SSjin so he is a SSjin. That's the evidence.

 

[SSJ2]

Was going to make a response to SSJ2 and Kenshi a while ago, but accidentally clicked the close button on Chrome and lost the post . I'll make a more detailed rebuttal, but really lack the motivation after that.

All good man I wouldn't worry about it. Like I said I'm not even interested in debating this subject due to lack of factual evidence. We've both made our positions clear.

Gohan was drawn as a SSjin so he is a SSjin. That's the evidence.

Yea I agree, but from a storytelling perspective it makes no sense for Gohan to withhold SSJ2 after struggling against Dabra, and even less sense for him not to use it against Boo.

 

[GSM123]

Was going to make a response to SSJ2 and Kenshi a while ago, but accidentally clicked the close button on Chrome and lost the post . I'll make a more detailed rebuttal, but really lack the motivation after that.

All good man I wouldn't worry about it. Like I said I'm not even interested in debating this subject due to lack of factual evidence. We've both made our positions clear.

I was actually going to point out how much of a fact Gohan being a SSJ2 is, but then I saw Pakl’s reply and cringed at what I was about to become.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That's vague. You have to remember that the spoiler was for Goku as he was surprised Vegeta transformed into SSjin 2. Even if we should assume he has SSjin 2 based on what you said, it was still not known and had to be a spoiler once Goku and Vegeta started their fight. Not to mention all the other clear indications of why Gohan was a SSjin.

You do realise that your reasoning is vague as well, don't you? You're going on the assumption that Goku is a vessel for the audience and not his own character, as well as assuming Goku was surprised about Vegeta having SS2 rather than being surprised at Vegeta's power in general. The former is a meta-narrative reasoning that ignores that what the audience is aware of may not be what Goku is aware of, whereas the latter is weakened by how much Vegeta in general rags on about Gohan's drop in power despite Gohan supposedly having an additional form. Vegeta was also there to view Goku's burst of SS2 (something even someone viewing the fight from much further away like Dabura could pick up on somewhat) and still made it clear he wanted to fight Goku. The evidence of Vegeta being a SS2 is plastered in front of our faces so much even someone of DBS Goku's intelligence can work that out, nevermind someone far smarter like Z Goku.

Since you're a fan of going with meta-narrative reasoning to back up your stance, let me do the same. What purpose would Goku have in comparing Dabura to a weaker version of Cell when not only is he aware of Cell's peak, but comparing Dabura to a more vague and weaker version damages his purpose in the narrative? Much like we can assume Vegeta having SS2 wasn't made apparent (which is completely false), we can also assume Dabura's purpose in the narrative was to show how the previous strongest villain compared to characters in this arc, a purpose which cannot be fulfilled by comparing him to something like the Cell who fought Goku.