Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Uhh, Kaioshin was surprised by base Vegeta beating Pui Pui and said to that that he didn't antecipate such strength... and that was to BASE Vegeta. Shin's perception of their strength, through shitty writing, clearly changed through the story

You’re forgetting Kaioshin admittedly freaked out and forgot Gohan went SSJ2 at the Budokai though. Once he acknowledges it and is no longer under stress there’s no reason to ignore that.

Lmao get off the acid.

Spiky hair, a long bang… I’d say they’re more important than the aura, unless Gohan was a SSJ here.

Spoiler

 

[ahill1]

So why was he acting as though Kibito never witnessed Gohan's power when Kibito himself was the one who commented on Gohan's power being "bottomless"? The standing ki vs fighting ki argument simply doesn't cut it. There was no indication that Gohan's standing ki was that weak, the emphasis was simply that he was weaker than he was against Cell.

Because SSJ2 was ignored. I don't think Toriyama forgot it, he simply went different directions.

@GreatSaiyaman123

You’re forgetting Kaioshin admittedly freaked out and forgot Gohan went SSJ2 at the Budokai though. Once he acknowledges it and is no longer under stress there’s no reason to ignore that.

Why does it matter?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why does it matter?

Why is Kaioshin forgetting Kibito saw SSJ2 Gohan?

 

[ahill1]

Why is Kaioshin forgetting Kibito saw SSJ2 Gohan?

He didn't see Gohan in battle. Btw like I said, I believe the ssj2 part was cut off.

 

[sei'taer]

That entire volume is a mess of contradictions and the reason this is even debated still.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He didn't see Gohan in battle. Btw like I said, I believe the ssj2 part was cut off.

Standing Ki =/= Fighting Ki is a much better argument than retcon/Shin forgot tbh, but I still have my doubts if SSJ1’s fighting power could be stronger than SSJ2’s standing power. Whatever power Gohan showed vs Dabra is definitely more impressive than his power vs Kibito though, regardless of form.

And well, I believe the sparks were cut off.

 

[ahill1]

Standing Ki =/= Fighting Ki is a much better argument than retcon/Shin forgot tbh, but I still have my doubts if SSJ1’s fighting power could be stronger than SSJ2’s standing power. Whatever power Gohan showed vs Dabra is definitely more impressive than his power vs Kibito though, regardless of form.

And well, I believe the sparks were cut off.

Again, he was more impressed about base Vegeta

 

[SIAD]

I believe in the CC theory. Goku compared Dabura to SPC. Therefore, Gohan was an SSJ2.

 

[SSJ2]

Again, he was more impressed about base Vegeta

And then was shocked that the Saiyans were able to unleash greater power than their Base forms.

It's impossible to make sense of the writing no matter what angle you approach it from.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioshin just had a breakdown and forgot a lot of stuff inside the ship. Besides forgetting about SSJ until he saw Goku do it, he also forgot Yakon could eat light.

Also Ahill weren’t you discussing a couple weeks ago about how Kaiosin was specifically surprised by how strong Vegeta was without transformations and how it had nothing to do with SSJ?

 

[Emmeth]

What bothers me is that he easily went SSJ2 in the tournament just a few hours before the fight against Dabra. How come he couldn't do it again? I can't think of an in-universe explanation for this simply because I think it's really poor writing by AT. He should've just made SSJ Gohan enough a reason for Spopo and Yamu to take his energy, but he had to make a stupid decision with the kids going SSJ in the juniors.

 

[Yoshi]

There's a counter for everything, guys!

That may be true, but I actually see no evidence for Gohan being SSJ2 against Dabura. His aura doesn't have lightning and it doesn't flare as much, his hair resembles a SSJ's instead of a SSJ2's, and his eyes look less focused and less intense.

 

[ahill1]

And then was shocked that the Saiyans were able to unleash greater power than their Base forms.

It's impossible to make sense of the writing no matter what angle you approach it from.

I was actually countering the point that Kaioshin saying to Kibito he didn't see all of Gohan's power means he was ssj2. I'm not saying the writing makes sense.

 

[ahill1]

Kaioshin just had a breakdown and forgot a lot of stuff inside the ship. Besides forgetting about SSJ until he saw Goku do it, he also forgot Yakon could eat light.

Also Ahill weren’t you discussing a couple weeks ago about how Kaiosin was specifically surprised by how strong Vegeta was without transformations and how it had nothing to do with SSJ?

Him forgetting it means little to his reactions. The point is that he had a more abrasive and shocking reaction at base Vegeta than at ssj2 Gohan... which doesn't change the implications of base > ssj2 simply because he forgot the latter... because we are comparing how he reacted at both. Ofc I'm not saying base is that strong, only that Kaioshin is way more surprised at the Saiyans due to writing change, likely.

I think that's unlikely. He didn't word it that way. He could have said "even without accessing SSJ they are this strong"... he didn't, he simply said he didn't expect this much. I've argued that before yeah but I find that an unlikely angle.

 

[SSJ2]

I was actually countering the point that Kaioshin saying to Kibito he didn't see all of Gohan's power means he was ssj2. I'm not saying the writing makes sense.

I was actually countering the point that Kaioshin saying to Kibito he didn't see all of Gohan's power means he was ssj2. I'm not saying the writing makes sense.

I was adding to your point.

 

[Tapion]

Nah.

 

[Hector]

How many times must I say it? He was SSJ 1.5

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

Maybe rage was necessary to activate SSJ 2 for Gohan. Videl and Cell, total rage. The fate of the Earth? Nah brah Galu Time

 

[FeatsofPower]

The idea that Cell could be so disrespected doesn't seem right. Especially at a time when Cell's top power is super relevant. It just doesn't add up. I do think as ahill has mentioned, Gohan's shock at the two of them being Super Saiyan 2s is probably the strongest evidence. I guess I will have to submit to the superior logic.

The biggest issues that arise is why didn't anyone just tell Gohan to do what he did at the Budokai. But that's on Toriyama's poor writing choices. We keep trying to fix his Buu Saga mistake, but it does appear Gohan is merely a Super Saiyan.

DBS seems to back this up with Gohan making a big deal about turning SSJ2, when I saw that training scene, it made me feel DBS was definitely implying Gohan never turned SSJ2 against Dabura.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Cell got the same treatment Freeza got at the start of the Androids Saga. You can’t pick and choose which villains stay relevant and which don’t.