Gohan was a SSJ2

[Power Level Guy]

I'm back on the "Gohan was a SSJ2" trail. Art be damned.

I think the dialogue just makes more sense overall and I think we need to force it to make sense with AT's bad writing. There's only two pieces of dialogue that hurt it, I rather rewrite it honestly.

Here's the chain of thought that makes a lot of sense to me.

1. Gohan transforms into SSJ2 easily at the Tournament. Vegeta even scoffs at his power, implying he might be able to beat it.

2. Goku directly says Dabura is no big deal and at this level (perhaps SSJ2) Cell would've been easy to deal with.

3. Only after Goku uses SSJ2 does Vegeta confirm that Goku and Vegeta are above Gohan.

4. Goku uses SSJ2 to kill Yakon, he must not be terribly suppressed if he requires a higher form to explode Yakon. It makes more sense if Goku is using his full power as a SSJ to be the marker for the 3,000 kiri. Dabura thinks he can take out 3 3,000 kiri fighters with ease. This doesn't make sense if SSJ is all that's needed to beat Dabura.

5. Gohan's damage energy although slight, moves the Buu Meter in a way a Super Saiyan wouldn't be able to. Gohan's damage energy must be significant enough to move the meter by 5-6 percent, while still allowing him to maintain enough power to rival Dabura. This isn't numerically possible as a Super Saiyan.

6. No one questions why Gohan isn't a SSJ2, since he easily transformed at the Tournament, surely someone should mention why he isn't even performing at his Tournament level.

7. Gohan's stamina being drained more in his fight with Dabura makes more sense if hes a SSJ2 instead of just a SSJ.

8. Goku tells Gohan to remember the Cell Games to bring out all of his power. If he's only a SSJ, why not just tell him to do what he did at the Budokai? This line from Goku makes so much sense if Gohan is already a SSJ2 and Goku is telling him to use his rage to bring out all of his power.

 

[SSJ2]

You’d have a better point if Dragon Ball was a novel. Considering its a manga, the art is equally as important to the dialogue.

 

[Power Level Guy]

You’d have a better point if Dragon Ball was a novel. Considering its a manga, the art is equally as important to the dialogue.

AT might just be thinking to show his weakness to leave off electricity or something dumb like that.

But yeah, some of his work needs to be retconned or whatever.

 

[Kyo]

The problem is that there are narrative issues no matter which side you pick. It may be that the narrative supports the SSJ2 side a bit more, but it’s still not wholly consistent either way.

The art on the other hand is completely unambiguous. I think going with SSJ2 Gohan is a fun thought experiment that’s worth exploring, but “SSJ2” Gohan and SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta are drawn within the same chapters pretty much. The visual difference is very much intentional.

 

[Power Level Guy]

The problem is that there are narrative issues no matter which side you pick. It may be that the narrative supports the SSJ2 side a bit more, but it’s still not wholly consistent either way.

Agreed. This is a matter of taking the 7/10 option over the 3/10 option. Both sides are flawed, some are more flawed then others.

The art on the other hand is completely unambiguous. I think going with SSJ2 Gohan is a fun thought experiment that’s worth exploring, but “SSJ2” Gohan and SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta are drawn within the same chapters pretty much. The visual difference is very much intentional.

It's intentional no doubt, but perhaps he intended to showcase Gohan as being weaker not necessarily not SSJ2. Or otherwise he forgot. In which case, a helping hand is good here imo.

 

[Kyo]

Gohan was weaker at the Budokai too, but he was drawn like a SSJ2 there is the thing. It could be that Toriyama just decided to portray it differently later on but at this point we can never say.

Certain things are definitely easier to reconcile if Dabura and Gohan surpass the SSJ powers of the Cell Games. I just can’t let go of the art though, like this is supposed to be the one time he draws it differently just because? It’s fucked.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Gohan was weaker at the Budokai too, but he was drawn like a SSJ2 there is the thing. It could be that Toriyama just decided to portray it differently later on but at this point we can never say.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Or he straight up forgot.

Certain things are definitely easier to reconcile if Dabura and Gohan surpass the SSJ powers of the Cell Games. I just can’t let go of the art though, like this is supposed to be the one time he draws it differently just because? It’s fucked.

Well, that's why I think with Toyo's depiction of Future Dabura, we can safely ignore the art. Toyo considers Future Dabura a SSJ2 level fighter.

I don't think it was his intention for us to believe that Future Dabura >>> Present Dabura... I think he picked a side here. And considering it is source material, he's given us an out.

 

[Papasmurf]

The art is the biggest reason why I don't like the SSJ2 side. It'd be one thing if, say, one-armed SSJ2 Gohan from the CG also lacked an SSJ2 aura when he was weakened, but we don't see such a precedent and Toriyama in like a dozen chapters down the line clearly illustrated SSJ and SSJ2 side by side with the differences laid out before having Goku go SSJ3. I don't think he'd depict Gohan with an SSJ aura if his intention was for him to be using the second level. And the SSJ2 side still has logical fallacies such as SSJ Majin Vegeta being expected to wipe the floor with Gohan and Goku, it being obvious that SSJ2 Gohan is still above the SSJ adults, and so on and so forth.

I actually think if DBZ was a novel it'd make the debate clearer since narration would specify whether Gohan was at Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 lol.

 

[Power Level Guy]

The art is the biggest reason why I don't like the SSJ2 side. It'd be one thing if, say, one-armed SSJ2 Gohan from the CG also lacked an SSJ2 aura when he was weakened, but we don't see such a precedent and Toriyama in like a dozen chapters down the line clearly illustrated SSJ and SSJ2 side by side with the differences laid out before having Goku go SSJ3. I don't think he'd depict Gohan with an SSJ aura if his intention was for him to be using the second level. And the SSJ2 side still has logical fallacies such as SSJ Majin Vegeta being expected to wipe the floor with Gohan and Goku, it being obvious that SSJ2 Gohan is still above the SSJ adults, and so on and so forth.

I actually think if DBZ was a novel it'd make the debate clearer since narration would specify whether Gohan was at Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 lol.

Yeah, we still have problems even if the art depicts him as a SSJ2. But I think those are a lot more manageable.

Here's what I would do, make Gohan a SSJ2 and then make Vegeta a SSJ2 from the getgo as well.

That solves like 90% of it. Then I just gotta fix Goku's dialogue and Gohan's later...

It's really 2-3 things, instead of 10...

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah if Vegeta went SSJ2 straight after he was possessed by Babidi, and Goku wasn't surprised by Vegeta's use of the form it'd make the SSJ2 side more or less solid. Official material is often at odds with whether Gohan was SSJ2 or not against Dabura too. One section of the Daizenshuu says he was SSJ2, another just refers to him as a Super Saiyan. Sparking! (Budokai Tenkaichi) also has an entry where they say Gohan only ever used SSJ2 in the Budokai, and DBZ Kakarot defaults him in the SSJ1 form when he fights Dabura (although the player is allowed to transform further). DBZ Kakarot is worth noting because Toriyama participated in the project.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah if Vegeta went SSJ2 straight after he was possessed by Babidi, and Goku wasn't surprised by Vegeta's use of the form it'd make the SSJ2 side more or less solid. Official material is often at odds with whether Gohan was SSJ2 or not against Dabura too. One section of the Daizenshuu says he was SSJ2, another just refers to him as a Super Saiyan. Sparking! (Budokai Tenkaichi) also has an entry where they say Gohan only ever used SSJ2 in the Budokai, and DBZ Kakarot defaults him in the SSJ1 form when he fights Dabura (although the player is allowed to transform further). DBZ Kakarot is worth noting because Toriyama participated in the project.

Yeah, I definitely here that. But like I said, I think Toyo gives us a legit option to override AT even if that's the case. I'm sure AT and Toyo are having this discussion at least once, don't you think?

I think AT just flubbed it, someone had to fix it and Toyo gives us our best line of logic of getting out of it.

 

[Papasmurf]

Knowing Toriyama I bet he didn't even remember not giving Gohan the SSJ2 aura and I think Toyotaro either went by the anime where Gohan was probably SSJ2, or went by that Daizenshuu entry that said he was Super Saiyan 2. Toyotaro seems to follow the Daizenshuu and SEG judging by the small multiplier he gives SSJ2 and SSJ3.

I'd also honestly go with Future Dabura > Present Dabura honestly, because Trunks notes how big of a power up the Z Sword was and he still couldn't match Dabura without SSJ2.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I'd also honestly go with Future Dabura > Present Dabura honestly, because Trunks notes how big of a power up the Z Sword was and he still couldn't match Dabura without SSJ2.

Future Dabura is still going to be above Present Dabura, but I think Toyo makes it clear Dabura is a SSJ2 tier level opponent.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah he most likely goes by the SSJ2 theory, it's just hard to take the implied chains created by the original author's assistant and give it precedence over the original author's artwork choice from back when the actual original manga was being serialized.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yeah he most likely goes by the SSJ2 theory, it's just hard to take the implied chains created by the original author's assistant and give it precedence over the original author's artwork choice from back when the actual original manga was being serialized.

I definitely get that.

 

[GSM123]

Daima convinced me that Dabra is SSJ level.

 

[Hector]

I'm back on the "Gohan was a SSJ2" trail. Art be damned.

I think the dialogue just makes more sense overall and I think we need to force it to make sense with AT's bad writing. There's only two pieces of dialogue that hurt it, I rather rewrite it honestly.

Here's the chain of thought that makes a lot of sense to me.

1. Gohan transforms into SSJ2 easily at the Tournament. Vegeta even scoffs at his power, implying he might be able to beat it.

2. Goku directly says Dabura is no big deal and at this level (perhaps SSJ2) Cell would've been easy to deal with.

3. Only after Goku uses SSJ2 does Vegeta confirm that Goku and Vegeta are above Gohan.

4. Goku uses SSJ2 to kill Yakon, he must not be terribly suppressed if he requires a higher form to explode Yakon. It makes more sense if Goku is using his full power as a SSJ to be the marker for the 3,000 kiri. Dabura thinks he can take out 3 3,000 kiri fighters with ease. This doesn't make sense if SSJ is all that's needed to beat Dabura.

5. Gohan's damage energy although slight, moves the Buu Meter in a way a Super Saiyan wouldn't be able to. Gohan's damage energy must be significant enough to move the meter by 5-6 percent, while still allowing him to maintain enough power to rival Dabura. This isn't numerically possible as a Super Saiyan.

6. No one questions why Gohan isn't a SSJ2, since he easily transformed at the Tournament, surely someone should mention why he isn't even performing at his Tournament level.

7. Gohan's stamina being drained more in his fight with Dabura makes more sense if hes a SSJ2 instead of just a SSJ.

8. Goku tells Gohan to remember the Cell Games to bring out all of his power. If he's only a SSJ, why not just tell him to do what he did at the Budokai? This line from Goku makes so much sense if Gohan is already a SSJ2 and Goku is telling him to use his rage to bring out all of his power.

He was SSJ1.5. I've told you there are intermediate states between the two forms.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Daima convinced me that Dabra is SSJ level.

How do you handle the...

"We are both stronger than him now" after Goku uses SSJ2? Isn't that a clear, "Hey I have SSJ2 as well" moment?

Or are you committed to going all the way with SSJ Majin Vegeta > SSj2 Gohan?

 

[GSM123]

How do you handle the...

"We are both stronger than him now" after Goku uses SSJ2? Isn't that a clear, "Hey I have SSJ2 as well" moment?

Or are you committed to going all the way with SSJ Majin Vegeta > SSj2 Gohan?

It’s like you told me before on Neo. The story acts like Gohan’s limit is SSJ.