Goku and Kibitoshin Brought the BSDBs Back to Earth In Time?

[Papasmurf]

Let's say that Galu and Kibitoshin used their Shunkan Idou and Kai Kai to bring the UDBs/BSDBs back to Earth in time, perhaps using the Namekian Dragon Balls to learn where in the universe they all were if they run into the problem of it being too hard to keep spamming teleportation between planets to get a radar signal.

With the BSDBs back on Earth, and the regular DBs still corrupted, and Piccolo not needing to sacrifice himself anymore, how do the events of the Super #17 arc and the Evil Dragons arc unfold from there?

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Super 17 never happens. The Baby arc needed to happen for the events to align to bring it to life. Shadow Dragons might happen and if they do and if Goku doesn't have SS4, the universe ends up destroyed.

 

[Papasmurf]

Super 17 never happens. The Baby arc needed to happen for the events to align to bring it to life. Shadow Dragons might happen and if they do and if Goku doesn't have SS4, the universe ends up destroyed.

This is operating under the pretense that the BSDB and Baby arcs happened, and that in the 2 weeks or so they had before the Earth exploded, Galu played it smart and used his and Kibitoshin's teleportation abilities to regather the BSDBs. He has SSJ4 and Bulma has the Bruits wave technology to turn Vegeta into one if she desired.

Also keep in mind that Yi Xing Long/Syn seems to be able to re-corrupt Dragon Balls even if the evil energy amassed has been lifted (as he did so with 6 Dragon Balls whose corresponding Evil Dragons were destroyed), so he could theoretically absorb the BSDBs as well.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

This is operating under the pretense that the BSDB and Baby arcs happened, and that in the 2 weeks or so they had before the Earth exploded, Galu played it smart and used his and Kibitoshin's teleportation abilities to regather the BSDBs. He has SSJ4 and Bulma has the Bruits wave technology to turn Vegeta into one if she desired.

Also keep in mind that Yi Xing Long/Syn seems to be able to re-corrupt Dragon Balls even if the evil energy amassed has been lifted (as he did so with 6 Dragon Balls whose corresponding Evil Dragons were destroyed), so he could theoretically absorb the BSDBs as well.

If they just kept on teleporting around and taking dragon balls, then how would they encounter Baby himself? They'd just dip the moment they got the dragon ball. If Goku never fought against Baby then he would never even learn of how to get SS4. Bulma herself would never work on the bruits wave machine (remember she only ever created it after being controlled by Baby).

 

[Papasmurf]

If they just kept on teleporting around and taking dragon balls, then how would they encounter Baby himself? They'd just dip the moment they got the dragon ball. If Goku never fought against Baby then he would never even learn of how to get SS4. Bulma herself would never work on the bruits wave machine (remember she only ever created it after being controlled by Baby).

Are you trolling, or do you lack reading comprehension? I am saying that the Baby arc happened and that everyone went back to Earth in this scenario, found out that the Earth will explode in a couple of weeks, and then used whatever means they had (Dragon Radars, Namekian Dragon Balls) to teleport into the places in the universe where the BSDBS winded up in and brought them back. This scenario takes place between the Baby and S17 arcs.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Are you trolling, or do you lack reading comprehension? I am saying that the Baby arc happened and that everyone went back to Earth in this scenario, found out that the Earth will explode in a couple of weeks, and then used whatever means they had (Dragon Radars, Namekian Dragon Balls) to teleport into the places in the universe where the BSDBS winded up in and brought them back. This scenario takes place between the Baby and S17 arcs.

But if the baby arc happened then the earth was going to explode. End of story. That's why I don't know where you're getting at. But to answer your question, Galu would've been stuck in hell and Super 17 would've killed everyone. Because Piccolo was the one who was needed to free him from hell.

 

[Papasmurf]

But if the baby arc happened then the earth was going to explode. End of story. That's why I don't know where you're getting at. But to answer your question, Galu would've been stuck in hell and Super 17 would've killed everyone. Because Piccolo was the one who was needed to free him from hell.

There was clearly a multiple-week timeframe for the Earth to explode, which is plenty of time for them to just teleport to New Namek and wish for Porunga to tell them the location of the BSDBs and then use either Galu or Kibitoshin's teleportation techniques to find them and bring them back. Maybe if the Earth was to explode in 1 day after the Baby arc's events it would be "End of story."

Besides which, Galu already escaped Hell back in Saiyan arc filler. Neither of the absolutes in your scenario are actually absolute. At best you could argue that it would take longer for Galu to escape Hell in this scenario.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

There was clearly a multiple-week timeframe for the Earth to explode, which is plenty of time for them to just teleport to New Namek and wish for Porunga to tell them the location of the BSDBs and then use either Galu or Kibitoshin's teleportation techniques to find them and bring them back. Maybe if the Earth was to explode in 1 day after the Baby arc's events it would be "End of story."

Besides which, Galu already escaped Hell back in Saiyan arc filler. Neither of the absolutes in your scenario are actually absolute. At best you could argue that it would take longer for Galu to escape Hell in this scenario.

Earth was gonna explode soon, which is why they just flat out evacuated the world rather than bothering to find the Black star dragon balls. Which in all honesty would've taken what little time they had.

Except Galu was not going to escape hell in time to save his friends, if at all without Piccolo's intervention. The narrative for the Super 17 arc spells it out. Piccolo needed to die for it to work, Piccolo needed to go to hell to save him.

 

[Papasmurf]

Earth was gonna explode soon, which is why they just flat out evacuated the world rather than bothering to find the Black star dragon balls. Which in all honesty would've taken what little time they had.

GT's writing is often idiotic and this is one of the examples. They only need to get on 7 specific planets, and have over a dozen Z senshi that are ready to do it. All they literally need is to go to New Namek (which they can do in minutes with Kibitoshin's Kai Kai) and wish for Porunga to tell them the location of the BSDBs (which they can do immediately, since Porunga's DBs weren't used recently judging by them wishing back Earth immediately after it exploded), and after that it wouldn't even take a day to find them. Saying "this didn't happen so it's impossible" is like saying they couldn't have just found Gero by wishing Shenlong to tell them where he was, or wishing for him to be warped to where they were after Freeza's death, something which they only avoided so that they could fight the artificial humans. Here it just wasn't acknowledged since the writers needed Piccolo dead.

Except Galu was not going to escape hell in time to save his friends, if at all without Piccolo's intervention. The narrative for the Super 17 arc spells it out. Piccolo needed to die for it to work, Piccolo needed to go to hell to save him.

Except that Z filler, which is canon to the Z anime and therefore the GT anime (with the Oni being seen in Hell during the Kid Boo fight) showed that it's possible to escape from Hell. Unless you have a stated reason in-universe for why that was no longer possible, Goku can escape. It'd just take longer than in the anime.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with you about the validity of my pretense, since you have to abide by the pretense for the topic to even be pondered. Just assume that in the couple of weeks they had before Earth exploded they brought the BSDBs back, and that Piccolo didn't die. Then tell me how you think the rest of GT would go.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Except that Z filler, which is canon to the Z anime and therefore the GT anime (with the Oni being seen in Hell during the Kid Boo fight) showed that it's possible to escape from Hell. Unless you have a stated reason in-universe for why that was no longer possible, Goku can escape. It'd just take longer than in the anime.

GT plays hard and fast with what's canon and what's not. Still, even if we ignore Goku being stuck in the otherworld... nothing actually changes with Piccolo surviving. The ultimate irony of Piccolo in GT is that by dying he actually found more uses in the story, but if he actually lived? Well there's nothing else he can do but get absolutely bodied by the main villains.

 

[Papasmurf]

GT plays hard and fast with what's canon and what's not. Still, even if we ignore Goku being stuck in the otherworld... nothing actually changes with Piccolo surviving. The ultimate irony of Piccolo in GT is that by dying he actually found more uses in the story, but if he actually lived? Well there's nothing else he can do but get absolutely bodied by the main villains.

GT is a sequel to the Z anime, like Super is a sequel to the Kai anime and acknowledges fillers retained in Kai like Ginyu-Bulma's interactions with the crew. Therefore unless we have an in-universe reason to believe otherwise, what was valid in Z filler is valid in GT (especially when villains even having bodies in Hell is something GT took from Z's filler portions).

So, how do you think the S17 and Evil Dragons arcs go with Piccolo being alive, Goku being possibly delayed in escaping Hell without Piccolo's help, and the BSDBs being around on Earth? Answer that.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

GT is a sequel to the Z anime, like Super is a sequel to the Kai anime and acknowledges fillers retained in Kai like Ginyu-Bulma's interactions with the crew. Therefore unless we have an in-universe reason to believe otherwise, what was valid in Z filler is valid in GT (especially when villains even having bodies in Hell is something GT took from Z's filler portions).

So, how do you think the S17 and Evil Dragons arcs go with Piccolo being alive, Goku being possibly delayed in escaping Hell without Piccolo's help, and the BSDBs being around on Earth? Answer that.

Which also doesn't acknowledge the fact that in the Super 17 arc specifically GT treated Galu's imprisonment in hell as near impossible to get out of, without the help of Piccolo. I mean I'm with you that Toei is pretty shitty when lining up to its own established facts, but the story is the story.

I did. I seriously did answer that. Nothing really changes, because Piccolo being alive doesn't change the plot. Piccolo is in all seriousness a total non factor on the story by that point. The only substantial change that I can see in the plot is that Goku might flat out fail against Omega Shenron due to not having a living Vegeta to help him win? Or maybe Gohan just fills in as a Vegeta proxy? Not much really changes.

 

[Papasmurf]

Which also doesn't acknowledge the fact that in the Super 17 arc specifically GT treated Galu's imprisonment in hell as near impossible to get out of, without the help of Piccolo. I mean I'm with you that Toei is pretty shitty when lining up to its own established facts, but the story is the story.

Then you just need to factor in the fact that Goku would likely arrive too late to save Vegeta from S17 due to it being harder to escape Hell without Piccolo's help. I can think of a bunch of ways Galu can escape Hell, like Kaio or Dende reaching out to Kibitoshin (who'd definitely be willing to help out like he did against Baby) and just teleporting Galu out of there, so in the end it's just a minor inconvenience. I would agree Vegeta might end up killed, but even then you could just have Galu turn SSJ4 as soon as he's teleported to Earth and teleporting to Vegeta's location to save him rather than wasting time flying there.

I did. I seriously did answer that. Nothing really changes, because Piccolo being alive doesn't change the plot. Piccolo is in all seriousness a total non factor on the story by that point. The only substantial change that I can see in the plot is that Goku might flat out fail against Omega Shenron due to not having a living Vegeta to help him win? Or maybe Gohan just fills in as a Vegeta proxy? Not much really changes.

The BSDBs being around on Earth changes a lot seeing as Yi Xing Long can integrate even purified DBs into himself and increase his negative energy with them, so you have the potential of the shadow dragons being a lot more powerful and Gogeta possibly being required earlier (let's say if Vegeta is indeed killed, he uses his one day among the living to join the fight or some shit).

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Then you just need to factor in the fact that Goku would likely arrive too late to save Vegeta from S17 due to it being harder to escape Hell without Piccolo's help. I can think of a bunch of ways Galu can escape Hell, like Kaio or Dende reaching out to Kibitoshin (who'd definitely be willing to help out like he did against Baby) and just teleporting Galu out of there, so in the end it's just a minor inconvenience. I would agree Vegeta might end up killed, but even then you could just have Galu turn SSJ4 as soon as he's teleported to Earth and teleporting to Vegeta's location to save him rather than wasting time flying there.

The BSDBs being around on Earth changes a lot seeing as Yi Xing Long can integrate even purified DBs into himself and increase his negative energy with them, so you have the potential of the shadow dragons being a lot more powerful and Gogeta possibly being required earlier (let's say if Vegeta is indeed killed, he uses his one day among the living to join the fight or some shit).

The Kaioshins cannot interfere here, remember, the negative energy from the dragon balls meant the Kaioshins couldn't actually go to Earth.

So the Shadow Dragons win? I agree that's the most likely outcome from this what if.

 

[Papasmurf]

The Kaioshins cannot interfere here, remember, the negative energy from the dragon balls meant the Kaioshins couldn't actually go to Earth.

They can still go to Hell though. Then he could just teleport Goku to Kaio's planet where he could just teleport to where Vegeta and the rest are as SSJ4.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

They can still go to Hell though. Then he could just teleport Goku to Kaio's planet where he could just teleport to where Vegeta and the rest are as SSJ4.

Its been awhile since I even watched the show but I don't think they could go to hell too. And if the Kaioshin couldn't go to Earth, then there's no way Kaio could enter Earth as well. Actually that is a good point, the reason why Goku couldn't get out of hell was most likely to do with the dragon balls.

 

[Papasmurf]

I doubt Toei thought of that excuse tbh. The corrupted DBs weren't even activated yet, and I doubt they affected all of the universe and the afterlife. And Goku's Shunkan Idou still worked when Yi Xing Long was alive, so we know it's not out of the question. Kai Kai is stated to be capable of transporting Kibito/Shin to any planet or place in the mortal realm and the afterlife (which includes places like Dai Kaio's planet, Kaioshinkai and logically Heaven and Hell as well).

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I doubt Toei thought of that excuse tbh. The corrupted DBs weren't even activated yet, and I doubt they affected all of the universe and the afterlife. And Goku's Shunkan Idou still worked when Yi Xing Long was alive, so we know it's not out of the question. Kai Kai is stated to be capable of transporting Kibito/Shin to any planet or place in the mortal realm and the afterlife (which includes places like Dai Kaio's planet, Kaioshinkai and logically Heaven and Hell as well).

I think you'll know when you get to the Super 17 arc.

 

[Papasmurf]

I think you'll know when you get to the Super 17 arc.

I watched that faggotry years ago lol. I'm not rewatching that cancer.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

In the case they're successful, Galu gets trapped in Hell and, unless he gathers the intelligence to remember to just copy what Gotenks did or use SS4 to escape with Shunkan Ido, he's stuck there without Piccolo. That said, Super #17 kills all the Dragon Team until #18 shows up, at which point things go one of several:

1. Super #17 still kills Mu, but allows himself to be killed by exposing his weakness and having #18 destroy him with a Kienzan. The Dragon Balls are gathered to revive everyone and get Goku out of Hell, but the Evil Dragons break out. Because the GT cast either lacked the foresight or were too wary to use the Namekian Dragon Balls, they'd be lucky to even take down one dragon.

2. Same as the previous scenario, but Kibitoshin takes the risk of using the Namekian DBs to revive all those Super #17 killed and to get Goku out of Hell. The arc then goes exactly as it did in GT other than Piccolo helping out against Yi Xing Long and possibly still being alive by the 100 year timeskip, perhaps mentoring Goku Jr.

3. Super #17 kills Mu and #18, then goes about destroying all in sight. The Evil Dragons don't appear and Super #17 eventually destroys the Earth when he's bored of it, before moving onto space.

4. Similar to #3, but with Piccolo surviving and taking the risk of using the Ultimate Dragon Balls to erase Super #17. Assuming they live up to their hype and are able to do this rather than being resigned to the typical DB rules, the Dragon team have both the ticking clock of Earth's destruction and the Evil Dragons to worry about. Kibitoshin uses the DBs just as in scenario 2 and, assuming Goku has to leave immediately after Yi Xing Long's defeat, the remaining fighters explore space to gather the Ultimate DBs again afterwards and save Earth.

5. Super #17 defeats the Dragon Team, but listens to Mu, who then plans on using the Dragon Balls to become immortal or something. The Evil Dragons are released and Mu has Super #17 fight them. With how much weaker he'd be without SS4 Goku's Ki and how few of the Evil Dragons like to spam Ki blasts though, he'd be lucky to get past Wu Xing Long.