Goku and Vegeta (BoG)

[SSJ2]

So how strong do we think they are? Having just watched the film it's pretty clear that SSJ3 Goku is the strongest among the Z Senshi, and SSJ2 Vegeta had far surpassed him. Would Vegeta scale to be stronger than General Rild in GT?

 

[Southern Gothic]

SSJ2 Vegeta one-shits Rild.

 

[SSJ2]

I agree. Do you think he's stronger than Super Baby Vegeta? While I think he would decinate Rild, it was also clear that Beerus was holding back significantly.

 

[Southern Gothic]

That's tough. I'd probably draw the line somewhere around here but say Vegeta still edges out. BoG seems to imply SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ3 Vegetto, unless you buy into the idea that Goku was reading Beerus beyond what he was displaying on Kaio's planet.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

SS3 Goku ought to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan, though that's basically all we can say. I guess you could use him being so confident in facing Beerus that he even thought about powering down to SS3 as evidence of him having possibly surpassed SSJ Vegetto when Kaio had already placed Beerus in his own league, though I'd chalk that up to a mix of modern Galu idiocy and him probably not being aware if Kaio sensed their fusion in either continuity. Personally, I'd place him somewhere between Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks Boo.
As for Vegeta, he was able to make Beerus bleed when Goku confirmed fusion wouldn't work against Beerus, and there was no indication that Goku knew Beerus had far more power when he admitted SSG's power was a world he never knew existed. That said, Enraged SS2 Vegeta > BoG SS3 Vegetto.

 

[SSJ2]

As for Vegeta, he was able to make Beerus bleed when Goku confirmed fusion wouldn't work against Beerus, and there was no indication that Goku knew Beerus had far more power when he admitted SSG's power was a world he never knew existed. That said, Enraged SS2 Vegeta > BoG SS3 Vegetto.

This just sounds absurd to me. All Goku said was that merging with Vegeta probably wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. Vegeta wasn't able to beat Beerus, or even come close to it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Vegeta was still able to draw blood from him and Beerus' change in performance seemed to imply a power up like in Super. Goku also came to his conclusion from just fighting a Beerus who finger flicked and karate chopped him without showing the full extent of his skill, so I'd say being able to determine fusion wouldn't be enough from that limited showing says a lot.

 

[SSJ2]

When did he power up? Idk, all Vegeta managed to do was land a flurry of attacks on Beerus who wasn't even defending himself. The fact that Beerus nonchalantly tanked his full power blast (which was strong enough to make him revert back to Base) says a lot about where Vegeta stood in comparison. I think it's unreasonable to assume SSJ3 Vegetto wouldn't be able to manage the same when Goku merely said he doubted he could win by fusing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

When did he power up? Idk, all Vegeta managed to do was land a flurry of attacks on Beerus who wasn't even defending himself. The fact that Beerus nonchalantly tanked his full power blast (which was strong enough to make him revert back to Base) says a lot about where Vegeta stood in comparison.

I'd say that comparison alone is enough to suggest Beerus did indeed power up. Even if Beerus was initially caught off guard, he still didn't tank the several blows that followed and only made a change in ability to Vegeta's Ki attack.
Even if we can assume Vegetto could perform something similar, Goku still quickly dismissed the probability of winning when the most he'd seen of Beerus' capabilities was him toying with a far weaker foe. If Goku can determine a Vegetto fighting at his best would still lose against a Beerus as of yet not shown to fight seriously at that level, I'd say it shows that Vegetto would still be significantly below Initial Beerus.

 

[SSJ2]

It kind of reminded me of Goku vs Tao Pai Pai. Goku was unable to tank his attacks towards the end of the fight, and was shown to have drawn blood, but then he swiftly defeated him in several blows. I don't think Goku powered up to do so, and I don't think Beerus had to have powered up either..

And what about this - if Vegeta was truly stronger than the likes of a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, would there have been any question of it?

Time: 1:01:30
Context: Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta attacks Beerus
Roshi: “This is incredible! I think Vegeta has finally surpassed Goku, hasn’t he?”

I'd have to think it would be pretty obvious if Goku was surpassed by such an outrageous amount.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Promotional material for the film implies Gohan was still stronger than his father by the time BoGs rolls around. Toriyama also has implied Goku and the others are about as strong as their EoZ selves here, so Goku should still be weaker than Gotenks.

 

[SSJ2]

Promotional material for the film implies Gohan was still stronger than his father by the time BoGs rolls around. Toriyama also has implied Goku and the others are about as strong as their EoZ selves here, so Goku should still be weaker than Gotenks.

Have you got a link to the promotional material? I can't find the information anywhere.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan's character bio on the movie website describes him as having “power surpassing even that of a pure Saiyan”

Why did you choose this period?
The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Boo arc”, and before Pan’s birth.

 

[SSJ2]

Thanks for that. But what is interesting is that Vegeta knew that earth was doomed after Goku's defeat. Would be strange for him to react to Goku's loss if Gohan was indeed far stronger still.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta did hear about how easily Beerus took Goku out right? Gohan probably couldn’t finger click Goku like that, and the fact he shows up a complete mess a few months later for FnF could mean he’s already lost some power, just enough to barely still be top dog.

Besides, everybody always thinks Goku is going to save the day regardless of his power anyway.

 

[SSJ2]

He did, but his initial shock was due to Goku losing.

Time: 29:04
Context: Kaio informs Vegeta that Beerus is heading to earth
Kaio: “In any case, once Beerus-sama arrives there, do absolutely, absolutely nothing to engage him! Otherwise it will mean the annihilation of the earth itself.”
Vegeta: “The earth will be annihilated?”
Kaio: “Goku couldn’t leave well enough alone, and was easily beaten.”
Vegeta: “He was what?! Kakarrot?!”
Kaio: “Super Saiyan 3 Goku was left barely breathing after just two blows.”

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It kind of reminded me of Goku vs Tao Pai Pai. Goku was unable to tank his attacks towards the end of the fight, and was shown to have drawn blood, but then he swiftly defeated him in several blows. I don't think Goku powered up to do so, and I don't think Beerus had to have powered up either..

Not only was Goku far less skilled at using Ki than Beerus would be at that point, but the severity of Tao didn't push him back nearly as much, nor was Goku capable of tanking his attacks when the Dodonpa still damaged him.

And what about this - if Vegeta was truly stronger than the likes of a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, would there have been any question of it?

Time: 1:01:30
Context: Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta attacks Beerus
Roshi: “This is incredible! I think Vegeta has finally surpassed Goku, hasn’t he?”

I'd have to think it would be pretty obvious if Goku was surpassed by such an outrageous amount.

It would've been pretty obvious that Vegeta surpassed Goku from the first hit with how badly the latter got tooled by Beerus, so the statement was forced either way.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Also keep in mind that the intent of the scene was to hax Vegeta to god level without having to create a story element around it. Hence him later achieving god-mode without a ritual. That being said, it's more reasonable that the hax was meant to push him closer to god rather than any previously existing fighter. Otherwise, what would be the point of upping him past SSJ3 Goku but not SSJ3 Vegeta or Ultimate Gohan?

 

[SSJ2]

It kind of reminded me of Goku vs Tao Pai Pai. Goku was unable to tank his attacks towards the end of the fight, and was shown to have drawn blood, but then he swiftly defeated him in several blows. I don't think Goku powered up to do so, and I don't think Beerus had to have powered up either..

Not only was Goku far less skilled at using Ki than Beerus would be at that point, but the severity of Tao didn't push him back nearly as much, nor was Goku capable of tanking his attacks when the Dodonpa still damaged him.

But couldn't that be explained by the magnitude of the attacks being incalculably higher in BoG due to the amount of ki being put into each strike?

[youtube]ZFxsbJ-wTEI[/youtube]

Comparing that to the fight with Tao, the only difference is Beerus being pushed back. Otherwise they are identical. Also Goku still came pretty close to tanking the Dodonpa, only taking superficial damage from it.

I'd say the burden of proof would be to prove that Beerus powered up. When you consider that he was hardly outputting anywhere near his maximum power, it's nonsensical for him to take Vegeta's barrage of attacks without defending himself. He had plenty of time to prepare for the attack at 3:22 and allowed himself to get beat up. Doesn't look like a guy who was fighting seriously to me.

And what about this - if Vegeta was truly stronger than the likes of a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, would there have been any question of it?

Time: 1:01:30
Context: Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta attacks Beerus
Roshi: “This is incredible! I think Vegeta has finally surpassed Goku, hasn’t he?”

I'd have to think it would be pretty obvious if Goku was surpassed by such an outrageous amount.

It would've been pretty obvious that Vegeta surpassed Goku from the first hit with how badly the latter got tooled by Beerus, so the statement was forced either way.

The statement was incredibly forced, but that doesn't change the fact that Roshi was unaware of Goku's defeat when he made that statement.