Goku SSJ [vs Yakon]

[xmysticgohanx]

Goku maxed out the Kiri meter. Goku was probs already using a level higher than 3000 kiri but the meter doesnt go farther

 

[Six Trails]

Or simply put Base Goten far above Android 18 and chalk up their inability in beating her due to the lack of coordination in using their legs (since Goten was incapable of fighting back) and the suit drastically hindering their speed.

Would it also drastically hinder their durability? Because if they were significantly stronger I don't think that #18 would be able to smack them down into the ring the way she did.

Do you also believe that Trunks' suppressed blast as a Super Saiyan is weaker than a full-power blast from his base form?

 

[ahill1]

Good points, @Mike. Trunks' suppressed blast was moderately stronger than #18 at best, so it's hard to believe their bases were already way above #18.

 

[Goku9001]

Would it also drastically hinder their durability? Because if they were significantly stronger I don't think that #18 would be able to smack them down into the ring the way she did.

They were caught off-guard as she struck them in their blindspot which meant that the duo were defenseless. Even taking into consideration that they were defenseless, they still recuperate as if nothing happened.

Do you also believe that Trunks' suppressed blast as a Super Saiyan is weaker than a full-power blast from his base form?

That's possible, but it wouldn't have to be anyways considering 1 Suppressed Ki blast would'be killed her or severely crippled her at the very least.

 

[Goku9001]

Good points, @Mike. Trunks' suppressed blast was moderately stronger than #18 at best, so it's hard to believe their bases were already way above #18.

That's not true. The blast was stated to be "absolutely incredible" by Android 18 meaning that it wasn't moderately stronger, but significantly stronger.

 

[ahill1]

That's not true. The blast was stated to be "absolutely incredible" by Android 18 meaning that it wasn't moderately stronger, but significantly stronger.

Not really... it's not why 18 called it "absolutely incredible" it means it was considerable above her. She still dodged the blast (in a more convincing fashion than Goku Kkx2 vs 18k Vegeta, might I add).

 

[Goku9001]

Well I think the auras argument is a pretty good one. Show me one example of a fighter being at a really small portion of his power and yet displaying an aura.

How about when Gohan powered up to SSJ for the first time in front of Goten? Or when SSJ Goten powered up from below Piccolo to significantly above him at Kami's Lookout.

I simple cannot. I'm ok with base Goten = 18, but base Goten >>> #18 is way too much imo. See RandomGuy's points on this thread:

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Shinden_no_Fukkatsu/topic/7870316/1/

I read most of it and evading the Ki blast can be explained through two different possibilities:

1. They avoided it to prevent their disguise being destroyed by the blast.

2. They overestimated Android 18, so they overestimated the Ki blast as a result.

When?

Goku himself wasn't even afraid to fight Kaioshin after hearing about Piccolo's vast inferiority.

Well even with a 10x multiplier, Piccolo would still ending up 10x below the Boo arc SSJs, which is a serious downplay comsidering his feats at the Cell Game.

That's true, but it's far less extravagant if you choose to use a reduced multiplier rather than the conventional multiplier.

Well I have Kaioshin > base Saiyans nowadays. Not saying base Saiyans > Piccolo or > Kaioshin is impossible or anything, it's easily plausible considering some implications in the Boo arc, but it's really hard to show it numerically.

The main point was is that people choose to ignore implications such as the Base Kids being at least Android 18's equal and place them below Frieza as they follow the conventional multiplier which makes things far too bloated. Reducing the multiplier makes things much less extravagant and makes it easier to follow Toriyama's own perspective which conforms to the idea that a 50x multiplier is too large to envision.

 

[Goku9001]

Not really... it's not why 18 called it "absolutely incredible" it means it was considerable above her. She still dodged the blast (in a more convincing fashion than Goku Kkx2 vs 18k Vegeta, might I add).

Stating that something is incredible means vast superiority. Being absolutely incredible means that that vast superiority is even larger. The only instance that also used that same type of wording was Piccolo when he considered SSJ Gotenks as being absolutely incredible.

The gap is immense and being able to kill someone with a simple Ki blast or severely cripple them with it implies a massive gap.

Goku never called the blast being absolutely incredible. He believed Vegeta was impressive, but never emphasized his strength the way 18 did with the kids.

 

[Six Trails]

They were caught off-guard as she struck them in their blindspot which meant that the duo were defenseless. Even taking into consideration that they were defenseless, they still recuperate as if nothing happened.

Spoiler

It wasn't off-guard in the sense that Trunks wasn't aware that #18 was right above him about to smack him down. As you can see in the image, Trunks notices #18 spring up before she attacks.

Aside from that, #18 had Trunks on his feet the whole match. If the boys were above her by such a considerable degree, wouldn't they just be able to stand there and tank all of her blows?

That's possible, but it wouldn't have to be anyways considering 1 Suppressed Ki blast would'be killed her or severely crippled her at the very least.

It would be rather pointless to even transform if a Ki blast from even their base form would be enough, would it not?

 

[Goku9001]

Spoiler

It wasn't off-guard in the sense that Trunks wasn't aware that #18 was right above him about to smack him down. As you can see in the image, Trunks notices #18 spring up before she attacks.

It was because Trunks never suspected to receive an attack from his blindspot and because of that, he couldn't even defend against the attack. It's made clear with Trunks uttering, "eh?" before being struck which is a good indication that he didn't expect it.

Aside from that, #18 had Trunks on his feet the whole match. If the boys were above her by such a considerable degree, wouldn't they just be able to stand there and tank all of her blows?

Not really because tanking hits would be pointless if the disadvantages of the suit would prevent them from landing a hit to begin with.

It would be rather pointless to even transform if a Ki blast from even their base form would be enough, would it not?

Not necessarily because Trunks made it very clear that he overestimated her, believing that a suppressed kI blast wouldn't severely damage her when it was implied that it would have.

 

[ahill1]

How about when Gohan powered up to SSJ for the first time in front of Goten?

He hadn't an aura.

Or when SSJ Goten powered up from below Piccolo to significantly above him at Kami's Lookout.

He doesn't have to be below Piccolo before powering up, specially when before it Piccolo just called them "Earth's only hope". Besides, they can be >50% and yet below Piccolo...no problem with it.

I read most of it and evading the Ki blast can be explained through two different possibilities:

1. They avoided it to prevent their disguise being destroyed by the blast.

2. They overestimated Android 18, so they overestimated the Ki blast as a result.

Eh, I'm not exactly talking about #18's chi blast.

Goku himself wasn't even afraid to fight Kaioshin after hearing about Piccolo's vast inferiority.

He only didn't show to be. He asked Piccolo "Is that much" whith a serious face and later we don't see his reactions towards Piccolo's response. I don't think we can take a conclusion that "Goku could fight in base with someone way stronger than Piccolo" from that.

Stating that something is incredible means vast superiority

No, like I said in another thread, Jackie Chun referred to Namu as "incredible", yet we know the former isn't weaker than the latter, or Kame-Sen'nin referring to Kuririn's running 100 meters, or Goku referring to Jackie Chun in the 21st Budokai:

Chapter: 28, P8.1-2
Context: after running 100 meters
Kame-sennin: “Incredible! 10.4 seconds! That’s really something!”
Kuririn: “Oh, 10.4 huh? My personal best is 10.1 though.”

Chapter: 38, P1.3
Goku: “That old-timer’s incredible, beating Yamcha so quickly like that!”
Kuririn: “So I have to fight a master like that in match #5?”

Chapter: 44, P5.3
Yamcha: “W-what the heck kind of guy is Goku?! He easily mimicked your technique!”
Kame-sennin: “Mmmm…A-at any rate, Namu’s incredible too for seeing through that technique…!”

Kuririn also referred to Tenshinhan's and Yamcha's as huge chis, despite being stronger than them:

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P4.2
Kuririn: “I sense two huge ki near that mountain…That’s probably Yamcha and the others.”
Note: it’s Yamcha and Tenshinhan



What would sure imply inferiority would be saying person A is a lot more incredible than you or something like this.


Chapter: 164, P7.1-3
Goku: “Amazin’…Mister Popo, you really are incredible! That’s why I couldn’t beat you!”
Popo: “Heh, well…Mister Popo has learned a whole, whole lot from God. That’s why I’m great.”
Goku: “So this ‘God’ guy is even more amazin’!?”
Popo: “Of course. God is far, far more incredible.”

Chapter: 103, P12.4
Kame-sennin: “What?! She’s bringing Akkuman out already?! He always used to be her fifth man!! That means…she’s saving an even more incredible foe for last!!”


This implies inferiority.

Being absolutely incredible means that that vast superiority is even larger.

Goku also referred Piccolo's Daimao chi as being absolutely incredible, yet we know the latter isn't far stronger than post Water Goku. Or Future Trunks referring to his dad's chi post their firt trip in the Rosat:


Chapter: 152, P9.4
Goku: “I feel an absolutely incredible demonic ki [youki]…Piccolo Daimao is over there…”

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

Goku never called the blast being absolutely incredible. He believed Vegeta was impressive, but never emphasized his strength the way 18 did with the kids.

Look at Goku's reactions while Vegeta was building up his chi:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v20/c035/11.html
And later he commented on the speed and power, pretty much the same way #18 did:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v20/c035/21.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v38/c259/12.html
Pretty similar situation if you ask me.

 

[Goku9001]

He hadn't an aura.

I just realized that my example wasn't what you were looking for, but it's still an indication that having an aura doesn't always correlate to the amount of power a character is outputting.

He doesn't have to be below Piccolo before powering up, specially when before it Piccolo just called them "Earth's only hope". Besides, they can be >50% and yet below Piccolo...no problem with it.

He went from a power that Piccolo didn't even bat an eye to a power that outstrips Kaioshin who was leagues above Piccolo. Certainly a multi-folds power up. The fact that SSJ Goten's strength can fluctuate while maintaining an aura suggests that having an aura didn't really correlate to power for SSJins.

Eh, I'm not exactly talking about #18's chi blast.

Oh, that was one of the debater's main arguments, but I admitted that I didn't read all of his argument. From what I read, even he admitted that Trunks had a slight power advantage.

He only didn't show to be. He asked Piccolo "Is that much" whith a serious face and later we don't see his reactions towards Piccolo's response. I don't think we can take a conclusion that "Goku could fight in base with someone way stronger than Piccolo" from that.

Toriyama made the distinction with Krillin and Goku, having Krillin react with lack of confidence to signify that he couldn't handle Kaioshin as opposed to Goku who was curious, but still remained composed during the entire Budokai.

Stating that something is incredible means vast superiority

No, like I said in another thread, Jackie Chun referred to Namu as "incredible", yet we know the former isn't weaker than the latter, or Kame-Sen'nin referring to Kuririn's running 100 meters, or Goku referring to Jackie Chun in the 21st Budokai:

Chapter: 28, P8.1-2
Context: after running 100 meters
Kame-sennin: “Incredible! 10.4 seconds! That’s really something!”
Kuririn: “Oh, 10.4 huh? My personal best is 10.1 though.”

Chapter: 38, P1.3
Goku: “That old-timer’s incredible, beating Yamcha so quickly like that!”
Kuririn: “So I have to fight a master like that in match #5?”

Chapter: 44, P5.3
Yamcha: “W-what the heck kind of guy is Goku?! He easily mimicked your technique!”
Kame-sennin: “Mmmm…A-at any rate, Namu’s incredible too for seeing through that technique…!”

While that is a good point, you should take into consideration that all of these statements are made in Dragonball rather than Dragonball Z where power relations weren't made to be as simplistic and easy to comprehend as they were in Z. For instance, Toriyama introduced the concept of battle powers to make understanding power relations a lot easier and what I'm suggesting supports this by using words such as incredible or words that have a similar connotation to emphasize superiority, so then just a single word such as that would automatically give us an indication that the fighter being praised is clearly depicted as superior.

That"s even further supported how most, if not every single example in Z that uses the word incredible is used to refer to superiority and I can provide many examples from Z to support that if need be.

Kuririn also referred to Tenshinhan's and Yamcha's as huge chis, despite being stronger than them:

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P4.2
Kuririn: “I sense two huge ki near that mountain…That’s probably Yamcha and the others.”
Note: it’s Yamcha and Tenshinhan

You've proven that Toriyama used different words with less emphasis to depict a different power relationship between two fighters which shows that words with more emphasis conveys different power relationships.

What would sure imply inferiority would be saying person A is a lot more incredible than you or something like this.

Chapter: 164, P7.1-3
Goku: “Amazin’…Mister Popo, you really are incredible! That’s why I couldn’t beat you!”
Popo: “Heh, well…Mister Popo has learned a whole, whole lot from God. That’s why I’m great.”
Goku: “So this ‘God’ guy is even more amazin’!?”
Popo: “Of course. God is far, far more incredible.”

First of all, you'be proven my point as Goku referred to Popo as being incredible, signifying Goku's inferiority. Next, the fact that Popo used the word "incredible" as the basis to his statement about Kami proves that the word incredible did have meaning in that power relation. Replace "incredible" with "stronger" and you don't get the same connotation.

Chapter: 103, P12.4
Kame-sennin: “What?! She’s bringing Akkuman out already?! He always used to be her fifth man!! That means…she’s saving an even more incredible foe for last!!”

Toroyama still puts emphasis on the word "incredible" and uses that as a basis to refer to Akkuman being stronger than the last opponent. The fact that Akkuman was referred to as being more incredible implies that Mummy Man was already incredible, who was already superior to Kame-sennin.



This implies inferiority.

Goku also referred Piccolo's Daimao chi as being absolutely incredible, yet we know the latter isn't far stronger than post Water Goku. Or Future Trunks referring to his dad's chi post their firt trip in the Rosat:


Chapter: 152, P9.4
Goku: “I feel an absolutely incredible demonic ki [youki]…Piccolo Daimao is over there…”

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

Goku was calm whereas Android 18 was shocked and lacked composure, so there is a distinction there.

The Trunks example is merely one example and does not debunk the other examples made in the manga. However, the fact that AT felt the need to emphasis how Trunks surpassed Vegeta implies that that type of wording gives another connotation.

Look at Goku's reactions while Vegeta was building up his chi:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v20/c035/11.html
And later he commented on the speed and power, pretty much the same way #18 did:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v20/c035/21.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v38/c259/12.html
Pretty similar situation if you ask me.

I can't check the images, but Goku never placed as much emphasis on Vegeta as Android 18 did with the boys, even commenting on the blast having absolutely incredible speed and power and concluded that the boys had outrageous power whereas Goku simply mentioned that he couldn't keep up with his speed and power.

 

[ahill1]

but it's still an indication that having an aura doesn't always correlate to the amount of power a character is outputting.

Not by the Gohan vs Goten example.

He went from a power that Piccolo didn't even bat an eye to

Again, Piccolo already called the boys "Earth's only hope", so I would not say it.

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”
Note: this is before Fusion is mentioned

Yeah you could say Piccolo was planning them to use the Rosat due to their potentials, but it still shows they were hide in high regard by Piccolo.

to a power that outstrips Kaioshin who was leagues above Piccolo

Wait, so you are implying: Base adult Saiyans >> Kaioshin >>> SSJ Kids (suppressed)?

The fact that SSJ Goten's strength can fluctuate while maintaining an aura suggests that having an aura didn't really correlate to power for SSJins.

It can fluctuate, never denied that. But I don't think they can be at a pretty small portion of their power and still have an aura.

From what I read, even he admitted that Trunks had a slight power advantage.

Yeah, Trunks' SSJ suppressed blast, which was, like I said, only moderately stronger than #18.

Toriyama made the distinction with Krillin and Goku, having Krillin react with lack of confidence to signify that he couldn't handle Kaioshin as opposed to Goku who was curious, but still remained composed during the entire Budokai.

Again, we didn't see Goku's exact reaction. Besides, Kuririn acted that way mainly because Kaioshin would be his next opponent:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”

Kuririn already knew he was going to fight monsters like Goku, Vegeta and Gohan.

you should take into consideration that all of these statements are made in Dragonball rather than Dragonball Z where power relations weren't made to be as simplistic and easy to comprehend as they were in Z.

More power = win it's still pretty consistent in Dragon Ball, barring some situations like 21st Budokai Goku vs Jackie Chun or 22nd Budokai Goku vs Tenshinhan.

For instance, Toriyama introduced the concept of battle powers to make understanding power relations a lot easier and what I'm suggesting supports this by using words such as incredible or words that have a similar connotation to emphasize superiority,

The concept of battle power was already dropped in the Boo arc (where the statement you're referring was made). There's still various quotes in early Dragon Ball showing who is superior, as well as battle powers line (like old Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power to beat post 22nd Budokai Goku), so I really don't see why the "incredible" should be interpreted differently.

so then just a single word such as that would automatically give us an indication that the fighter being praised is clearly depicted as superior.

It's not why someone is praised it means the one praising is inferior, that's pretty much a misconception.


Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P5.1-2
Freeza: "Hoh! This is incredible! Your battle power has risen to 42,000. I see, you truly do seem to be completely different than all the Namekians up to now. I’m surprised…This is a magnificent battle power! I can see why you’re called a Warrior-type. It’s enough to make me want you for an underling."

if not every single example in Z that uses the word incredible is used to refer to superiority and I can provide many examples from Z to support that if need be.

I know there's a lot of examples where "incredible" comes from an inferior person, just saying it's not always it. Hell, I even said Trunks' suppressed blast was > 18, just saying it wasn't by a huge amount, thus making Base kids >>> 18 pretty unlikely.

You've proven that Toriyama used different words with less emphasis to depict a different power relationship between two fighters which shows that words with more emphasis conveys different power relationships.

Is there such a difference between "Incredible Chi" and "Huge Chi"?

First of all, you'be proven my point as Goku referred to Popo as being incredible, signifying Goku's inferiority.

Again, while the "Incredible" can mean "inferiority", this is not consistent 100% of the time (and I showed you examples of this).

Next, the fact that Popo used the word "incredible" as the basis to his statement about Kami proves that the word incredible did have meaning in that power relation. Replace "incredible" with "stronger" and you don't get the same connotation.

Problem is, he didn't say only incredible, he said "far more incredible". It's the same thing as calling someone "Strong" or "Far Stronger".

Toroyama still puts emphasis on the word "incredible" and uses that as a basis to refer to Akkuman being stronger than the last opponent.

"An even more incredible".

The fact that Akkuman was referred to as being more incredible implies that Mummy Man was already incredible, who was already superior to Kame-sennin.

Like he referred to Namu as incredible... see?

Goku was calm whereas Android 18 was shocked and lacked composure, so there is a distinction there.

I wasn't really talking of reactions here, I was just pointing out the "Absolutely incredible" isn't synonymous of "Far stronger". Goku already expected Piccolo Daimao to have even more power (probably due to Karin still not being sure about Goku's victory), whereas #18 didn't expect the kids to be that strong:

Chapter: 156, P11.1-6
Context: after Goku and Piccolo fight a bit
Piccolo: “You’ve really done it…You’re the first person to ever wound the pride of Piccolo Daimao so much…”
Tenshinhan: “He’s laughing…Wh-why? Does this mean he still has room for composure?”
Goku: “Come at me with all you’ve got! Put out all your strength! Show me your true power!”

The Trunks example is merely one example and does not debunk the other examples made in the manga.

In my book it does. It shows words like "Incredible" doesn't always translate to inferiority, much less "far inferiority" and I showed you more than one example of this. It's not like the "Absurdly large Chi", which was used always with the intent of show inferiority.

I can't check the images, but Goku never placed as much emphasis on Vegeta as Android 18 did with the boys, even commenting on the blast having absolutely incredible speed and power and concluded that the boys had outrageous power whereas Goku simply mentioned that he couldn't keep up with his speed and power.

Goku was pretty much flabbergasted and sweating while Vegeta was "powering up":

Later on, he commented on the power and the speed, much like the same way #18 did:

Do you really see a problem with Goku calling 18k Vegeta an absolutely incredible Chi?

 

[Papasmurf]

Goten and Trunks are wary of #18 from the beginning before they realized what a hindrance the costume was, so I doubt their base forms were intended to be far above her without the suit.

I still think #18 takes them way more seriously than SSJ Vegeta in the early Cell arc though.

 

[ahill1]

Goten and Trunks are wary of #18 from the beginning before they realized what a hindrance the costume was, so I doubt their base forms were intended to be far above her without the suit.

I still think #18 takes them way more seriously than SSJ Vegeta in the early Cell arc though.

I remember you had in your power level list the kids in base way above #18 (like #18 at 800,000,000 and the base kids at 6,000,000,000 or so) haha.

 

[Male]

18>Base Kids (Tournament Arc) The manga implies this and it goes uncontradicted.
Yakon-110,000,000
ssj Namek Goku-150,000,000
Goku wins with mid difficulty. lol

 

[ahill1]

Huh? This is not a Vs thread.

 

[Papasmurf]

Goten and Trunks are wary of #18 from the beginning before they realized what a hindrance the costume was, so I doubt their base forms were intended to be far above her without the suit.

I still think #18 takes them way more seriously than SSJ Vegeta in the early Cell arc though.

I remember you had in your power level list the kids in base way above #18 (like #18 at 800,000,000 and the base kids at 6,000,000,000 or so) haha.

I think that was just a necessity because I made everyone have a 10x multiplier and needed Goten/Trunks to not be far below Gohands

 

[ahill1]

I think that was just a necessity because I made everyone have a 10x multiplier and needed Goten/Trunks to not be far below Gohands

Yeah, but even so you gave a convincing explanation about them being >>> 18 in base. How strong do you have them (base)? At #18's level?

 

[Papasmurf]

Could be anywhere but I don't like them being >>>>> her anymore, otherwise it makes sense for them to say she'd be a piece of cake if not for the outfit. Instead they just say it's hard to move in it, although there is that statement about the outfit still making them inferior to her in SSJ