Goku (vs Freeza)

[ahill1]

How strong do you have him while just in his base state? I might see him reaching 7 millions.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I have him reaching around 10,000,000.

 

[ahill1]

Wow, 10,000,000 is pretty high, but it's possible. It depends on how big was Freeza 3rd form ~ Final Form power up, which could be pretty, pretty, pretty big.

 

[p123]

How many levels are there?

1) Initial Final Form
2) Increased Speed vs Vegeta
3) Kicking back Vegeta's Blast?
4) Serious vs Goku

Is that it?

And yea people don't realize how many boosts there were for his final form.

 

[ahill1]

Yep, I also go with 4 times. But it's still entirely possible Freeza started against Goku with the same level he used to kick Vegeta's ass, making it even more.

Also, do you go with Freeza increasing his power to kick Vegeta's blast? Is that the power he used to match his speed increase?

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Wow, 10,000,000 is pretty high, but it's possible. It depends on how big was Freeza 3rd form ~ Final Form power up, which could be pretty, pretty, pretty big.

I might be misremembering the line, but didn't Piccolo say Freeza's true form makes his previous forms look cute power wise?

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, he did say something along those lines. I'd like to have Freeza's increase power that even higher than 1st form (530,000) ~ initial 2nd form (1,000,000+), but that would be pretty bloat lol.

 

[Kyo]

golden freeza - 1,200,000
pure boo - 1,150,000
cell - 1,125,000
ssj goku - 1,110,000
100% freeza - 1,100,000
base goku - 1,050,000
2nd form freeza - 1,000,001

according to toriyama

 

[p123]

I'd have it like this.

1) Initial Freeza ( Power Vegeta was somewhat confident going up against, this is the same power he uses against Goku initially as well )

This level Vegeta is probably somewhere like 88% of it's power. Enough to be just barely competitive, but he's clearly in a bad situation. Similar to his power gap with Freeza's first form, Goku vs Cell, Vegeta vs Zarbon and so on. Close enough to be considered rivaling range by some, but all in all, they are probably too far away from being competitive to have a real chance. He should be able to last ditch sucker Freeza into taking a blast and being able to win.

2) Increased Freeza ( Power used to humiliate Vegeta, easily avoiding him and whooping his ass, power used to fight Goku after getting clowned by him initially )

Freeza perhaps raises his ability up 1.2-1.33x or so. He goes from Vegeta barely able to hang on to Vegeta being completely blown out. Vegeta still does think that he can defeat Freeza with a souped up blast as does Piccolo as well.

3) Fully Serious Freeza ( Used to Kick away blast from Vegeta and fight Goku seriously )

Freeza can tell by the size, the speed or just the feel of the ki blast coming his way that this is not something he can easily handle. He has to go all out here without a doubt in my mind. He is able to kick the blast back with this power, surprising everyone. I think this signifies his level has advanced. He's clearly a lot more serious kicking the blast then he was at any other time. I also think this is the power he uses with no hands, where he is fully concentrated and going all out in this current form.

So I see it as three powers personally and I think he uses all three stages against Vegeta and Goku respectively.

So in chain form it would be something like this...


Freeza Full Power > Goku Full Power > Freeza More Serious >= Goku ( Initial ) > Freeza Initial > Vegeta

I think my logic is sound and I don't think I ever fleshed this idea out thoroughly enough. I definitely feel this is the correct path for the situation.

 

[ahill1]

Hmm, well put. I never felt Freeza (kicking Vegeta's blast) was = Freeza (no hands), I felt it was just the power used to match his speed increase.

Do you have Freeza increasing his power as well, initially against Vegeta?

 

[SSJ2]

http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?p=157384#p157384

 

[p123]

Nice. SSJ2 is always on point.

Couple of questions for you.

1) When Freeza kicked away the blast, was it a change in effort alone, or power too?

2) After Freeza kicked the blast away, did he remain at that power, if it did change, or did he go back to his level that he used to outspeed Vegeta badly?

3) When Goku arrives, what level of power is he using now? The power he used at the blast, the power he used to outspeed Vegeta or his initial power?

4) When he decides to get serious, do you think this power trumps everything else seen before hand?

 

[SSJ2]

1) Tough to say. Perhaps he just increased his effort to match his increased speed power-wise, if that makes sense.

2) Probably, if he matched the power to the speed then sure.

3) Blast. Yeah. He certainly shouldn't be using a lower effort considering how pissed he was when Goku got the better of him in their first exchange. Don't see why he would hold back knowing Goku had the power to kick him down. He was also surprised when Goku knocked back the death beams, so Goku should be > Freeza when he kicked away Vegeta's attack imo. He's also visibly scared when Vegeta mentions that Goku is the real Super Saiyan.

4) Yes, going along with what I've said before. If Freeza is surprised that Goku could block all of the Death Beams, then he should be at a level that Freeza hasn't seen yet imo. So after warm up they should both be an unseen level.

 

[Kyo]

I fed those lines to @Schutzstaffel through an earpiece

 

[ahill1]

These questions are pretty interesting and are basically the key point to figure out the gaps. I'll try to reply based on what I think:

1) When Freeza kicked away the blast, was it a change in effort alone, or power too?

Freeza initially said he did rise his speed when dodging Vegeta, so I tend to think Freeza (kicking Vegeta's blast) was just him matching his speed used to tool Vegeta.

2) After Freeza kicked the blast away, did he remain at that power, if it did change, or did he go back to his level that he used to outspeed Vegeta badly?

I think he remained at this power, which is a power which matches his speed used to tool Vegeta.

But this also raises a question: can you increase speed surpassing your power? I always thought this was a weird situation. How can you take speed from nothing? Look at Tenshinhan in the 23rd Budokai, he was witholding speed, whereas his power was above the speed he was using initially against weighted Goku. The same for Cell, he was just witholding speed against Goku, whereas his power was higher than that. So I could see a scenario like this:

Figher x:
Power : 100
Speed : 80
Speed inncrease : 100 (he only raised speed to match his power, that is, was witholding speed)

Fighter x:
Power : 100
Speed : 100
Speed increase : 125

^That's a scenarion which could never happen imo. How do you increase speed, surpassing the power you were using? You cannot take speed from his ass.

3) When Goku arrives, what level of power is he using now? The power he used at the blast, the power he used to outspeed Vegeta or his initial power?

Tough question. I think he's likely to be using the same level he used against Vegeta, at least from my POV:

Freeza (warm up) >= Goku (warm up) >> Freeza (tooling Vegeta) >> Freeza (initial) >= Vegeta

4) When he decides to get serious, do you think this power trumps everything else seen before hand?

I think it likely does. But do you think Freeza (kicking Vegeta's blast) = Freeza (non hands), right?

Show me how you see it numerically, please.

 

[SSJ2]

Ahill why do you suddenly turn into a Priestly figure when P is around?

 

[ahill1]

3) Blast. Yeah. He certainly shouldn't be using a lower effort considering how pissed he was when Goku got the better of him in their first exchange. Don't see why he would hold back knowing Goku had the power to kick him down. He was also surprised when Goku knocked back the death beams, so Goku should be > Freeza when he kicked away Vegeta's attack imo. He's also visibly scared when Vegeta mentions that Goku is the real Super Saiyan.

P is referring to their initial exchange, where Goku bested him.

4) Yes, going along with what I've said before. If Freeza is surprised that Goku could block all of the Death Beams, then he should be at a level that Freeza hasn't seen yet imo. So after warm up they should both be an unseen level.

He's referring to non hands Freeza.

 

[SSJ2]

Ahill why do you suddenly turn into a Priestly figure when P is around?

 

[ahill1]

What do you mean

 

[SSJ2]

Just know that Priests enjoying touching little boys.