Goku (vs Freeza)

[SSJ2]

Hey man I just said your post was mondo yuge don't hate on me

 

[freezamite]

HAHAHAHAH I think we found our new Toshit!

Hahahah it would be better for you if you found an actual copy of the Dragon Ball manga so you could at least know your facts when speaking about Power Levels

Hey man I just said your post was mondo yuge don't hate on me

Don't know what mondo yuge means but don't worry, as I said, you can go with the DB anime power scale if like it seems you don't like what's said in the manga at all

 

[ekrolo2]

I don't see any point where Goku's power is stated to be 3 million in Super Saiyan, literally nowhere, not even the Daizenshuu or SEG which are meant to complement the manga say this. Nor does Goku have the KK aura when he fights Freeza up until King Kai says he's using it against Freeza's 50%, meaning he must be in the low millions in Base to counter him.

 

[freezamite]

I don't see any point where Goku's power is stated to be 3 million in Super Saiyan, literally nowhere, not even the Daizenshuu or SEG which are meant to complement the manga say this.

It's never directly stated, but since we know the strength increase Cell needed to overcome KamiPiccolo it's pretty easy to powerscale and have a pretty accurate number of Goku SSJ.

Nor does Goku have the KK aura when he fights Freeza up until King Kai says he's using it against Freeza's 50%, meaning he must be in the low millions in Base to counter him.

In fact, in the manga Goku doesn't have the KK aura until he uses the KKx20. The KKx10 aura was never drawn I assume for dramatic reasons (the KK had been Goku's last resort until then, so a visible KK aura would have de-hyped the fight since the beginning).
We know Goku is using the KK x10 because Kaito tells us and then Goku confirms it when he jumps directly to his KKx20, but since the KKx10 aura is never drawn and it's never stated when Goku activates the KK the only possible explanation is that he was using it since the beginning (that's one of Toei's biggest mistakes in fact, to suddenly draw the KKx10 aura implying Goku had been fighting without it until then).

 

[ekrolo2]

It's never directly stated, but since we know the strength increase Cell needed to overcome KamiPiccolo it's pretty easy to powerscale and have a pretty accurate number of Goku SSJ.

I don't see why Kamiccolo is important to this discussion.

Nor does Goku have the KK aura when he fights Freeza up until King Kai says he's using it against Freeza's 50%, meaning he must be in the low millions in Base to counter him.

In fact, in the manga Goku doesn't have the KK aura until he uses the KKx20. The KKx10 aura was never drawn I assume for dramatic reasons (the KK had been Goku's last resort until then, so a visible KK aura would have de-hyped the fight since the beginning).
We know Goku is using the KK x10 because Kaito tells us and then Goku confirms it when he jumps directly to his KKx20, but the KKx10 aura is never drawn (that's one of Toei's biggest mistakes in fact, to suddenly draw the KKx10 aura implying Goku had been fighting without it until then).

I'm not talking about Toei or the anime, the manga doesn't have the aura either until Tien cockily says Goku still has the KK and King Kai says Goku's already using it and its not working. The Full Color manga shows us that Goku only has the aura at this point and when he uses KKX20, nowhere else.

 

[Void]

Show where the manga puts Goku at 3 million.

 

[freezamite]

I'm not talking about Toei or the anime, the manga doesn't have the aura either until Tien cockily says Goku still has the KK and King Kai says Goku's already using it and its not working. The Full Color manga shows us that Goku only has the aura at this point and when he uses KKX20, nowhere else.

The full Color manga wasn't colored by Toriyama, and it has the same mistake the anime made. Think about it for a second, and you'll see it doesn't make any sense:
If the KKx10 aura is drawn, that automatically means that when Goku doesn't have the aura is in his normal base state.
The KK aura is drawn after Freezer has already hit Goku with 50% of his power, Goku resists the impact despite being 20 times weaker (you could argue that Freezer was hitting him as softly as he could) and then Goku suddenly activates the KKx10 without absolutely nobody reacting to it (not even a comment from Piccolo & co) and without any kind of effect in the battle (not even Freezer is taken by surprise despite him being attacked from behind and him being unable to sense the PL of a fighter).

That alone already contradicts the manga in multiple points. Firstly, when a fighter suddenly increased his strength there was always a "surprise factor" as an immediate consequence.
1. When Goku activates the KKx2 against Vegeta, despite still being much weaker he manages to connect a couple of hits thanks to that sudden increase.
2. When Freezer went from 50% to 70%, despite 70% still being much weaker than Goku SSJ, he still manages to take SSJ Goku by surprise.
3. When Goku suddenly activates the KKx20 to attack Freezer, he takes Freezer by surprise and can connect the first hit (and Freezer manages to dodge the second one despite being at a disadvantageous position, demonstrating that he was still much stronger than KKx20 Goku).

But now Goku suddenly multiplies his power by 10, nobody notices nor comments that change nor it doesn't have any impact on the fight, and all that while Freezer suddenly goes from being unable to detect kis to anticipate a surprise-ki increase in a way no other Z-fighter has ever done (not even himself when Goku simply goes from KKx10 to KKx20 -a 2x increase-).

To make it even more surreal, Freezer dynamically adapts the strength of his hits to Goku, because a hit able to damage KKx10 Goku would completely obliterate base Goku, so that means that Freezer in his 50% state does the following:
1. He starts hitting Goku with 6-7% of his currently deployed power (Freezer states that he could've killed Goku if he wanted so it's a possibility, although it's weird that he would increase his power so much only to then start hitting with such slow strength in his fists).
2. He suddenly develops the highest insight in power increses in the series, adapts to the sudden KKx10 activation, and reacts to it hitting Goku with 50-55% of his 50% power.
3. After that, he goes back to use only 6-7% of his currently deployed power to not 1-hit kill Goku, that's no longer using KKx10 (no aura is drawn anymore) because he suddenly can perceive when Goku is using the KK and when he isn't.
4. He forgets his newly acquired ability to anticipate sudden ki-increases and is taken by surprise by KKx20 Goku.

It's so forced and unnatural that it seems a chapter from Dragon Ball Super.
Why would Toriyama make the KKx10 activation so obscure and unnecessary? One could argue that after seeing 50% Freezer's power Goku decides to activate the KKx10, but why would that be the first time in the series that a character increases his power (and a 10x increase nonetheless, the highest mid-fight strength increase of the whole series) and nobody says anything about that? Nor Goku, nor Freezer nor anybody besides Kaito comments on the KKx10 and it's commented after the activation has been done and portrayed in a way that is totally obscure to the reader and never done again in the whole series.

A more reasonable explanation:
Goku was using the KKx10, and he knew that he still could reach to KKx20 if needed (that means KKx11 to KKx19 were also a possibility). Freezer increases his strength to 50% and overpowers that KKx10 Goku to the point he plays with him. Then Goku, acknowledging Freezer's power, uses the KKx20 and takes Freezer by surprise like in every other situation when a character has done something similar.

Show where the manga puts Goku at 3 million.

If 500.000 to 1.000.000 increase in strength was enough for Cell to overcome fused Piccolo like it was a fly, it's obvious that the PL of SSJ Goku wasn't in the hundreds of millions like the anime or the full of errors Daizenshuu guides like to point.

 

[ekrolo2]

To avoid giving myself an inoperable brain tumor from processing all that shit, I'm gonna ask you this: how do you reconcile this invisible KK shit with the later arcs? Cause we know for a fact Vegeta is in the low millions in Base alone, so unless you arbitrarily make Goku's SS boost bigger for no good reason, it doesn't jive with the later material.

 

[Pyro]

Goku was never thinking of Kaio-ken x20 until the moment he desperately needed it. Before that, Kaio-ken x10 was as high as he was committing to memory.

 

[freezamite]

To avoid giving myself an inoperable brain tumor from processing all that shit, I'm gonna ask you this: how do you reconcile this invisible KK shit with the later arcs? Cause we know for a fact Vegeta is in the low millions in Base alone, so unless you arbitrarily make Goku's SS boost bigger for no good reason, it doesn't jive with the later material.

Unlike your Toei-style interpretations that contradict the manga at multiple points and also lack any kind of coherence, of course I have a good explanation on why Goku SSJ is better than Vegeta's.
The SSJ is never a fixed transformation and its effectivity increases the more the user dominates its ki and the stress produced by the transformation (have you ever read the series? Because that was well explained during the Cell saga, and if you still haven't reached that far, you have Nappa as a prime example of someone not being able to properly display his Ki in a fight due to not controlling his emotions).
Goku's main advantage over almost every other character in the series is the control he has over his ki (he is the only one able to use the KK which is a technique based on having complete control of one's ki), so it's only logical that despite being inferior in terms of brute strength his SSJ boost would put him at the same level or even above Vegeta, who despite not being completely useless it was way worse than Goku when it came to that.

Now I'm sure you will be able to reasonably explain to me how could Freezer anticipate the sudden 10x increase, why did Goku deactivate the KKx10 after he just activated it in what would be one of the most retarded actions in the series, why would Freezer modulate the strength of his hits to constantly adapt to Goku's retarded decisions and why would that be the first time in the series where a fighter increases his strength and nobody comments it.

Goku was never thinking of Kaio-ken x20 until the moment he desperately needed it. Before that, Kaio-ken x10 was as high as he was committing to memory.

True, the KKx20 was his last resort and I also don't think he thought he would need it. But between the KKx10 he was using and the KKx20 there is the KKx11, the KKx12 (etc.) and Goku was confident he could increase his power even more, so that means that he contemplated those KK levels.
In a normal fight, going from KKx10 to KKx11 would already be a decisive increase if the other fighter couldn't reply it. Goku knew Freezer had more strength but I'm sure he could've reached the KKx12 or even KKx13 without wasting his body too much (in fact, judging the strength he still has after the KKx20 activation, the KKx20 had more or less the same effect the KKx3 had to him when he fought against Vegeta).

 

[SIAD]

I still do not understand why the level of Goku SSJ (Namek) is 3,000,000?

Personally, I very much doubt that AT has used the logic of Cell Imperfecto (FP) = Cell Imperfecto (Initial) + "X" Human absorbed.

Personally, I would like to put Goku Base (Namek) with 8,500,000.

I have:

First Form Freezer (FP) = 530,000
Freezer Second Form (Initial) = 1,060,000
Freezer Second Form (First Power Up) = 1,200,000
Freezer Second Form (FP) = 1,440,000
Third Form Freezer = 2,500,000
Freezer Fourth Form (Initial) = 4,000,000
Freezer Fourth Form (Vs Vegeta / Vs Goku Initial) = 8,000,000
100% Freezer = 400,000,000

 

[freezamite]

I still do not understand why the level of Goku SSJ (Namek) is 3,000,000?

Personally, I very much doubt that AT has used the logic of Cell Imperfecto (FP) = Cell Imperfecto (Initial) + "X" Human absorbed.

Personally, I would like to put Goku Base (Namek) with 8,500,000.

I have:

First Form Freezer (FP) = 530,000
Freezer Second Form (Initial) = 1,060,000
Freezer Second Form (First Power Up) = 1,200,000
Freezer Second Form (FP) = 1,440,000
Third Form Freezer = 2,500,000
Freezer Fourth Form (Initial) = 4,000,000
Freezer Fourth Form (Vs Vegeta / Vs Goku Initial) = 8,000,000
100% Freezer = 400,000,000

Well, when Cell explained his absorption to Piccolo it was directly stated that he added the absorbed power to his own, and it was latter confirmed when Piccolo stopped his farce and literally said "even with the energy of my arm I'm still stronger than you" that further confirms that that's how it works.
Toriyama gave a vague number (hundreds of thousands) because he wasn't calculating everything to the single units, but I'm sure that if he thought of the SSJ as fighters with multiple millions of units he would've said "millions of humans" instead of "hundreds of thousands".

We also have references from the Bu saga that point towards much lower increases. For example, we know Goku weighted around 60kg so at 100G (90.000 units) that would be 6 tons. In my estimations Goku's base state peaked between the 300.000 and 400.000 units (scaling directly, 300.000 would allow fast movement with a weight of 20 tons), which would justify why he couldn't lift 40 tons when he was training with Kaito without transforming into a SSJ.

And then we have to take into account the rest of the Z-fighters. For the humans like Krilin or Ten that didn't have Zenkays if we go so high with the power of the SSJ then what they do in the Cell saga (Ten retaining Cell for a few seconds) would require millions and millions of units of energy, and that would also break what a human is supposed to be able to do.

Those really high numbers of units are impossible to justify without accepting that the manga was full of errors when it came to power scaling, but considering that everything is much more consistent when we go with lower numbers, I don't know why we shouldn't do it. Furthermore, the only interview where Toriyama speaks about Power Levels (and not while joking) was the one where he confirmed that Goku SSJ was just as strong as when he used the KKx10 in Namek, so that alone should put the Daizenshuu made in Toei numbers to rest once and for all.

 

[ahill1]

@p123, what do you think?

Freeza (1st form) 530,000
Gohan (enranged) 1,000,000
Freeza 2nd form (initial) 1,060,000
Freeza 2nd form (powered up) 1,300,000
Piccolo (weighted) 1,350,000
Freeza 2nd form (full power) 1,590,000
Piccolo (w/o weights) 1,687,500
Gohan (Zenkai) 1,000,000
~Enranged + Masenko 2,150,000
Freeza 3rd form 2,250,000
Vegeta (Zenkai) 3,375,000
Freeza final form (initial) 3,800,000
Freeza final form (speed up) 5,300,000
~kicking Vegeta's blast 7,700,000
Freeza final form (underestimating Goku) 3,800,000
Goku base (initial/warming up) 5,000,000
Freeza final form (warming up) 5,300,000
Goku base (warm up over/full power) 7,000,000
Freeza (non hands) 7,700,000


Looks pretty good to me.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

I still do not understand why the level of Goku SSJ (Namek) is 3,000,000?

Personally, I very much doubt that AT has used the logic of Cell Imperfecto (FP) = Cell Imperfecto (Initial) + "X" Human absorbed.

Personally, I would like to put Goku Base (Namek) with 8,500,000.

I have:

First Form Freezer (FP) = 530,000
Freezer Second Form (Initial) = 1,060,000
Freezer Second Form (First Power Up) = 1,200,000
Freezer Second Form (FP) = 1,440,000
Third Form Freezer = 2,500,000
Freezer Fourth Form (Initial) = 4,000,000
Freezer Fourth Form (Vs Vegeta / Vs Goku Initial) = 8,000,000
100% Freezer = 400,000,000

Well, when Cell explained his absorption to Piccolo it was directly stated that he added the absorbed power to his own, and it was latter confirmed when Piccolo stopped his farce and literally said "even with the energy of my arm I'm still stronger than you" that further confirms that that's how it works.
Toriyama gave a vague number (hundreds of thousands) because he wasn't calculating everything to the single units, but I'm sure that if he thought of the SSJ as fighters with multiple millions of units he would've said "millions of humans" instead of "hundreds of thousands".

We also have references from the Bu saga that point towards much lower increases. For example, we know Goku weighted around 60kg so at 100G (90.000 units) that would be 6 tons. In my estimations Goku's base state peaked between the 300.000 and 400.000 units (scaling directly, 300.000 would allow fast movement with a weight of 20 tons), which would justify why he couldn't lift 40 tons when he was training with Kaito without transforming into a SSJ.

And then we have to take into account the rest of the Z-fighters. For the humans like Krilin or Ten that didn't have Zenkays if we go so high with the power of the SSJ then what they do in the Cell saga (Ten retaining Cell for a few seconds) would require millions and millions of units of energy, and that would also break what a human is supposed to be able to do.

Those really high numbers of units are impossible to justify without accepting that the manga was full of errors when it came to power scaling, but considering that everything is much more consistent when we go with lower numbers, I don't know why we shouldn't do it. Furthermore, the only interview where Toriyama speaks about Power Levels (and not while joking) was the one where he confirmed that Goku SSJ was just as strong as when he used the KKx10 in Namek, so that alone should put the Daizenshuu made in Toei numbers to rest once and for all.

hundreds of thousands is anywhere from 200,000 to 1,999,999. Taking the average would be ~1,100,000. 1,100,000 x 5 is 5.5 million

The question is whether we take that statement as being more important than the many other statements we use to get our "high" numbers.

 

[p123]

Looks pretty damn good, another time I will check out all the percentages, that's a great guideline though, could you post that in my power level thread so I can reference it later?

 

[ahill1]

Ok, thanks!

 

[freezamite]

hundreds of thousands is anywhere from 200,000 to 1,999,999. Taking the average would be ~1,100,000. 1,100,000 x 5 is 5.5 million

The question is whether we take that statement as being more important than the many other statements we use to get our "high" numbers.

Hundret of thousands 1,999,999? I mean, that's nearly two milions. And even if you meant 999,999, it's obvious that no one would ever use the "hundreds of thousands" expression if what they meant was "a million" or "almost a million".
Hundreds of thousands, realistically speaking, would go from 200,000 to 800,000 at the very best (although from 500.000 onwards the expression "more than half a million" would've been more natural and make more sense). And besides that, you're using 5 units per human when 5 units was an adult male farmer. Does a 3 year old girl has the same strength as that farmer? No, it doesn't. The average per human (counting childs, old people, ill people, etc) would be around 2-3 units of power.

And then there is the how many tons can base goku lift of the Bu saga, that also confirms that his base power peaked between 300.000 and 400.000 units of power.

On the other hand, I'm still waiting to see one of those statements of the manga that support your high numbers. I mean, as of now, all I've read to defend those numbers in front of what's written in the manga are vague statements like "Toriyama didn't think about that" or "Toriyama wasn't very good and we know better than him" which to me aren't valid proof of those high numbers being correct.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Literally every statement that we use to support x >/>>> y contradicts what you're saying

And it is 1,999,999. It's either hundreds of thousands or millions and millions starts at 2 million

 

[freezamite]

Literally every statement that we use to support x >/>>> y contradicts what you're saying

And it is 1,999,999. It's either hundreds of thousands or millions and millions starts at 2 million

"Literally every statement" but it happens that you still haven't post any single statement demonstrating that those "low" numbers are wrong. I've already given 2 solid examples as of why the numbers should be lower, and I'm still waiting for a single example of the contrary being demonstrated.

But what impresses me the most is that "it's either hundreds of thousands or millions and millions starts at 2". So, if you win 1,000,000 do you say you've won "hundreds of thousands" because now it seems it's forbidden by law to say "I've won a million"? Why couldn't "a million", "nearly a million" or "more than a million" be used instead of "hundreds of thousands"?

Here we're trying to guess what Toriyama was thinking, and unless you give me a good reason why he couldn't write anything else than "hundreds of thousands or millions" your interpretation of "hundreds of thousands" being 1,999,999 is so unnatural and forced that it seems, again, taken directly from the Dragon Ball Super anime.

 

[SIAD]

hundreds of thousands is anywhere from 200,000 to 1,999,999. Taking the average would be ~1,100,000. 1,100,000 x 5 is 5.5 million

The question is whether we take that statement as being more important than the many other statements we use to get our "high" numbers.

Hundret of thousands 1,999,999? I mean, that's nearly two milions. And even if you meant 999,999, it's obvious that no one would ever use the "hundreds of thousands" expression if what they meant was "a million" or "almost a million".
Hundreds of thousands, realistically speaking, would go from 200,000 to 800,000 at the very best (although from 500.000 onwards the expression "more than half a million" would've been more natural and make more sense). And besides that, you're using 5 units per human when 5 units was an adult male farmer. Does a 3 year old girl has the same strength as that farmer? No, it doesn't. The average per human (counting childs, old people, ill people, etc) would be around 2-3 units of power.

And then there is the how many tons can base goku lift of the Bu saga, that also confirms that his base power peaked between 300.000 and 400.000 units of power.

On the other hand, I'm still waiting to see one of those statements of the manga that support your high numbers. I mean, as of now, all I've read to defend those numbers in front of what's written in the manga are vague statements like "Toriyama didn't think about that" or "Toriyama wasn't very good and we know better than him" which to me aren't valid proof of those high numbers being correct.

Are you saying that the power of Goku Base (Boo) was 400,000?

Then as it is possible that Goku SSJ2 (Boo) = Majin Vegeta SSJ2. According to your logic, the power of Vegeta (Fourth Zenkai), should be at least> Piccolo (Fused with Neil).

What about the Base children and with a very uncomfortable suit, fighting at the same level as # 18