Good Boo >= Freeza 1rst Form (Post)

[Evil Vegeta]

Uh, no:

Piccolo: "Take a look at his Chi."
Krillin: "He's on a completely different level from the ones we've fought so far."
Gohan: "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I have when at my best."
Piccolo: "What?!"

Gohan's best is obviously when he's Ultimate. Ginyu brought all of Tagoma's power out, with Piccolo commenting that his power was higher than before.

Anyway, Gohan is regarded as the most dangerous (before anyone knew he could transform, obviously) on the team.

 

[kriss-]

Tagoma was incapable of beating Gohan as a Super Saiyan, that is implied to be his best, otherwise the statement is a false pretense.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Then it means Gohan's Super Saiyan works differently. We know Gohan's best is his Ultimate.

Gohan realized he couldn't become Ultimate during the battle with Ginyu, wondering if his lack of training is the reason why. So in his mind, he was expecting to use it. Since he wasn't sure if he could become Super Saiyan, then we can deduce that it works differently altogether now.

 

[kriss-]

You're suggesting Gohan believed Tagoma to be equal to his best, which you think is his Mystic form. Because he couldn't achieve that he went with the next best thing, Super Saiyan. But Gohan says that he's gotten weaker due to slacking off with his training, so presumably, your argument causes a contradiction. Gohans estimation on Tagoma is a false presence.

Whereas I think, Gohan was talking about his current limits before realizing he could barely even handle super saiyan.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The only thing stated was that Gohan was slacking for the past six months. That doesn't mean he got way weaker at all. The fact that his Base is above Piccolo shows that it couldn't have been that much.

-Gohan says Tagoma's full-power is on-par with him at his best.
-Ginyu brings out all of his power.
-Gohan decides to fight Ginyu on his own and realizes that he lost his ability to become Ultimate, leaving him no choice but to use Super Saiyan.
-Super Saiyan Gohan easily defeats Ginyu despite the immense strain the form apparently puts on his body now.

Freeza>RoF Super Saiyan Gohan>Ginyu=RoF Ultimate Gohan (never shown)>Suppressed Tagoma>Base Gohan>Piccolo

Ultimate Gohan is regarded as Gohan's best. Super Saiyan is now a desperation power-up for Gohan to tap into when he has no other choice. It's simply a transformation he'd rather avoid using it if he could. That alone shows that it's vastly different than what we know.

 

[kriss-]

He stated that if he was trained, he could have protected everybody. This implies he was aware that he got weaker and is the reason why he went back to training afterwards.

-Gohans statement can imply that he's on par with his Super Saiyan form.
-Ginyu brings out that power.
-Gohan decides to transform into a Super Saiyan.

Significance: More or less a confirmation that Gohan lost his Ultimate state, which he received in the Majin Boo arc. When he finds himself unable to tap into his full power, he resorts to Super Saiyan instead, which as we see is more than enough to handle Tagoma. Nothing to worry about, folks!

Nothing implies that Super Saiyan magically brought Gohan to his Mystic level, not anywhere. If Tagoma was equal to Mystic Gohan as opposed to Super Saiyan Gohan, Gohan should have been single shotted.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

He stated that if he was trained, he could have protected everybody. This implies he was aware that he got weaker and is the reason why he went back to training afterwards.

How does this mean he got a lot weaker if the opposition was more formidable? If he doesn't train, then he'd still be weaker by default. Gohan didn't train for seven yrs and wasn't vastly weaker because of it. No reason to assume he'd get far weaker in six months.

-Gohans statement can imply that he's on par with his Super Saiyan form.
-Ginyu brings out that power.
-Gohan decides to transform into a Super Saiyan.

No, it wouldn't because he wasn't even considering Super Saiyan until after it was clear he couldn't become Ultimate. He had no intention of going Super Saiyan before that.

Nothing implies that Super Saiyan magically brought Gohan to his Mystic level, not anywhere. If Tagoma was equal to Mystic Gohan as opposed to Super Saiyan Gohan, Gohan should have been single shotted.

Assumption. Ginyu did nothing but block Gohan's hits the entire time before knocking him back and throwing some Chi-blasts. He wasn't taking Gohan seriously the entire time. Gohan never became Ultimate, but he was clear on Tagoma hiding power that rivaled his best. Super Saiyan takes his body to the limits. It's obviously different and far more of a unsure thing than Ultimate is, which is why he intended on becoming Ultimate despite believing he could "probably" turn Super Saiyan. The forms are different.

 

[kriss-]

Gohan said he kept training he could have protected everyone. Why couldn't he protect everyone? He got weaker.

Training or a lack of training doesn't work the same in all scenarios.

Gohan is referencing his present limits, otherwise is creates a false pretense. Tagoma got stronger than he expected and Ginyu brought him further than that. Your argument creates a paradox.

Super Saiyan 3 takes the body to its limits, Gohans mystic form brings him past his limits. So now we're going to assume Gohan is referencing Super Saiyan 3?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

He said if he continued to train like his father, he would've been able to protect everyone. You train to gain power. If Gohan is a 10 and the new (Freeza) enemy is a 20, it doesn't mean he got a lot weaker--it means he failed to keep up with his training. Therefore, Gohan didn't need to plummet that much in power because a Gohan doing no training for seven yrs didn't decrease nearly that much.

No, he's referring to Super Saiyan. His body can't handle the transformation for long, painting a completely different picture than we've ever seen of the form. Gohan doing next to nothing for seven yrs can even hold Super Saiyan without it straining his body. Gohan had no issue becoming a Super Saiyan six months before, yet he's not sure if he can do it now. It's obvious his body and Super Saiyan work differently in Super.

 

[kriss-]

Gohan was brought way past his limits, additional training shouldn't logically, do nothing. Gohan was weak enough by this point that Piccolo was an adequate training partner. This is before Piccolo even underwent training for the tournament. Oh, and don't argue that that means Gohan is near Piccolo, because Tagoma was able to help Freeza train and surpass everyone.

Gohan simply got too weak to handle transforming into a Super Saiyan properly. When Gohan is inside the Rosat, he couldn't even handle it. It's the same thing here.

Arguing that Gohan thinks Tagoma is equal to Ultimate Gohan, then powers up and then powers up some more once Ginyu is involved, creates contradictions and makes his statements a false pretense.

 

[Papasmurf]

Evil Vegeta's argument on Gohan's Ultimate and Super Saiyan forms interacting is interesting and brings a new spin to things that I hadn't thought of before. If I were to point out one issue though, it'd be that Gohan states before he fought Tagoma that he's not sure he can turn Super Saiyan without even trying to tap into his Ultimate power first. It makes it look as though Gohan considers it an option before the fights even began.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Again, this just shows that Gohan's powers as a whole differ from the others. If you subscribe to Freeza>Base Goku (BoG), then how would a significantly weaker Gohan be comparable to Piccolo? RoF states Gohan's considered the most dangerous warrior in the group, so Base Gohan>Piccolo is stated. Gohan was clearly shown to be stronger, anyway. Piccolo was having trouble getting up.

Gohan didn't train for seven yrs and could still control Super Saiyan and even change into Super Saiyan 2. Gohan lost his Ultimate form within six months and Super Saiyan became a much more strenuous form. He wasn't significantly weaker; his forms were just vastly different.

I'm not arguing anything. Gohan says it. His Base obviously isn't his best, his Super Saiyan is something he doesn't even want to consider. The only candidate would be his Ultimate form. Considering he mentions this while fighting Ginyu, it's pointless to exclude.

Smurf, that's a good point. I think Gohan was just looking at Super Saiyan as his trump card, while his Ultimate would've just been his go to power.

 

[Papasmurf]

True, perhaps he was "saving" Super Saiyan in case he needed it to stall Freeza as they were waiting for Goku to arrive. He clearly seems to think using Super Saiyan shouldn't be on his priority list when he gets beaten up by Ginyu and resorts to it.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, Super Saiyan just seems so forbidden for Gohan to use now. It's almost like a different from altogether.

Gohan seems to think his body can't handle it for too long anymore, and we see that he's tearing apart his body when he gets angry.

Btw, the rosat Gohan example is horseshit. Gohan couldn't hold the form because it was his first time using it. Goku even said Gohan will need to get used to the form a bit. That isn't anywhere near being a comparable instance.

 

[kriss-]

Gohan still has Super Saiyan as a viable means of powering up, and he was previously proven to be quite power, he would undeniably be regarded as the most dangerous fighter without any present evidence to suggest otherwise.

The Rosat argument is indicative that when his body isn't used to transforming anymore, it no longer works as a valid way of powering up. Implying Gohan became even more rusty, and weaker than he was almost anytime beforehand.

Using your logic creates contradictions.

 

[Papasmurf]

Base Gohan > Piccolo pretty much ensures he's stronger than he was in the Cell Game and early Boo arc, not weaker.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Except Freeza's army regarded him as the most dangerous of the team having no prior knowledge he can transform. Base Gohan is shown and stated to be stronger than Piccolo, so there's no reason to assume his power plummeted. It's not even like this is an assumption because it's friggin stated.

Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 for seven yrs and had no issues changing into it when he felt like it. His Super Saiyan is just a different form altogether in Super.

 

[kriss-]

So? Babadi and Dabra understood that Goku and Vegeta had marvelous energy. Their scouters could have potentially picked up on something that otherwise wasn't explicitly noted.

Training and a lack of training doesn't scale linearly in Dragonball, it never will. It's all plot dependent.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Or Gohan is just more powerful. Gohan is not only stated to be the most dangerous fighter, but he also fights when Piccolo can barely get up. Base Gohan>Piccolo is shown and requires no assumptions.

That doesn't change the point. If Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, then he obviously didn't get nearly as weak as you'd like to believe.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Minute: 22~23
Gohan (narrating the NEP): “This Tagoma person is on a completely different level from the other soldiers. He’s hiding power at least on par with my own! No way... His power rose even higher?! What's that bizarre pose?!”

This statement shows that Gohan's overall consideration of Tagoma is that Tagoma's battle power was at least on par with his own, but than he says that Tagoma surpassed it. This was before he became a Super Saiyan. If you believe that Gohan was referring his Ultimate Form, than Tagoma surpassed what Gohan considered his full potential, but this causes a contradiction because he one-shots him directly afterwards.

He isn't considering his Mystic form, at least that much is clear.

Where is the evidence to determine that Piccolo is stronger than Base Gohan during the Freeza Arc?

The fighting feats iirc