Goten and Trunks are in M10 and M11 nerfed?

[kriss-]

The suspension of disbelief can only go so far. Under these circumstances its highly illogical that fighters on the strength level of Teen Gohan SSj would be incapable of one-shotting Android 18 under any sort of conditions, regardless of whatever heresy you think best explains the situation.

 

[Six Trails]

Arguing with your own arbitrary rules is a fail. What exactly says that a clown suit that restricts your movements couldn't prevent you from physically defeating someone much weaker than you? Nothing at all if I recall correctly.

Also, the kids can one-shot #18. If a SUPPRESSED Ki blast is enough to make her worry for her life, then what is a full-power Ki blast going to do to her?

 

[Papasmurf]

They don't necessarily HAVE to be nerfed, since #18 was clearly way irrelevant to the kids and Bio-Faggot. But since this is Toei, I could see them nerfing both the kids to Semi-Cell levels while putting Bio at like SSJg2 1st Rosat Trunks tier just 'cuz.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@Captain Cadaver hopefully give us your opinion.

For Movie 10, they were likely nerfed in comparison to their manga selves, or in other words, similar to their filler selves. Movie 11 is more questionable, though I'd likely say the same due to Toei's general treatment of the kids.

 

[SIAD]

@Captain Cadaver hopefully give us your opinion.

For Movie 10, they were likely nerfed in comparison to their manga selves, or in other words, similar to their filler selves. Movie 11 is more questionable, though I'd likely say the same due to Toei's general treatment of the kids.

How powerful you have to Bio Broly LSSJ? Level Android # 16 or Semi Perfect Cell level or level of Dabura?

 

[kriss-]

Arguing with your own arbitrary rules is a fail. What exactly says that a clown suit that restricts your movements couldn't prevent you from physically defeating someone much weaker than you? Nothing at all if I recall correctly.

Also, the kids can one-shot #18. If a SUPPRESSED Ki blast is enough to make her worry for her life, then what is a full-power Ki blast going to do to her?

It's highly illogical that someone of Super Saiyan Gohan's level could be beaten by someone like Android 18, or have difficulty one-shotting her physically.

They are not implied to be a league above her and it's common sense that dictates how over-rated they actually are -aside from a few sparring sessions that can be explained for essentially what they are; sparring sessions, they are never implied or shown to be anywhere close where you or anyone else thinks for that matter.

Not in any other statement, fight scene or material that comes afterwards.

They are highly over-rated.

 

[Six Trails]

It's highly illogical that someone of Super Saiyan Gohan's level could be beaten by someone like Android 18, or have difficulty one-shotting her physically.

Again, your argument is extremely arbitrary. Can you prove that two small SS Gohans in a restricting suit could defeat #18? If not then you don't have a case here.

They are not implied to be a league above her

They are. The fact that Trunks while not even at full power makes her scared for her own life speaks volumes about how they relate to her.

and it's common sense that dictates how over-rated they actually are

What "common sense" is to you isn't necessarily common sense to someone else.

-aside from a few sparring sessions that can be explained for essentially what they are; sparring sessions

How is that an argument exactly? By the same twisted logic I could just as easily say that Goten is much stronger than Gohan and if they weren't sparring then Goten would one-shot Gohan. Not that it'd hold any merit; I'm just showing you how your argument is incorrect.

Also, we've seen sparring matches before where the much stronger person blocks the other person's attacks with ease. If Gohan is much stronger than Goten then shouldn't he be able to block Goten's blows with ease? And shouldn't Vegeta be able to easily dodge Trunks if he is much stronger? Or are these two situations the only exceptions because it's convenient for you?

Poor argument.

they are never implied or shown to be anywhere close where you or anyone else thinks for that matter.

Not in any other statement, fight scene or material that comes afterwards.

Except for the mentioned feats of giving Gohan a hard time, landing a hit on Vegeta, and nearly one-shotting #18 while not even at full power.

They are highly over-rated.

They're not overrated at all. They're underrated because people can't seem to accept the sentiment of strong children when that's clearly a recurring theme in Dragon Ball. No amount of excuses can change the fact that they're on par with Gohan and not leagues below the adults.

 

[kriss-]

It's highly illogical that someone of Super Saiyan Gohan's level could be beaten by someone like Android 18, or have difficulty one-shotting her physically.

Again, your argument is extremely arbitrary. Can you prove that two small SS Gohans in a restricting suit could defeat #18? If not then you don't have a case here.

They are not implied to be a league above her

They are. The fact that Trunks while not even at full power makes her scared for her own life speaks volumes about how they relate to her.

and it's common sense that dictates how over-rated they actually are

What "common sense" is to you isn't necessarily common sense to someone else.

-aside from a few sparring sessions that can be explained for essentially what they are; sparring sessions

How is that an argument exactly? By the same twisted logic I could just as easily say that Goten is much stronger than Gohan and if they weren't sparring then Goten would one-shot Gohan. Not that it'd hold any merit; I'm just showing you how your argument is incorrect.

Also, we've seen sparring matches before where the much stronger person blocks the other person's attacks with ease. If Gohan is much stronger than Goten then shouldn't he be able to block Goten's blows with ease? And shouldn't Vegeta be able to easily dodge Trunks if he is much stronger? Or are these two situations the only exception because it's convenient for you?

Poor argument.

they are never implied or shown to be anywhere close where you or anyone else thinks for that matter.

Not in any other statement, fight scene or material that comes afterwards.

Except for the mentioned feats of giving Gohan a hard time, landing a hit on Vegeta, and nearly one-shotting #18 while not even at full power.

They are highly over-rated.

They're not overrated at all. They're underrated because people can't seem to accept the sentiment of strong children when that's clearly a recurring theme in Dragon Ball. No amount of excuses can change the fact that they're on par with Gohan and not leagues below the adults.

Sparring is completely different from fighting. Goten was unable to land a single hit and was completely blown away by Gohan's strength.

You are also placing emphasis on a fan made myth that gaps scale linearly, they don't. So no, Vegeta doesn't have to be capable of blocking someone's attacks easily when the entire situation can be explained by: a) Both Gohan and Vegeta being caught off guard and b) In an actual fight, they aren't capable of so much.

Android 18 was suppressed to the level of a human and she was taken off-guard and still dodged it, what does that say about them? And of course she would be surprised that they were capable of what they were -after all, they're just kids.

 

[Six Trails]

Sparring is completely different from fighting.

You keep saying that but you never back it up. Why is it different exactly? I just explained to you that there have been sparring sessions where the stronger fighter easily blocks the weaker one's blows. Why isn't that the same with Gohan and Vegeta?

Goten was unable to land a single hit and was completely blown away by Gohan's strength.

Which can be explained by 1) a noticeable power advantage and 2) a big skill advantage. Not only that, but Gohan was on the defensive the whole time.

You are also placing emphasis on a fan made myth that gaps scale linearly, they don't.

My argument has nothing to do with gaps or numbers. Just the fact that Goten and Trunks are strong enough to give Gohan and Vegeta trouble. Though this argument is incredibly easy to turn back onto you:

"Your argument is based on the fact that Goten and Trunks can't one-shot #18 physically. But gaps aren't linear, so Trunks and Goten can be multiple times stronger and still no be able to one-shot her since gaps aren't linear."

So no, Vegeta doesn't have to be capable of blocking someone's attacks easily when the entire situation can be explained by: a) Both Gohan and Vegeta being caught off guard and b) In an actual fight, they aren't capable of so much.

You can explain Vegeta's situation by being off-guard, but it really doesn't work with Gohan. In Gohan and Goten's second sparring session, Gohan had already known Goten's strength and still had difficulty against him. Unless you're claiming that Gohan is suffering from amnesia, then there's nothing for him to be surprised about.

As for b: Again, you keep claiming that in a real fight Goten and Trunks couldn't do anything. Making claims with backing them up isn't an argument at all.

Android 18 was suppressed to the level of a human and she was taken off-guard and still dodged it

Prove it.

And of course she would be surprised that they were capable of what they were -after all, they're just kids.

She wasn't only surprised, she was worried for her life.

 

[kriss-]

Sparring is a training session where you intentionally hold back in order to hone your skills. The examples with Gohan are no exclusion, and when Goten actually tries to take him out, he is incapable of doing anything, and his comments validate it as such. Therefore, it's a logical fallacy when you argue that Gohan had a hard time with him, which is the case in a sparring session, but not an actual fight where Goten was left in the dust.

Vegeta was completely taken off-guard from Trunks because he under-estimated him in the first place. Being lucky enough to land one punch isn't anything significant, and you shouldn't place so much emphasis on it. There are numerous situations where enormously weaker fighters are capable of stunning or landing on punch on someone significantly stronger. This example is no exclusion and is quite a frail argument in the face or better perspectives.

Now, we have finally come to a situation where the kids are involved in an actual fight. They try their best but a easily manhandled by Android 18 in their Base Forms -Frieza > Base Saiyans explains this rather well, as does Android 18 being suppressed for the sole purposes of not killing someone of a humans battle power. They are then forced into becoming Super Saiyans but are not capable of physically over-powering her and have to resort to using a Chi blast. It was suppressed, but so was Android 18, whom managed to dodge it even though she was taken off-guard. If the kids were at the level a majority of people imply they were, they could have easily disposes of her rather quickly. But this isn't the case, therefore; they are over-rated.

 

[SIAD]

Personally I have this: SSJ Gohan (Boo)> Trunks SSJ (Boo)> Goten SSJ (Boo) >>>>>> Android # 16> Trunks SSJ (Fill / M10 / M11)> Goten SSJ (Fill / M10 / M11) >>> Android # 18.

 

[Six Trails]

Sparring is a training session where you intentionally hold back in order to hone your skills. The examples with Gohan are no exclusion, and when Goten actually tries to take him out, he is incapable of doing anything, and his comments validate it as such. Therefore, it's a logical fallacy when you argue that Gohan had a hard time with him, which is the case in a sparring session, but not an actual fight where Goten was left in the dust.

How many times can you avoid answering my question? Do you even read what I write? Or do you just continue spouting the same nonsense until the person you're arguing against gets tired of having to repeat themselves?

For the third time (really more but I'm talking about this thread specifically): There are plenty of sparring sessions where the stronger fighter doesn't struggle with the weaker fighter. Why isn't that the case for Gohan if he's so much stronger than Goten?

Vegeta was completely taken off-guard from Trunks because he under-estimated him in the first place. Being lucky enough to land one punch isn't anything significant, and you shouldn't place so much emphasis on it. There are numerous situations where enormously weaker fighters are capable of stunning or landing on punch on someone significantly stronger. This example is no exclusion and is quite a frail argument in the face or better perspectives.

I already said that the Vegeta can be explained like this in my above post. This feat isn't even necessary given Goten's performance against Gohan and Trunks being slightly stronger than Goten.

They are then forced into becoming Super Saiyans but are not capable of physically over-powering her and have to resort to using a Chi blast.

Which, again, means nothing. You are such a broken record, Tosh.

It was suppressed, but so was Android 18, whom managed to dodge it even though she was taken off-guard.

This is a silly argument. #18 sees that they're shooting Ki blasts and decides it's a good idea to stay suppressed so that any more coming her way would kill her? What is it with you and turning characters into idiots?

If the kids were at the level a majority of people imply they were, they could have easily disposes of her rather quickly.

You even said above that they weren't using their full power. Unless you're going back to trying to argue that they can't physically beat her, in which case I'll ask again that you prove the same wouldn't be true for two SS Gohans in a restricting outfit (not that I expect an actual answer).

But this isn't the case, therefore; they are over-rated.

Still underrated. Your bias against them doesn't change that.

 

[kriss-]

There is no need for me to explain the difference between sparring and fighting. Because you're questioning the validity of what I'm saying only shows that you yourself have not participated in any kind of martial arts or boxing training as I have. Further-more, the very definition of sparring itself is the practise of honing your abilities, this is not to be mistaken with an actual fight. Sparring is considered as practise for the actual fight.

Being taken off guard is not the same as giving them trouble. Especially if Vegeta did not expect Trunks to be as powerful as he turned out to be. Additionally, Goten and Gohan were sparring and they were training for the tournament, this is not the same as an actual fight and you should stop putting so much emphasis on something that makes no sense.

The regulations of the tournament dictate that if someone dies, they are disqualified. Android 18 had to suppress her abilities to the level where she wouldn't have to kill a human being, this is common sense. Therefore, when the kids took her completely off-guard with a charged up Chi attack -to a degree, it worried her, but she was still capable of getting out of the way, that speaks loads on where they are at since Chi is essentially how powerful someone actually is.

Additionally, they are physically incapable of over-powering Android 18. This infers they are far below even Semi-Perfect Cell, whom could do so quite easily.

 

[Six Trails]

I give up. You've avoided all of my points and keep repeating the same points that have either been explained or that you have failed to actually back up. Continuing this is nothing but a waste of my time.

Appeals to popularity are usually lame, but I think the fact that everyone seems to comprehend this besides you should tell you something.

 

[kriss-]

If they are incapable of over-powering Android 18 -even as Super Saiyans, and participating in an actual fight that completely deviates from a sparring session to hone their abilities, I'll go with what the fight displays. Even while Android 18 was heavily suppressed and did not notice the blast coming until the very last second, she managed to get out of the way. Thus, she ended the fight quickly because it put everybody else in danger.

The sparring sessions with Gohan can be explained for exactly what they were, while Trunks taking Vegeta off-guard is exactly that. Summarily, Goten is blown away by Gohan's battle power, the two are not close to one another.

 

[SIAD]

I give up. You've avoided all of my points and keep repeating the same points that have either been explained or that you have failed to actually back up. Continuing this is nothing but a waste of my time.

Appeals to popularity are usually lame, but I think the fact that everyone seems to comprehend this besides you should tell you something.

I think what he says all makes sense if we talk about children in the films 10 and 11 and fill with # 18, but we know that in the manga, children are not far from Gohan. I agree with you, the children used a super suppressed attack on # 18, not to hurt her and yet # 18 ran the risk of dying.