Gotenks/Goku Power Difference Debate (Spiral-Force vs Kyo)

[Spiral-Force]

This debate will cover how Gotenks compares to Goku within the Buu Arc.

For those viewing, please wait until it's over before commenting thoughts or feedback.

Opening statement:

I will be arguing with the premise of SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku being within the same tier of power, with Gotenks having a small edge. Kyo will be arguing against that and will have the opportunity to make his premise clear in his own words.

As for what to expect from myself, I will be covering each stage of Gotenks/Goku within the Buu Arc (i.e. early, middle, and late parts of their being in regard to power), taking into account lore, themes, feats, statements, etc. to give a well-rounded analysis about the topic. The manga will of course be involved in the discussion. Whether the anime or supplementary material is referenced, that is up to the individual; I see no need for a restriction and such being placed was not called for within the pre-debate planning. If my opponent requests for a restriction, then we can look into that and get that sorted out before we start forming direct arguments.

@Kyo

 

[Hector]

I like the theory of SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku being close in power, but I don't see how you can support it.

 

[Kyo]

I'll argue that SSJ3 Gotenks is significantly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Specifically, I'd argue that the form of Gotenks most likely to be in the same tier of power as SSJ3 Goku would be SSJ Gotenks prior to his RoSaT training, with SSJ Gotenks potentially having a small edge.

I don't mind the inclusion of evidence from the anime or supplementary material, although I'm pretty rusty on what those contain and will most likely not invoke them as sources myself. I believe that the manga ultimately supersedes all, but using the anime or guidebooks and so forth as supplementary material is totally fine.

 

[Goku9001]

It depends on what the anime evidence is because the anime is heavily skewed in Goku's favor. Providing the original subbed is perfectly fine but I think any filler or statements added in by Toei should be taken with a grain of salt because they are not necessarily representative of what Toriyama was thinking when he wrote the series. It should serve as supplementary evidence at best but I'd be hesitant to consider the anime's interpretation on things.

That said, this formal debate should shake things up. I'm eager to see how this all plays out.

 

[ahill1]

Guys, this is for SF and Kyouks lulz

 

[SSJ2]

Once the debate is over the rest of you can feel free to leave your opinions/comments. For now leave it to Kyo and SF.

 

[Goku9001]

I didn't insert any of my personal beliefs around the debate. I interjected by suggesting that one of the stipulations may not necessarily be fair for one of the participants which I feel is fair game.

Would you rather I comment on this after the debate concluded when the evidence has already been presented? That doesn't seem logical.

 

[Spiral-Force]

I'll argue that SSJ3 Gotenks is significantly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Specifically, I'd argue that the form of Gotenks most likely to be in the same tier of power as SSJ3 Goku would be SSJ Gotenks prior to his RoSaT training, with SSJ Gotenks potentially having a small edge.

I don't mind the inclusion of evidence from the anime or supplementary material, although I'm pretty rusty on what those contain and will most likely not invoke them as sources myself. I believe that the manga ultimately supersedes all, but using the anime or guidebooks and so forth as supplementary material is totally fine.

A suitable starting point would be to look at early Gotenks and Goku.

The narrative lays out the intent of fusion and also tells us what to expect from a Goten and Trunks fusion. What's made clear from the Metamoran method is that the outcome is a being that is way greater than the sum of its parts.

Meaning that you can expect Gotenks to have much more value than a team up of Goten and Trunks. Besides needing to get the choreography down flawlessly, along with the fusees having similar size/power, this appears to be the only other objective element of successful fusion. As pointed out by Goku, the thought process is: if it can turn a couple of weaklings into a relatively strong being, it could be a game-changer for a couple of strong guys in the context of their own situation. That's where the concept of Gotenks comes in. The boys are strong, but this union could make them a useful asset in the fight against Buu. Another prominent theme is that this plan was a gamble. Not only theoretically, but also in execution with all the ups and downs they went through to have Gotenks attempt to solve the problem at hand, which we can get into more after discussing the early stage. The idea of Gotenks developing to a point that he's a league or multiple leagues above Goku doesn't appear to be a view that corresponds to content from the source material. Goku said someone stronger than him (referring to Gotenks) will show up to fight Buu, but that's a far-cry from representing him as someone that'll be on an entirely different level.

Around this period, Goku was a proven asset against Buu, being able to fight him head-on, have people stop in their tracks to feel this new benchmark of Saiyan power that is Super Saiyan 3, and leave Buu wanting more. Practically everyone had faith in him, rightfully so, despite Goku kind of leaving them in the dark as to what he was fully capable of initially. The only thing to be cautious of was the strain that the form has on him outside of Other World, which obstructs Goku's urge to have a proper fight, instead needing him to prioritise his ki if he were to look for a finish. He was also pre-occupied with the thought of having the younger generation get things done this time.

Essentially, the Gotenks plan was to build a prodigy of prodigies, who may or may not be able to overcome Buu, but gave a sense of hope which sufficed at the time due to the scarcity of options. Goku had the strength to change things, but wanted responsibility to be shifted to those that would one day be expected to carry on as protectors in his absence.

Now that a foundation has been built, we can segway to discussing Goku and pre-RoSaT Gotenks' strength comparitively.

 

[SSJ2]

I didn't insert any of my personal beliefs around the debate. I interjected by suggesting that one of the stipulations may not necessarily be fair for one of the participants which I feel is fair game.

Would you rather I comment on this after the debate concluded when the evidence has already been presented? That doesn't seem logical.

No, I'm not taking issue with anything that you said. Historically debates were locked for only the two contestants until the debate finished, then it was opened up for discussion with the general public.

 

[Spiral-Force]

@Kyo I know you said you may take a while back when this was being planned, but could you give a timeframe of when you intend to respond?

Would prefer for this not to drag on without a major reason if possible.

 

[Kyo]

Give me until tomorrow. I didn't mean to take this long but the past week's just been bad.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Understood.

 

[Kyo]

A suitable starting point would be to look at early Gotenks and Goku.

The narrative lays out the intent of fusion and also tells us what to expect from a Goten and Trunks fusion. What's made clear from the Metamoran method is that the outcome is a being that is way greater than the sum of its parts.

Meaning that you can expect Gotenks to have much more value than a team up of Goten and Trunks. Besides needing to get the choreography down flawlessly, along with the fusees having similar size/power, this appears to be the only other objective element of successful fusion. As pointed out by Goku, the thought process is: if it can turn a couple of weaklings into a relatively strong being, it could be a game-changer for a couple of strong guys in the context of their own situation. That's where the concept of Gotenks comes in.

I have no disagreement w.r.t what the narrative is saying about fusion here.

The boys are strong, but this union could make them a useful asset in the fight against Buu. Another prominent theme is that this plan was a gamble. Not only theoretically, but also in execution with all the ups and downs they went through to have Gotenks attempt to solve the problem at hand, which we can get into more after discussing the early stage.

I'll talk about the gamble at some point, but I'll let you expand on it further from here, as it seems that you've got some points you want to make.

The idea of Gotenks developing to a point that he's a league or multiple leagues above Goku doesn't appear to be a view that corresponds to content from the source material. Goku said someone stronger than him (referring to Gotenks) will show up to fight Buu, but that's a far-cry from representing him as someone that'll be on an entirely different level.

I don't really see how you can say that it does or doesn't correspond to the source material at this point. Goku seems to be talking about fusion as-is; Gotenks's development thereafter doesn't seem to factor into the equation.

Certainly, in the early stage of the Gotenks arc, there is not yet any reason to believe that Gotenks could develop to a point where he's multiple leagues above Goku, and no one could reasonably predict that this would ever happen (if it ever happened). But this is because the narrative has not yet touched on Gotenks's potential for development. Gotenks is presented to us as someone who should be a) able to beat Fat Boo, and b) stronger than Goku (we can reasonably surmise that he's not meant to be leagues stronger), and the narrative suggests that this is the result that the boys will (or should) achieve once they master fusion -- that's it. We can talk about whether this was indeed the case later, but at this point in the narrative, that's what's being conveyed.

Around this period, Goku was a proven asset against Buu, being able to fight him head-on, have people stop in their tracks to feel this new benchmark of Saiyan power that is Super Saiyan 3, and leave Buu wanting more. Practically everyone had faith in him, rightfully so, despite Goku kind of leaving them in the dark as to what he was fully capable of initially. The only thing to be cautious of was the strain that the form has on him outside of Other World, which obstructs Goku's urge to have a proper fight, instead needing him to prioritise his ki if he were to look for a finish. He was also pre-occupied with the thought of having the younger generation get things done this time.

Essentially, the Gotenks plan was to build a prodigy of prodigies, who may or may not be able to overcome Buu, but gave a sense of hope which sufficed at the time due to the scarcity of options. Goku had the strength to change things, but wanted responsibility to be shifted to those that would one day be expected to carry on as protectors in his absence.

All true.

Now that a foundation has been built, we can segway to discussing Goku and pre-RoSaT Gotenks' strength comparitively.

For reiteration's sake: Gotenks is presented to us as someone who should be a) able to beat Fat Boo, and b) stronger than Goku, and the narrative -- between chapters 275~283 or so -- suggests that this is the result that the boys will (or should) achieve once they master fusion.

To build on that, what I'm saying is that, from my point of view, pre-RoSaT Gotenks should meet the above expectations, or at the very least, not fall tremendously short of them. I'll define "not falling tremendously short of them" as fulfilling the condition that he can beat Fat Boo at the very least, perhaps in an extremely close slobberknocker of a fight; but regardless of the exact parameters, in order for the opposing viewpoint here -- that SSJ3 Gotenks is within the same tier of power as Goku -- to work, pre-RoSaT Gotenks would unequivocally have to fall tremendously short of these expectations. Do you agree? If not, then we can hash out the details on that later, but if you do then I'd just like to get your confirmation out of the way now.


Let's look at what the narrative has established at this point in time.

• Fat Boo can beat anyone one-on-one.
  • SSJ3 Goku is possibly the exception -- the narrative damn near says outright that he is, but technically, Goku doesn't admit it yet. Regardless, he's the only one who can actually challenge Fat Boo.
• Goten and Trunks are humanity's last hope, barring Goku who has eliminated himself from the list because he's dead and shouldn't even exist in the living world.
• Goten and Trunks MUST master fusion to have any hope of beating Fat Boo.
• Goku believes that IF they master fusion, they CAN beat Fat Boo, but it's a huge gamble.
• Goku tells Piccolo that he told Fat Boo that, in 2 days, someone stronger than himself would fight Fat Boo.
• The end goal is specifically mastery of fusion while in the Super Saiyan state. To slightly reword what I wrote two points above: Goku believes that IF they master fusion AS SUPER SAIYANS, they CAN beat Fat Boo, but it's a huge gamble.

Goten and Trunks then proceed to master fusion as Super Saiyans. If there's any disagreement with the above bullet points, then I'd like to know before you get to anything else, since that'd mean we're reading into the narrative very differently.

 

[Kyo]

I've had that gestating in my reply box for a bit. I was a tad unwell for a few days and stubbornly dragged myself to the gym in that state, and the last week of this sprint at work has been a motherfucker on top of that. I'll have some breathing room starting next week once I get all this shit done.

 

[Spiral-Force]

I'll talk about the gamble at some point, but I'll let you expand on it further from here, as it seems that you've got some points you want to make.

I'll get into it later within this post, when of relevance, to keep things organised.

I don't really see how you can say that it does or doesn't correspond to the source material at this point. Goku seems to be talking about fusion as-is; Gotenks's development thereafter doesn't seem to factor into the equation.

Certainly, in the early stage of the Gotenks arc, there is not yet any reason to believe that Gotenks could develop to a point where he's multiple leagues above Goku, and no one could reasonably predict that this would ever happen (if it ever happened). But this is because the narrative has not yet touched on Gotenks's potential for development. Gotenks is presented to us as someone who should be a) able to beat Fat Boo, and b) stronger than Goku (we can reasonably surmise that he's not meant to be leagues stronger), and the narrative suggests that this is the result that the boys will (or should) achieve once they master fusion -- that's it. We can talk about whether this was indeed the case later, but at this point in the narrative, that's what's being conveyed.

For reiteration's sake: Gotenks is presented to us as someone who should be a) able to beat Fat Boo, and b) stronger than Goku, and the narrative -- between chapters 275~283 or so -- suggests that this is the result that the boys will (or should) achieve once they master fusion.

To build on that, what I'm saying is that, from my point of view, pre-RoSaT Gotenks should meet the above expectations, or at the very least, not fall tremendously short of them. I'll define "not falling tremendously short of them" as fulfilling the condition that he can beat Fat Boo at the very least, perhaps in an extremely close slobberknocker of a fight; but regardless of the exact parameters, in order for the opposing viewpoint here -- that SSJ3 Gotenks is within the same tier of power as Goku -- to work, pre-RoSaT Gotenks would unequivocally have to fall tremendously short of these expectations. Do you agree? If not, then we can hash out the details on that later, but if you do then I'd just like to get your confirmation out of the way now.

The purpose was to point out the groundwork that the narrative was operating under, which holds relevance throughout Gotenks' journey.

While Gotenks had targets set (i.e. mastering fusion and being the one to beat Fat Buu), the story solidified that he was a work in progress. Characters in association with him (namely Goku and Piccolo) had to adapt their thinking, and in some ways, re-evaluate their perspective as things played out, such as when Piccolo found out that the boys figured out a way to go Super Saiyan after fusing, which was treated as not being possible before.

There were a couple of instances where Goku spoke as if Gotenks had it in the bag as long as he masters fusion, but these moments of optimism presented itself when the intent was to lift people's spirits (i.e. getting the boys motivated to commit to learning fusion or when he was comforting his sobbing wife who was worried that her son would get killed). This shouldn't distract you from the fact that he very much acknowledges that there was no guarantee that things would work out.

The fact that a training phase had to occur at all should tell us that the boys left a lot to be desired. Leading up to that, Piccolo was critical of Gotenks' capabilities, and didn't outline or confirm any accomplishments in relation to how his power compares to Buu. So I'd argue that Gotenks was vastly behind schedule at this stage.

Let's look at what the narrative has established at this point in time.

• Fat Boo can beat anyone one-on-one.
  • SSJ3 Goku is possibly the exception -- the narrative damn near says outright that he is, but technically, Goku doesn't admit it yet. Regardless, he's the only one who can actually challenge Fat Boo.
• Goten and Trunks are humanity's last hope, barring Goku who has eliminated himself from the list because he's dead and shouldn't even exist in the living world.
• Goten and Trunks MUST master fusion to have any hope of beating Fat Boo.
• Goku believes that IF they master fusion, they CAN beat Fat Boo, but it's a huge gamble.
• Goku tells Piccolo that he told Fat Boo that, in 2 days, someone stronger than himself would fight Fat Boo.
• The end goal is specifically mastery of fusion while in the Super Saiyan state. To slightly reword what I wrote two points above: Goku believes that IF they master fusion AS SUPER SAIYANS, they CAN beat Fat Boo, but it's a huge gamble.

Goten and Trunks then proceed to master fusion as Super Saiyans. If there's any disagreement with the above bullet points, then I'd like to know before you get to anything else, since that'd mean we're reading into the narrative very differently.

It seems that where we differ is in our characterisation of the finer details, particularly the boundaries of the gamble. Isolating this element to only SSJ Gotenks is quite narrow because it's served to us as being applicable to the situation as a whole, and we see this manifest itself even after he breaks the Super Saiyan wall.

 

[Kyo]

While Gotenks had targets set (i.e. mastering fusion and being the one to beat Fat Buu), the story solidified that he was a work in progress. Characters in association with him (namely Goku and Piccolo) had to adapt their thinking, and in some ways, re-evaluate their perspective as things played out, such as when Piccolo found out that the boys figured out a way to go Super Saiyan after fusing, which was treated as not being possible before.

There were a couple of instances where Goku spoke as if Gotenks had it in the bag as long as he masters fusion, but these moments of optimism presented itself when the intent was to lift people's spirits (i.e. getting the boys motivated to commit to learning fusion or when he was comforting his sobbing wife who was worried that her son would get killed). This shouldn't distract you from the fact that he very much acknowledges that there was no guarantee that things would work out.

There are a number of reasons that the plan was considered a gamble, chiefly the following:



They're on a timer and Boo is destroying the planet while they wait.

The fact that a training phase had to occur at all should tell us that the boys left a lot to be desired.

Well, this goes past the early stage now. This is after Super Boo, the Boo who is greater than the previous incarnation in every way as per Piccolo's words, is born and makes his way up to the lookout. The narrative has evolved beyond what was established to us during the early stage.

Leading up to that, Piccolo was critical of Gotenks' capabilities, and didn't outline or confirm any accomplishments in relation to how his power compares to Buu.

Was he critical of Gotenks? He's critical of his stupidity, yes, and he's pretty cautious otherwise. He never says he can beat Boo outright but he never says he can't either.

Piccolo's intent is to have Gotenks train for a day and then fight Boo the following day. Gotenks masters fusion the day before he's supposed to fight Boo and then Piccolo sends the boys to bed after they waste their fusion. When Gotenks goes after Boo after the first successful SSJ fusion attempt, Piccolo's primarily concerned with the fact that their fusion is about to run out, not that they aren't strong enough. I suppose the timer would be the most pertinent factor at hand regardless of how strong Gotenks was, but still -- once that's said and done, Piccolo gives them a few hours of rest before the big fight. There's not much more that can be accomplished in one day.

So I'd argue that Gotenks was vastly behind schedule at this stage.

Here is Herms's translation of this line:

“Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

The Viz wording of "yet" can imply that fusion hasn't been enough all along. This implication is absent in the above line. Something to consider.

Consider all of my points in the section above; wouldn't there be a greater sense of urgency if Gotenks had been behind schedule the entire time? Certainly Piccolo would've tossed the boys into the RoSaT well before this point if he had been, I'd argue, because again, there's not much more that they could accomplish in one day before their planned fight with Boo.

Isolating this element to only SSJ Gotenks is quite narrow because it's served to us as being applicable to the situation as a whole, and we see this manifest itself even after he breaks the Super Saiyan wall.

Thematically, yes. But the characters can't be speaking completely nebulously; their decision-making is still primarily influenced by the concrete situation that's in front of them right now. When Goku presents the plan to fuse, the end goal is to beat Fat Boo with it in two days' time without the use of the RoSaT.

 

[Spiral-Force]

There are a number of reasons that the plan was considered a gamble, chiefly the following:

View attachment 2382

They're on a timer and Boo is destroying the planet while they wait.

When taking into consideration what transpired next, there's more to the gamble than just those factors. It's also worth noting that while environmental destruction was a concern, the time that Babidi gave them (5 days) was multiple days more than the amount of time Goku envisioned for the kids learning fusion (about 2 days or so). Buu's killing spree was influenced and monitored by Babidi - by the time he was killed, Buu still commited violent acts at times, but was also awaiting a potential fight with a strong guy again. He even made a house for himself in the meantime.

Goku classing things as a gamble was delivered in a broad, all-encompassing type of way. And before Gotenks came into being, the most they could go off of is that he'd be better than the collective might of Goten and Trunks; however, to what extent was unknown - so their planning was partially faith-based, making this rather gamble-esque, aligning with how the storyline characterises the circumstance they were in.

Well, this goes past the early stage now. This is after Super Boo, the Boo who is greater than the previous incarnation in every way as per Piccolo's words, is born and makes his way up to the lookout. The narrative has evolved beyond what was established to us during the early stage.



Was he critical of Gotenks? He's critical of his stupidity, yes, and he's pretty cautious otherwise. He never says he can beat Boo outright but he never says he can't either.

Well naturally we're gradually moving past the earlier stage. Each stage is quite symbiotic to each other, but things have been tidy enough so far.

When someone is in need of training, and their is skepticism over their physical abilities, this doesn't sound like someone that reached the goals that were set out for them. That person is Gotenks, with Piccolo making these exact assessments.

Piccolo didn't attribute his lack of development to the change of circumstance, it appeared to be a scolding in which the emphasis was placed on Gotenks.

Piccolo's intent is to have Gotenks train for a day and then fight Boo the following day. Gotenks masters fusion the day before he's supposed to fight Boo and then Piccolo sends the boys to bed after they waste their fusion. When Gotenks goes after Boo after the first successful SSJ fusion attempt, Piccolo's primarily concerned with the fact that their fusion is about to run out, not that they aren't strong enough. I suppose the timer would be the most pertinent factor at hand regardless of how strong Gotenks was, but still -- once that's said and done, Piccolo gives them a few hours of rest before the big fight. There's not much more that can be accomplished in one day.

Piccolo wanted to carry out a thorough inspection of Gotenks' abilities, but this didn't take place due to Gotenks' getting too excited and throwing caution to the wind. Piccolo could barely get a word in before Gotenks took off. There was nothing conclusive about this scene, so it should be understandable to not buy into the one-man hype train here.

Here is Herms's translation of this line:

“Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

The Viz wording of "yet" can imply that fusion hasn't been enough all along. This implication is absent in the above line. Something to consider.

Both translations practically fall into the bracket of Gotenks being inadequate. Given that the change in variable (Fat Buu to Super Buu) wasn't credited as the reason for his inadequacy, there's room for the interpretation that Gotenks was simply not in the vicinity of Buu, period.

It should also be mentioned that Super Buu's superiority over Fat Buu was expressed in a very mundane fashion; he was said to be stronger, with a body more suitable for battle. This description only confirms that he has the edge over his previous self. Nothing crazy or jaw-dropping.

Consider all of my points in the section above; wouldn't there be a greater sense of urgency if Gotenks had been behind schedule the entire time? Certainly Piccolo would've tossed the boys into the RoSaT well before this point if he had been, I'd argue, because again, there's not much more that they could accomplish in one day before their planned fight with Boo.

There were multiple things happening simultaneously in a small window of time. Piccolo was focused on observation; eyeing how Buu's behavioural patterns are affected by Hercule, who Buu generally showed his lighter side around. Given how stressful the situation was, this gave Piccolo some time to spectate and be a bit more composed. Metaphorically, think of it like the slow/linear moment of a rollercoaster, prior to the more extreme moment, in which Super Buu came into being and abruptly showed up to where everyone was.

So there was essentially a 180 in terms of the vibe. One that Piccolo or anyone else couldn't have seen coming.

Also, kids will be kids. Goten and Trunks happen to be on the more stubborn side as well.

Thematically, yes. But the characters can't be speaking completely nebulously; their decision-making is still primarily influenced by the concrete situation that's in front of them right now. When Goku presents the plan to fuse, the end goal is to beat Fat Boo with it in two days' time without the use of the RoSaT.

The shift in events gives the situation more nuance.

SSJ Gotenks vs Fat Buu was supposed to be the ultimate fight that would conclude the storyline, whether for better or worse. Since it didn't happen, SSJ Gotenks remained unproven and untested in terms of how he stacks up as an asset against Buu. Given this, and his power mostly being thought of in an idealistic sense within the plot, skepticism is absolutely warranted here.

Fat Buu was depicted as a being that surpassed all imagination. If SSJ Gotenks was stronger, surely that would have been expressed in an undeniable manner? The boys were analysed down to the finger, but this milestone was swept under the rug? Don't believe it.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Going with @Kyo with this. Even though, I highly disagree with Pre Rosat Gotenks being as strong or any stronger than SSJ3 Goku, it'd be reckless for me to support Spiral Force if he is stupid enough to think that things have to keep civil in an action show when everyone is fighting.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

This would be my last comment in this section, I wouldn't be responding anything even if anyone quote me.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Not surprised by the lack of professionalism from the above user. Saltiness and emotion has no place in a debate environment. Move along.