Gotenks/Goku Power Difference Debate (Spiral-Force vs Kyo)

[Kyo]

When taking into consideration what transpired next, there's more to the gamble than just those factors.

I agree 100%, but I would argue that those were the main ones. They were the ones made explicit.

It's also worth noting that while environmental destruction was a concern, the time that Babidi gave them (5 days) was multiple days more than the amount of time Goku envisioned for the kids learning fusion (about 2 days or so). Buu's killing spree was influenced and monitored by Babidi - by the time he was killed, Buu still commited violent acts at times, but was also awaiting a potential fight with a strong guy again. He even made a house for himself in the meantime.

Goku classing things as a gamble was delivered in a broad, all-encompassing type of way. And before Gotenks came into being, the most they could go off of is that he'd be better than the collective might of Goten and Trunks; however, to what extent was unknown - so their planning was partially faith-based, making this rather gamble-esque, aligning with how the storyline characterises the circumstance they were in.

I agree that Goku is putting a lot of (relatively blind) faith in the kids, but a couple of things that are important to note are that Goku is familar with the kind of boost that fusion provides (he's never seen anyone on his level perform it, but he knows how "unbeatable" it made the Metamorans -- also, just to make one thing clear given how debates like this tend to go, I'm not suggesting there's any equation for fusion, or if there were, that Goku would be mentally factoring it in), and that if Goku's faith turned out to be misplaced, then this would be made clear to the reader, if not explicit.

Piccolo wanted to carry out a thorough inspection of Gotenks' abilities, but this didn't take place due to Gotenks' getting too excited and throwing caution to the wind. Piccolo could barely get a word in before Gotenks took off. There was nothing conclusive about this scene, so it should be understandable to not buy into the one-man hype train here.

How do you know how thorough Piccolo wanted his inspection needed to be? In the Viz manga, he just says "show me what you can do" and Gotenks flies off in response to show off his speed. Herms translates Piccolo's line as "how about your movement?...Show me a little," and so Gotenks's response to fly around as a means to show off his speed makes sense. Then, in both versions, Gotenks tells Piccolo that the tests are done and runs off.

Piccolo could barely get a word in

To Gotenks, yes, but not to the proverbial audience. He expresses his frustration that Gotenks is flying off with less than a minute of fused time left. Gotenks was indeed being frustrating by deciding everything for himself, but I also don't see why I should believe Piccolo needed any more testing than this. It's worth keeping in mind that Dragon Ball Z's battle system is very simple: the faster and stronger fighter wins a straight fight every time. Piccolo didn't express any misgivings with the amount of ki Gotenks had (his knees certainly don't buckle in its presence or anything, but if it fell woefully short of Fat Boo's -- and it would have, if that's how he actually stacked up -- then a statement of "your ki is absolutely incredible, but how about [...]" would be pretty meaningless), and after questioning his movement, Gotenks responds with a speed feat beyond what anyone else in the series had shown thus far (barring literal teleportation).

Both translations practically fall into the bracket of Gotenks being inadequate. Given that the change in variable (Fat Buu to Super Buu) wasn't credited as the reason for his inadequacy, there's room for the interpretation that Gotenks was simply not in the vicinity of Buu, period.

Sort of in-line with what I said just above, I don't see why that wouldn't have been expressed earlier then. If he's not even close, then it should just be obvious to anyone just looking at him (to be clear, Piccolo is "anyone" -- the others present are dumdums). It was obvious in Vegeta's case, after all. And of course it was obvious in Base Gotenks's case. It was not obvious in Goku's case. Hmm.

It should also be mentioned that Super Buu's superiority over Fat Buu was expressed in a very mundane fashion; he was said to be stronger, with a body more suitable for battle. This description only confirms that he has the edge over his previous self. Nothing crazy or jaw-dropping.

Piccolo actually says that everything about him is greater than before. In Dragon Ball speak, I always take this to mean it's a big deal, but that's subjective. Physical language is also just as important if you wanna gauge how the characters feel about the events in front of them:




It's not very mundane at all.

There were multiple things happening simultaneously in a small window of time. Piccolo was focused on observation; eyeing how Buu's behavioural patterns are affected by Hercule, who Buu generally showed his lighter side around. Given how stressful the situation was, this gave Piccolo some time to spectate and be a bit more composed. Metaphorically, think of it like the slow/linear moment of a rollercoaster, prior to the more extreme moment, in which Super Buu came into being and abruptly showed up to where everyone was.

So there was essentially a 180 in terms of the vibe. One that Piccolo or anyone else couldn't have seen coming.

Yes, the situation gave Piccolo time to breathe, but we're talking about the Earth's last hope here. If Gotenks doesn't have even a remote chance of standing up to Boo, then the situation is urgent. Goku told Piccolo not to use the RoSaT because Goten and Trunks might need it in the future. In the aforementioned urgent situation, the future is now.

Also, kids will be kids. Goten and Trunks happen to be on the more stubborn side as well.

damn brats

The shift in events gives the situation more nuance.

SSJ Gotenks vs Fat Buu was supposed to be the ultimate fight that would conclude the storyline, whether for better or worse. Since it didn't happen, SSJ Gotenks remained unproven and untested in terms of how he stacks up as an asset against Buu. Given this, and his power mostly being thought of in an idealistic sense within the plot, skepticism is absolutely warranted here.

agreed

Fat Buu was depicted as a being that surpassed all imagination. If SSJ Gotenks was stronger, surely that would have been expressed in an undeniable manner? The boys were analysed down to the finger, but this milestone was swept under the rug? Don't believe it.

If he was weaker, then surely that would have been expressed in an undeniable manner? (One might argue that the Piccolo line on the lookout is exactly that, but it's not direct because at the end of the day it's about Super Boo.) That is the issue with this part of the series: this is too pivotal a piece of information to withhold regardless of which end of the spectrum Gotenks is actually on.

But I propose that it is more important for the story to explicitly deny Gotenks's prowess (if he is too weak) than it is to explicitly state it (if he is strong enough, or close to it), given the expectations that were set up previously. I'm not saying that the reader can't be skeptical of those expectations in the absence of a direct contradiction, but that there's less need to explicitly reinforce that the expected result occurred vs that things have gone incredibly off script (Super Boo is when we go off script, imo).


I have a couple of other points to bring up later, although they're circumstantial evidence at best.

 

[Kyo]

Going with @Kyo with this. Even though, I highly disagree with Pre Rosat Gotenks being as strong or any stronger than SSJ3 Goku, it'd be reckless for me to support Spiral Force if he is stupid enough to think that things have to keep civil in an action show when everyone is fighting.

Spoiler

 

[Spiral-Force]

I agree 100%, but I would argue that those were the main ones. They were the ones made explicit.



I agree that Goku is putting a lot of (relatively blind) faith in the kids, but a couple of things that are important to note are that Goku is familar with the kind of boost that fusion provides (he's never seen anyone on his level perform it, but he knows how "unbeatable" it made the Metamorans -- also, just to make one thing clear given how debates like this tend to go, I'm not suggesting there's any equation for fusion, or if there were, that Goku would be mentally factoring it in), and that if Goku's faith turned out to be misplaced, then this would be made clear to the reader, if not explicit.

When analysing the plot in a way that leaves no stone unturned, it seems unnecessary to propose such a categorisation. For instance, moments later Goku sought to offset Piccolo's doomsday concerns by reminding him that they have the Dragon Balls if it comes to extremes. As soon as Buu became free of anyone's command, the ball was in SSJ Gotenks' court in the sense that it was on him to show he could get things done, but with the fight not materializing, more was needed from him in a practical sense to move away from unfulfilled ideals; I'd argue that Piccolo requiring the boys to improve past their initial level delivers that message clearly (note: since we've both given our perspectives on that statement, we don't have to tread over that again unless you have an additional angle to bring to it)

Given that the Metamorans were wimps, with no attempt within the storyline to differentiate levels between them individually, of course a process [fusion] that enables a couple of small-fry to become quite formidable (relatively speaking) will give off the impression that they can't be beaten by their unfused peers. If you wanted to bring in a new way of perceiving fusion power to this conversation, then this reasoning doesn't look like it has any inherent tangibility to your aim.

How do you know how thorough Piccolo wanted his inspection needed to be? In the Viz manga, he just says "show me what you can do" and Gotenks flies off in response to show off his speed. Herms translates Piccolo's line as "how about your movement?...Show me a little," and so Gotenks's response to fly around as a means to show off his speed makes sense. Then, in both versions, Gotenks tells Piccolo that the tests are done and runs off.



To Gotenks, yes, but not to the proverbial audience. He expresses his frustration that Gotenks is flying off with less than a minute of fused time left. Gotenks was indeed being frustrating by deciding everything for himself, but I also don't see why I should believe Piccolo needed any more testing than this. It's worth keeping in mind that Dragon Ball Z's battle system is very simple: the faster and stronger fighter wins a straight fight every time. Piccolo didn't express any misgivings with the amount of ki Gotenks had (his knees certainly don't buckle in its presence or anything, but if it fell woefully short of Fat Boo's -- and it would have, if that's how he actually stacked up -- then a statement of "your ki is absolutely incredible, but how about [...]" would be pretty meaningless), and after questioning his movement, Gotenks responds with a speed feat beyond what anyone else in the series had shown thus far (barring literal teleportation).



Sort of in-line with what I said just above, I don't see why that wouldn't have been expressed earlier then. If he's not even close, then it should just be obvious to anyone just looking at him (to be clear, Piccolo is "anyone" -- the others present are dumdums). It was obvious in Vegeta's case, after all. And of course it was obvious in Base Gotenks's case. It was not obvious in Goku's case. Hmm.

The simplicity of the battle system is precisely why Gotenks should raise a viewer's eyebrow in skepticism in this situation. This can be effectively illustrated by analysing the most important factors of their interaction, which are:

- Piccolo needing a demonstration
- Gotenks' confidence

Piccolo requiring some form of confirmation for Gotenks abilities deviates from the typical recurring theme of a character's power-up speaking for itself. Two things can be true at the same time - the power-up being incredible but still falling short of what was needed. Vague praise can't really be gauged.

When looking at both factors collectively, it appears that Piccolo isn't convinced that Gotenks power-up is enough, but wants to investigate further to see if Gotenks' confidence has any merit (note: Gotenks' confidence having an affect on Piccolo is a theme that we see in the Super Buu fight as well, which can be talked about later).

How do we know that others cannot recreate that speed feat? Nothing was said to co-sign how monumentally you view it. All that was highlighted is that it was a waste of energy...

It could be argued that Goku keeping up with Fat Buu and vice versa is more impressive.

Piccolo didn't express any acknowledgement over Gotenks' judgement of that rushed 'test'. He also didn't seem the slightest bit relieved or happy within the scene; he looked very serious and concerned.

Piccolo actually says that everything about him is greater than before. In Dragon Ball speak, I always take this to mean it's a big deal, but that's subjective. Physical language is also just as important if you wanna gauge how the characters feel about the events in front of them:

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It's not very mundane at all.



Yes, the situation gave Piccolo time to breathe, but we're talking about the Earth's last hope here. If Gotenks doesn't have even a remote chance of standing up to Boo, then the situation is urgent. Goku told Piccolo not to use the RoSaT because Goten and Trunks might need it in the future. In the aforementioned urgent situation, the future is now.

As you said previously, power and speed is essentially what's important. So being better at 'everything' doesn't sound particularly grand in this case, nor can it be used as a specific formula for a power differential (not saying you'd go down that lane, but just putting it out there)

It should also be taken into account that this -- as far as Piccolo and the others knew -- diversified the threat that Buu posed - i.e. he was already a monster, but he can essentially eat himself and grow stronger too? Yet another thing to look out for. A horrible revelation indeed.

If he was weaker, then surely that would have been expressed in an undeniable manner? (One might argue that the Piccolo line on the lookout is exactly that, but it's not direct because at the end of the day it's about Super Boo.) That is the issue with this part of the series: this is too pivotal a piece of information to withhold regardless of which end of the spectrum Gotenks is actually on.

But I propose that it is more important for the story to explicitly deny Gotenks's prowess (if he is too weak) than it is to explicitly state it (if he is strong enough, or close to it), given the expectations that were set up previously. I'm not saying that the reader can't be skeptical of those expectations in the absence of a direct contradiction, but that there's less need to explicitly reinforce that the expected result occurred vs that things have gone incredibly off script (Super Boo is when we go off script, imo).

This area of the plot isn't exactly complex. We already knew that Buu was the pinnacle when Goku dipped. We also knew that the gang wanted fusion to save the day as soon as that concept began being worked on. All eyes were on Gotenks to prove his worth. At this point, besides being able to perform fusion, he didn't tick off any other targets practically speaking.

This isn't a core point, but I'd like to mention that Dragon Ball has a tendency to lean into a protagonist having to face insane obstacles. A character making a miraculous comeback or having that ONE thing that turns the tables (which can be said to be Super Saiyan 3 in this circumstance) is something that the audience ought to be well-aware of this deep into the story.

I have a couple of other points to bring up later, although they're circumstantial evidence at best.

Will respond accordingly.

 

[Kyo]

When analysing the plot in a way that leaves no stone unturned, it seems unnecessary to propose such a categorisation. For instance, moments later Goku sought to offset Piccolo's doomsday concerns by reminding him that they have the Dragon Balls if it comes to extremes. As soon as Buu became free of anyone's command, the ball was in SSJ Gotenks' court in the sense that it was on him to show he could get things done, but with the fight not materializing, more was needed from him in a practical sense to move away from unfulfilled ideals; I'd argue that Piccolo requiring the boys to improve past their initial level delivers that message clearly (note: since we've both given our perspectives on that statement, we don't have to tread over that again unless you have an additional angle to bring to it)

I don't really have anything to add to this that I haven't already said.

Given that the Metamorans were wimps, with no attempt within the storyline to differentiate levels between them individually, of course a process [fusion] that enables a couple of small-fry to become quite formidable (relatively speaking) will give off the impression that they can't be beaten by their unfused peers. If you wanted to bring in a new way of perceiving fusion power to this conversation, then this reasoning doesn't look like it has any inherent tangibility to your aim.

"relatively speaking" being the operative phrase there
Fusion is insane (in both forms that are presented to us in this arc) but a consistent theme is that the strength of the fusees still matters (this is reiterated several times throughout the entire Gotenks-/Gohan-Boo portion of the story). While it may be within the realm of possibility for Goten and Trunks to be too weak for the job given to them, it would probably be a lot clearer if they were blatantly too weak.

The simplicity of the battle system is precisely why Gotenks should raise a viewer's eyebrow in skepticism in this situation. This can be effectively illustrated by analysing the most important factors of their interaction, which are:

- Piccolo needing a demonstration

Characters have effectively required a "demonstration" in the past, even when faced with a ki that more than met any expectation they may have had in their mind. Piccolo tells Gotenks his ki is indeed incredible, but he'd like to see his movements. Piccolo tells Freeza that he may be more powerful (having sensed only his ki), but that he'd never catch up in speed. Freeza's demonstration proved him wrong, although it may not have (unless Piccolo was just a dumbass in humoring such a possibility, but there is precedent for fighters being more or less nimble than their ki might otherwise indicate). Asking for a demonstration of Gotenks's movement would be fair regardless.

Piccolo requiring some form of confirmation for Gotenks abilities deviates from the typical recurring theme of a character's power-up speaking for itself. Two things can be true at the same time - the power-up being incredible but still falling short of what was needed. Vague praise can't really be gauged.

It is typical, but not rigid. Future Trunks tested Goku, for example; Goku's power spoke for itself to the other guys, but not to him.

When looking at both factors collectively, it appears that Piccolo isn't convinced that Gotenks power-up is enough, but wants to investigate further to see if Gotenks' confidence has any merit

I agree that he's not convinced (yet) that the power-up is enough, but we have different interpretations for what that means. If Gotenks is overall significantly weaker than Fat Boo, which he'd have to be in order for SSJ3 Gotenks ≈ SSJ3 Goku to hold, then his ki would be significantly lower than Fat Boo's. Piccolo knows this, but wants to see what Gotenks can do just in case that makes any difference, or so your argument goes.

By the Herms translation, Piccolo unambiguously wants to see Gotenks's movement. Piccolo explicitly calls one thing into question and it's not Gotenks's potential for destructive force.

(note: Gotenks' confidence having an affect on Piccolo is a theme that we see in the Super Buu fight as well, which can be talked about later).

Sure, I'd like to talk about it. I think, with the contents of this post, I've said everything I could say about everything else thus far.

How do we know that others cannot recreate that speed feat? Nothing was said to co-sign how monumentally you view it. All that was highlighted is that it was a waste of energy...

We don't know that others can't, just that they didn't. Gotenks was the first to do it in response to having his abilities questioned.

It could be argued that Goku keeping up with Fat Buu and vice versa is more impressive.

It could be. I kind of see it differently. Gotenks's speed feat doesn't directly stack him up against Boo, so it's less impressive in that sense. It's more like Cell going "I can destroy the solar system." That didn't really tell us anything about his standing next to Gohan, but the sheer scale was unheard of until that point. But I'm going off track.

Piccolo didn't express any acknowledgement over Gotenks' judgement of that rushed 'test'. He also didn't seem the slightest bit relieved or happy within the scene; he looked very serious and concerned.

Well, again, his concern was due to the fact that the fusion was about to run out. After that, he just sent the kids to bed.
On this point, I don't have much else to say in addition to what I've already posted, so I'll leave it there unless you have anything else.

As you said previously, power and speed is essentially what's important. So being better at 'everything' doesn't sound particularly grand in this case, nor can it be used as a specific formula for a power differential (not saying you'd go down that lane, but just putting it out there)

Like I said, it's a bit subjective, but phrasing it like "he's better at everything" instead of "he's stronger" is more impactful, considering that both statements get the same objective information across (given the simple battle system), but one sounds more dramatic on paper. Not worth dwelling on too much though.

It should also be taken into account that this -- as far as Piccolo and the others knew -- diversified the threat that Buu posed - i.e. he was already a monster, but he can essentially eat himself and grow stronger too? Yet another thing to look out for. A horrible revelation indeed.

True.

This isn't a core point, but I'd like to mention that Dragon Ball has a tendency to lean into a protagonist having to face insane obstacles. A character making a miraculous comeback or having that ONE thing that turns the tables (which can be said to be Super Saiyan 3 in this circumstance) is something that the audience ought to be well-aware of this deep into the story.

True. It could be said that the birth of the far stronger Super Boo was Gotenks's insane obstacle though. In fact, wouldn't the story flow a little better that way? It does to me at least -- it seems like he'll be good enough to get the job done, but then a new challenger appears...

Will respond accordingly.

Goku was able to sense Gotenks's ki -- specifically, the kids' fused ki -- from the Kaioshin realm. It was a shock to Kibito that he could feel SSJ3 Goku's ki from the Kaioshin realm.
We can surmise that there's a difference between feeling someone's ki unprompted and seeking out someone's ki intentionally (well, this difference definitely exists in general, but we're surmising in the case of whether it makes a difference when the Kaioshin realm is involved), and the best evidence for this case might be Kid Boo finding the non-SSJ3s on Kaioshin's realm and teleporting to them, though Kid Boo use's Kaioshin's kai kai, which does not require a ki signature lock-on like shunkan ido does. But this is all pretty vague, and I don't think this point is at all necessary to prove my stance, but it tends to come up so I wanted to note it here.


I forgot my other point. I should've written it down.

 

[Spiral-Force]

"relatively speaking" being the operative phrase there
Fusion is insane (in both forms that are presented to us in this arc) but a consistent theme is that the strength of the fusees still matters (this is reiterated several times throughout the entire Gotenks-/Gohan-Boo portion of the story). While it may be within the realm of possibility for Goten and Trunks to be too weak for the job given to them, it would probably be a lot clearer if they were blatantly too weak.

Goku's story of fusion tells us that it's a powerful technique, but it wasn't clear how it would translate for higher level beings who intend to have it surpass an exact level. Still worth a shot to him though.

Targeting the degree of clarity over Gotenks' inability enters the territory of reader preference. But does it need to go there?

Pre-RoSaT Gotenks' history:

- Learned fusion, but got beat up by Buu in their first fight
- Performed Super Saiyan fusion, but his abilities were in need of examination

Outcome: fusion produced a strong warrior generally speaking (the bare minimum of the technique), but what he brought to the table was questioned, which would be needless if he lived up to the hype.

The principle of Occam's razor should be considered when carving out a perspective within argumentation. Whether deliberately or not, it appears that you haven't embraced it during this talking point.

Characters have effectively required a "demonstration" in the past, even when faced with a ki that more than met any expectation they may have had in their mind. Piccolo tells Gotenks his ki is indeed incredible, but he'd like to see his movements. Piccolo tells Freeza that he may be more powerful (having sensed only his ki), but that he'd never catch up in speed. Freeza's demonstration proved him wrong, although it may not have (unless Piccolo was just a dumbass in humoring such a possibility, but there is precedent for fighters being more or less nimble than their ki might otherwise indicate). Asking for a demonstration of Gotenks's movement would be fair regardless.


It is typical, but not rigid. Future Trunks tested Goku, for example; Goku's power spoke for itself to the other guys, but not to him.

Needing a presentation to be convinced of a fighter's strength happens once in a while, but that 'oh snap' moment we often see after a big boost seems to be the norm, like when Vegeta went Oozaru or when Kid Gohan went Super Saiyan 2.

While both of your references include a demonstrative aspect, they don't quite connect:

3rd Form Frieza proved that Piccolo's power or speed didn't mean squat to him. In testing terms, Frieza passed with flying colours. Can't say the same for Gotenks.

Future Trunks was satisfied with what Goku did, but it's indicated that they were both holding back. It appears that ki control is what stood out in the exchange.

I agree that he's not convinced (yet) that the power-up is enough, but we have different interpretations for what that means. If Gotenks is overall significantly weaker than Fat Boo, which he'd have to be in order for SSJ3 Gotenks ≈ SSJ3 Goku to hold, then his ki would be significantly lower than Fat Boo's. Piccolo knows this, but wants to see what Gotenks can do just in case that makes any difference, or so your argument goes.

By the Herms translation, Piccolo unambiguously wants to see Gotenks's movement. Piccolo explicitly calls one thing into question and it's not Gotenks's potential for destructive force.

The most effective way to describe it is that Piccolo was in need of convincing, because the power up alone wasn't cutting it.

As far as the movement point, there are two things to consider:
- Speed tends to correlate to the power that a being possesses, given the simple nature of the battle system that you also acknowledge. (Occasionally there are characters like Burter who are known particularly for speed, but that doesn't apply here) Therefore, Gotenks' movement being assessed should give further insight into his level as a whole.

- It could also be the case that Piccolo would have further questioning for Gotenks, but wanted to do things one at a time.

Sure, I'd like to talk about it. I think, with the contents of this post, I've said everything I could say about everything else thus far.

Pretty straightforward.

- Piccolo is concerned with the boys not fusing as SSJs against Super Buu.
- Gotenks brags about himself
- Piccolo thinks Base Gotenks might be on to something
- Base Gotenks' power ends up being inconsequential in execution
- Piccolo makes a 180 on what he thought and says they're doomed

SSJ Gotenks post-RoSaT inspired a bit of hope, but didn't get anything done in the long run and was treated as being screwed until he pulled SSJ3 out of his sleeve.

We don't know that others can't, just that they didn't. Gotenks was the first to do it in response to having his abilities questioned.


It could be. I kind of see it differently. Gotenks's speed feat doesn't directly stack him up against Boo, so it's less impressive in that sense. It's more like Cell going "I can destroy the solar system." That didn't really tell us anything about his standing next to Gohan, but the sheer scale was unheard of until that point. But I'm going off track.

Well, would you expect others to do the same? It's just an odd display, especially unprompted. It speaks towards Gotenks' immaturity. Deriving anything else from it seems like a stretch when purely going by the source.

Cell's words give the audience perspective into just how strong the top tier of the Cell Arc is. There's plenty of dialogue outside of that for us to know where Cell thinks he stands in comparison to Gohan.

Well, again, his concern was due to the fact that the fusion was about to run out. After that, he just sent the kids to bed.
On this point, I don't have much else to say in addition to what I've already posted, so I'll leave it there unless you have anything else.

Time is paramount no matter where Gotenks falls in his power range; Piccolo's discontinued power review makes the situation more nuanced than just being about that.

If there were ever a time for something to be on panel, it'd be to solidify where Gotenks stands before going off to fight. Had things progressed without the Super Buu phenomena, it'd be back to square one with Piccolo checking Gotenks out again after the boys get up, in which I'd argue that his statement about them needing to train would have come in that moment.

Like I said, it's a bit subjective, but phrasing it like "he's better at everything" instead of "he's stronger" is more impactful, considering that both statements get the same objective information across (given the simple battle system), but one sounds more dramatic on paper. Not worth dwelling on too much though.

We've covered this in depth. I'd just add that writers in particular are quite cognizant of the ability to use language in a myriad of ways to avoid being too repetitive even when the overarching point being conveyed isn't new.

True. It could be said that the birth of the far stronger Super Boo was Gotenks's insane obstacle though. In fact, wouldn't the story flow a little better that way? It does to me at least -- it seems like he'll be good enough to get the job done, but then a new challenger appears...

Fat Buu was head and shoulders above anyone the Z team had faced previously. Super Buu was like the cherry on top of what was already a tall order. Though I can understand you having a different spin on this thematic element.

Goku was able to sense Gotenks's ki -- specifically, the kids' fused ki -- from the Kaioshin realm. It was a shock to Kibito that he could feel SSJ3 Goku's ki from the Kaioshin realm.
We can surmise that there's a difference between feeling someone's ki unprompted and seeking out someone's ki intentionally (well, this difference definitely exists in general, but we're surmising in the case of whether it makes a difference when the Kaioshin realm is involved), and the best evidence for this case might be Kid Boo finding the non-SSJ3s on Kaioshin's realm and teleporting to them, though Kid Boo use's Kaioshin's kai kai, which does not require a ki signature lock-on like shunkan ido does. But this is all pretty vague, and I don't think this point is at all necessary to prove my stance, but it tends to come up so I wanted to note it here.

The ki sensing subject doesn't seem refined enough to place a hard rule on it in the way you're contemplating. What we do know is that characters have different ki sensing depths, even to a surprising extent at times. This was exemplified through Krillin's ability to sense Future Trunks USSJ power, which caught the latter off-guard. It's one of those things that seem cool but someone would be hard-pressed to build a 'one-size-fits-all' type of system around, like when characters can watch a high-speed battle that is too fast for others to see.

Gotenks' achievement of Super Saiyan 3 is when his power was finally given firm respect. He wasn't perfect, but was a worthy competitor. Let's look at the pros and cons of SSJ3 Gotenks.

Pros:
- Received praise for achieving Super Saiyan 3 power, putting him in the same category as Goku
- Demonstrated the ability to keep up with Buu

Cons:
- Got into a scrap with Buu rather than trying to finish him from the get-go. Wasting his energy and chance of getting the job done
- Susceptible to sneaky moves and tricks. A prime example being when he got absorbed

What gives SSJ3 Gotenks the edge over SSJ3 Goku is that he's treated as having the capacity to finish Super Buu while it's indicated that Goku can't. It's possible that Goku is strong enough to give Super Buu a hell of a fight in the traditional sense (i.e. duking it out in a brawl), but just falls short of being powerful enough to entirely eradicate him, which would lead to Super Buu having dominance when Goku's power begins falling. It was smart of Goku to show caution about such a fight.

 

[Kyo]

Pre-RoSaT Gotenks' history:

- Learned fusion, but got beat up by Buu in their first fight
- Performed Super Saiyan fusion, but his abilities were in need of examination

Outcome: fusion produced a strong warrior generally speaking (the bare minimum of the technique), but what he brought to the table was questioned, which would be needless if he lived up to the hype.

The principle of Occam's razor should be considered when carving out a perspective within argumentation. Whether deliberately or not, it appears that you haven't embraced it during this talking point.

Occam's razor tells me that if Gotenks fell tremendously short of Fat Boo's power -- which he would, if SSJ3 Gotenks post-RoSaT has only a small edge over Goku -- then a demonstration would be pointless. You've argued that Piccolo asked for one anyway to see if Gotenks's confidence held any ground, despite his obvious inferiority; I'll get to that in a moment.

Needing a presentation to be convinced of a fighter's strength happens once in a while, but that 'oh snap' moment we often see after a big boost seems to be the norm, like when Vegeta went Oozaru or when Kid Gohan went Super Saiyan 2.

While both of your references include a demonstrative aspect, they don't quite connect:

3rd Form Frieza proved that Piccolo's power or speed didn't mean squat to him. In testing terms, Frieza passed with flying colours. Can't say the same for Gotenks.

The point was that Piccolo entertained the possibility that Freeza wouldn't pass with flying colors, when it should have been obvious that he would have. He still needed to actually see it to know for sure. This scene, among several others, opens the door to the idea that ki sensing does not necessarily reveal all (even though it really should, but that discussion on DB's writing is another topic).

Future Trunks was satisfied with what Goku did, but it's indicated that they were both holding back. It appears that ki control is what stood out in the exchange.

Pretty much all of Trunks's dialogue pertains to Goku's strength.

The most effective way to describe it is that Piccolo was in need of convincing, because the power up alone wasn't cutting it.

As far as the movement point, there are two things to consider:
- Speed tends to correlate to the power that a being possesses, given the simple nature of the battle system that you also acknowledge. (Occasionally there are characters like Burter who are known particularly for speed, but that doesn't apply here)

Speed does almost always correlate to the power (i.e. if someone's power is "100" then their speed is probably also "100") but it's not a hard rule. In practice it might as well be, because the Ginyus are one of very very very few examples in which the rule is actually broken and they're gimmicky fighters to begin with, but there's more than one occasion in which a character is confident/correct in their assessment of another's power but unconfident/incorrect in their assessment of their speed (Piccolo/Freeza was one example, Gohan/Fat Boo is another, Tenshinhan/Goku is another).

In other words, the characters don't always consider it a hard rule. In my reading of the scene in question, Piccolo/Gotenks is another such example.

Therefore, Gotenks' movement being assessed should give further insight into his level as a whole.

I think this insight becomes a lot less necessary if Gotenks's ki is as low as you're arguing.

- It could also be the case that Piccolo would have further questioning for Gotenks, but wanted to do things one at a time.

It could be.

Pretty straightforward.

- Piccolo is concerned with the boys not fusing as SSJs against Super Buu.
- Gotenks brags about himself
- Piccolo thinks Base Gotenks might be on to something
- Base Gotenks' power ends up being inconsequential in execution
- Piccolo makes a 180 on what he thought and says they're doomed

This scene is interesting because Piccolo is actually more hopeful of Base Gotenks's purported strength than he is of whatever it is he saw in SSJ Gotenks beforehand.

Anyway I don't think this scene is at all like the other one, and here's why:


- SSJ Gotenks doesn't actually brag before Piccolo asks for a demonstration of his movement. He brags after, much to Piccolo's annoyance (see here). SSJ Gotenks's boasts couldn't have influenced Piccolo when he made his request the same way post-RoSaT Base Gotenks's did.

- Piccolo's hopefulness in direct response to Base Gotenks's boasts in the RoSaT stands in stark contrast to his reaction to Base Gotenks's similar boasts pre-RoSaT*, but why? Aside from the nebulous claim that post-RoSaT Gotenks really had "greatly powered up," Piccolo walked into the RoSaT hoping for a miracle. We lightly touched on the fact that in the successful-fusion-to-RST timeframe, Piccolo had the opportunity to breathe and be more composed as he assessed the situation in front of him. He was in a better state of mind to assess that pre-RST Base Gotenks had no way to win; that pre-RST SSJ Gotenks did indeed have incredible ki, "but how about your movement?" This is, therefore, less a running theme of Gotenks's confidence influencing Piccolo and more a context-appropriate reaction from a desperate Piccolo that doesn't apply to the pre-RST SSJ Gotenks scene(s).

I therefore stand by my previous claims that Piccolo shouldn't need a demonstration if the individual in front of him was really obviously too weak for their end goal, that the incredible ki in front of him must be somewhat in-line with what Goku had promised in order for Gotenks to even be worth considering, and that wanting to see Gotenks in action (or just "his movement," if one prefers) is just a means to get the full picture (likely because the ki output is "only" in the neighborhood of Fat Boo's and not far above it).


*“Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

SSJ Gotenks post-RoSaT inspired a bit of hope,

Less so than Base Gotenks did. Piccolo only got his hopes up when SSJ Gotenks seemed to catch Boo in one of his new techniques (and I think after Gotenks managed to headbutt him once, but that one's got conflicting translations). I think this is even less applicable to the pre-RST Gotenks stuff.

The ki sensing subject doesn't seem refined enough to place a hard rule on it in the way you're contemplating. What we do know is that characters have different ki sensing depths, even to a surprising extent at times. This was exemplified through Krillin's ability to sense Future Trunks USSJ power, which caught the latter off-guard. It's one of those things that seem cool but someone would be hard-pressed to build a 'one-size-fits-all' type of system around, like when characters can watch a high-speed battle that is too fast for others to see.

All good points; I've nothing to add.

Gotenks' achievement of Super Saiyan 3 is when his power was finally given firm respect. He wasn't perfect, but was a worthy competitor. Let's look at the pros and cons of SSJ3 Gotenks.

Pros:
- Received praise for achieving Super Saiyan 3 power, putting him in the same category as Goku
- Demonstrated the ability to keep up with Buu

Cons:
- Got into a scrap with Buu rather than trying to finish him from the get-go. Wasting his energy and chance of getting the job done
- Susceptible to sneaky moves and tricks. A prime example being when he got absorbed

What gives SSJ3 Gotenks the edge over SSJ3 Goku is that he's treated as having the capacity to finish Super Buu while it's indicated that Goku can't. It's possible that Goku is strong enough to give Super Buu a hell of a fight in the traditional sense (i.e. duking it out in a brawl), but just falls short of being powerful enough to entirely eradicate him, which would lead to Super Buu having dominance when Goku's power begins falling. It was smart of Goku to show caution about such a fight.

It's worth keeping in mind that Goku expected (or hoped) that Gotenks would beat Fat Boo, but never expected Gotenks would attain SSJ3, even taking RoSaT training into account.

It's possible that Goku is strong enough to give Super Buu a hell of a fight in the traditional sense (i.e. duking it out in a brawl), but just falls short of being powerful enough to entirely eradicate him, which would lead to Super Buu having dominance when Goku's power begins falling.

Maybe, but I'm led to believe that it's a lot simpler than that. When Goku says that "they" (really just "he," since Vegeta's nearly a non-factor) have no chance, I envision a more one-sided fight.


Looking at Gotenks as a whole, I'd mainly like to reiterate one important point I made before: that the expectation the readers and characters were given for a successful Super Saiyan fusion of Goten and Trunks was someone who could beat Fat Boo and surpassed SSJ3 Goku, and it was of paramount importance that they at least achieved the former.

While no one came out and said "he can definitely beat Fat Boo/Goku" outright, no one ever expressed explicitly that he fell short of what he was set up to be -- at best, there is some uncertainty as to whether he can reliably get the job done, which we've discussed in depth at this point. It is also thematically congruent for characters in Dragon Ball to achieve absurd milestones like never before, only for the antagonist to one-up them yet again and dash their hopes -- the Namek and Android arcs are very much like this all throughout. Having SSJ Gotenks rise to the occasion only for another tremendous obstacle to be placed in his way would be pretty standard fare, as I said before, though I understand your opposing viewpoint here.


I am really sorry it often took me days to respond to your posts. This is probably all I have to say on the topic; I think I've exhausted all that I had on my mind. You may have the last word if you've got anything to add (we didn't touch on post-RST too much, but I personally think the bulk of the important talking points naturally fall to the pre-RST side of the story), and if anything in there is really tempting, I will continue to respond, but this's probably it from me.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Occam's razor tells me that if Gotenks fell tremendously short of Fat Boo's power -- which he would, if SSJ3 Gotenks post-RoSaT has only a small edge over Goku -- then a demonstration would be pointless. You've argued that Piccolo asked for one anyway to see if Gotenks's confidence held any ground, despite his obvious inferiority; I'll get to that in a moment.

This attempt to flip the principle doesn't hold up because it devalues the scene entirely for no reason.

A demonstration being prompted at all tells us that Piccolo didn't want to cut corners with his evaluation. He knows -- from past, first-hand experience -- that a power-up may not tell the full story of a being's capabilities. Not that Gotenks hid anything, but it appears to be a matter of Piccolo giving him a chance to shatter any doubts. Unfortunately for them, Gotenks decided to act unilaterally and didn't spark any talk of crossing a benchmark or measurable target of power.

The point was that Piccolo entertained the possibility that Freeza wouldn't pass with flying colors, when it should have been obvious that he would have. He still needed to actually see it to know for sure. This scene, among several others, opens the door to the idea that ki sensing does not necessarily reveal all (even though it really should, but that discussion on DB's writing is another topic).



Pretty much all of Trunks's dialogue pertains to Goku's strength.

Ironically, what you've said here enhances my counter-argument to your claim that the Gotenks demonstration was pointless through the lens of my premise.

Also, let's be honest about the motives here:
- Piccolo would prefer for his speed to topple 3rd Form Frieza's
- Piccolo would prefer for Gotenks to be better than Fat Buu

In both circumstances, Piccolo would rather hinge on the more favourable concept, but both outcomes were the reverse of what would've been ideal for him.

Your response about Future Trunks doesn't negate anything; it just oversimplifies the encounter. You can categorise it under the umbrella of strength, but the factors that I brought up still stand and don't require semantics.

Speed does almost always correlate to the power (i.e. if someone's power is "100" then their speed is probably also "100") but it's not a hard rule. In practice it might as well be, because the Ginyus are one of very very very few examples in which the rule is actually broken and they're gimmicky fighters to begin with, but there's more than one occasion in which a character is confident/correct in their assessment of another's power but unconfident/incorrect in their assessment of their speed (Piccolo/Freeza was one example, Gohan/Fat Boo is another, Tenshinhan/Goku is another).

In other words, the characters don't always consider it a hard rule. In my reading of the scene in question, Piccolo/Gotenks is another such example.



I think this insight becomes a lot less necessary if Gotenks's ki is as low as you're arguing.

Your conclusion is disagreeable because there are cracks in the underlying foundation of your reasoning. Each battle pair that you've used as examples have instances where the character in question undeniably proves their ability. Not only was Gotenks/Piccolo not a battle scenario, but the value of Gotenks' showcase can be argued --unlike those instances -- hence this back and forth. Fusion wasn't emphasised as being speed-oriented, so Gotenks doesn't need to be grouped with the likes of Burter. Therefore, I'm sticking to what I said.

This scene is interesting because Piccolo is actually more hopeful of Base Gotenks's purported strength than he is of whatever it is he saw in SSJ Gotenks beforehand.

Anyway I don't think this scene is at all like the other one, and here's why:


- SSJ Gotenks doesn't actually brag before Piccolo asks for a demonstration of his movement. He brags after, much to Piccolo's annoyance (see here). SSJ Gotenks's boasts couldn't have influenced Piccolo when he made his request the same way post-RoSaT Base Gotenks's did.

This angle splits hairs and doesn't get to the bottom of the core point.

Even during the pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks sequence, the theme of Gotenks' behaviour affecting Piccolo is still there. That's why he actively tried to reduce this factor by telling the boys to not get cocky beforehand:

That explains why they didn't brag after the power-up. But regardless of that, Gotenks still gave off the impression of supreme confidence with how he was grinning from ear to ear.

All in all, the point is that Piccolo is supposed to serve as a level-headed instructor, but was still capable of getting caught up in clouded judgement; the pre-RoSaT instance was him attempting to eliminate that, while the post-RoSaT scene was him momentarily falling victim to it.

- Piccolo's hopefulness in direct response to Base Gotenks's boasts in the RoSaT stands in stark contrast to his reaction to Base Gotenks's similar boasts pre-RoSaT*, but why? Aside from the nebulous claim that post-RoSaT Gotenks really had "greatly powered up," Piccolo walked into the RoSaT hoping for a miracle. We lightly touched on the fact that in the successful-fusion-to-RST timeframe, Piccolo had the opportunity to breathe and be more composed as he assessed the situation in front of him. He was in a better state of mind to assess that pre-RST Base Gotenks had no way to win; that pre-RST SSJ Gotenks did indeed have incredible ki, "but how about your movement?" This is, therefore, less a running theme of Gotenks's confidence influencing Piccolo and more a context-appropriate reaction from a desperate Piccolo that doesn't apply to the pre-RST SSJ Gotenks scene(s).

I therefore stand by my previous claims that Piccolo shouldn't need a demonstration if the individual in front of him was really obviously too weak for their end goal, that the incredible ki in front of him must be somewhat in-line with what Goku had promised in order for Gotenks to even be worth considering, and that wanting to see Gotenks in action (or just "his movement," if one prefers) is just a means to get the full picture (likely because the ki output is "only" in the neighborhood of Fat Boo's and not far above it).


*“Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”



Less so than Base Gotenks did. Piccolo only got his hopes up when SSJ Gotenks seemed to catch Boo in one of his new techniques (and I think after Gotenks managed to headbutt him once, but that one's got conflicting translations). I think this is even less applicable to the pre-RST Gotenks stuff.

Judging from your analysis of Piccolo, it seems like you're trying to squeeze water from stone but there's nothing there despite how lengthy your explanation is.

Seeing as Piccolo retracted his brief glimpse of joy, it can be inferred that -- although he was generally grounded in his interpretation of events -- he's not perfect and can still make the occasional error. If anything, that strengthens the importance of his decision of having a demonstration take place instead of just sloppily giving Gotenks the go-ahead to fight straight after he's formed.

Your prioritisation of extreme specificity steers away from the primary focus.

It's worth keeping in mind that Goku expected (or hoped) that Gotenks would beat Fat Boo, but never expected Gotenks would attain SSJ3, even taking RoSaT training into account.

It should also be kept in mind that when SSJ3 Gotenks became a thing, it didn't lead to talks about him being in a different league than Goku.

Given the dialogue, what makes Gotenks special is that he essentially fast-tracked his way to achieving a level that Goku -- who himself is a rare talent -- literally took life and death to achieve.

Maybe, but I'm led to believe that it's a lot simpler than that. When Goku says that "they" (really just "he," since Vegeta's nearly a non-factor) have no chance, I envision a more one-sided fight.

Given the difference in our scaling, I wouldn't expect you to agree, but you at least acknowledge another perspective, which I'll reciprocate.

Looking at Gotenks as a whole, I'd mainly like to reiterate one important point I made before: that the expectation the readers and characters were given for a successful Super Saiyan fusion of Goten and Trunks was someone who could beat Fat Boo and surpassed SSJ3 Goku, and it was of paramount importance that they at least achieved the former.

While no one came out and said "he can definitely beat Fat Boo/Goku" outright, no one ever expressed explicitly that he fell short of what he was set up to be -- at best, there is some uncertainty as to whether he can reliably get the job done, which we've discussed in depth at this point. It is also thematically congruent for characters in Dragon Ball to achieve absurd milestones like never before, only for the antagonist to one-up them yet again and dash their hopes -- the Namek and Android arcs are very much like this all throughout. Having SSJ Gotenks rise to the occasion only for another tremendous obstacle to be placed in his way would be pretty standard fare, as I said before, though I understand your opposing viewpoint here.

When looking at, not just Gotenks, but the storyline as a whole, we see that the plot doesn't shy away from having a character showcase their power when they're comparable to Buu. We saw that with Goku (Fat Buu and Kid Buu), Gohan (Super Buu), and Vegito (Buuhan). This applies to Gotenks, but only with Super Saiyan 3.

Fusion is a great shortcut for attaining more power, but ultimately, a character still ought to prove themselves with it instead of getting carried away by the increase. For example, both Shin and Kibito don't have a hunger for combat or gaining strength, yet when they fused they were eager to fight Buu, but got humbled when Old Kai slammed that idea completely. When the novelty of fusion wears off, it's on the character to show what they're made of when the conversation surrounding them doesn't certify the hype.

I am really sorry it often took me days to respond to your posts. This is probably all I have to say on the topic; I think I've exhausted all that I had on my mind. You may have the last word if you've got anything to add (we didn't touch on post-RST too much, but I personally think the bulk of the important talking points naturally fall to the pre-RST side of the story), and if anything in there is really tempting, I will continue to respond, but this's probably it from me.

No problem.

A couple more points to bring up.

The late portion of the Buu Arc blatantly treats each top Z Fighter (Goku, Gotenks and Gohan) as being comparable to each other. For example, Goku considered getting Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu, but they weren't implied to have the capability of making it a blowout victory. Also, having them both come instead of just one would be pointless if either can finish him off with ease like your scaling suggests.

That explains why Goku encouraged them all to train in case that type of threat presents itself again.

 

[sapuramura]

Problem with a lot of debates like this is that we base almost everything on supersaiyan multipliers and try to math this and that, but Toriyama never cared for multipliers and all of their power is narrative based. In Toriyamas mind both Goku and Gotenks in SSJ3 can be pretty much equal, but since we base everything on multipliers in our mind fusion multipliers + SSJ multipliers mathematically gives just too much power for Goku to be equal to fused SSJ3.

 

[Kyo]

It should also be kept in mind that when SSJ3 Gotenks became a thing, it didn't lead to talks about him being in a different league than Goku.

Given the dialogue, what makes Gotenks special is that he essentially fast-tracked his way to achieving a level that Goku -- who himself is a rare talent -- literally took life and death to achieve.

There were no such talks about Gohan being in a different league than Goku after his powerup either (I'll argue that he is in fact in a different league below). He is called amazing and such, and at a couple of points called something like "the mightiest of warriors," but no direct comparison to Goku is explicitly made like that.

Still, it is worth considering that the emphasis is on his quick achievement of SSJ3, yes -- I just think that the points I've brought up previously that inform my current scaling are sufficient.
If I were to really split hairs, then I'd say that Goku, having sensed the boys' fused ki before, would be relieved as well as impressed -- sensing the blatantly not-SSJ3-Goku-tier of power from before should have dashed his hopes of the boys getting anything done, considering that he couldn't yet imagine them achieving SSJ3, leaving Gohan as their real last hope. I would think that, upon learning that the boys are fighting in the RoSaT, he'd be a lot more worried about them getting clobbered, but he's cracking jokes at Kaioshin's expense.

A couple more points to bring up.

I'll respond to these and then leave it there; you're free to respond as you wish, after which point I think we can open up the thread for the others, if that works for you.

The late portion of the Buu Arc blatantly treats each top Z Fighter (Goku, Gotenks and Gohan) as being comparable to each other. For example, Goku considered getting Gotenks and Gohan to fight Kid Buu, but they weren't implied to have the capability of making it a blowout victory. Also, having them both come instead of just one would be pointless if either can finish him off with ease like your scaling suggests.

But it's extremely hard to deny that Gohan could have done exactly that, no? Gohan vs Super Boo was incredibly one-sided in Gohan's favor, and Goku can't beat Super Boo. Goku's also confident in Gohan taking out Super Boo by himself after the Gotenks fusion inside him runs out.

Even if the difference between Goku and Super Boo is marginal, this tells us that Gohan should have just as easy of a time with Kid Boo and that Goku should have no issue with a Gohan/Kid Boo 1v1. This should supersede everything else. So if Goku is wanting to make the most "accurate" statement, he should only be suggesting that Gohan come regardless of how your scaling or mine works out; this tells us that he's just speaking generally and naming both of the individuals who could conceivably lend a hand.

That explains why Goku encouraged them all to train in case that type of threat presents itself again.

The way you've laid this out in relation to your other points flows nicely, but I don't think there's any situation in which Goku wouldn't encourage them to train here. Even with the power of Gotenks and Gohan, the Boo debacle in its entirety was a very close call. And while he is speaking about everyone here, I'm inclined to believe that the suggestion is more for himself and Vegeta.

Cheers.

 

[Spiral-Force]

There were no such talks about Gohan being in a different league than Goku after his powerup either (I'll argue that he is in fact in a different league below). He is called amazing and such, and at a couple of points called something like "the mightiest of warriors," but no direct comparison to Goku is explicitly made like that.

With how things went, it makes sense that that narrative wasn't pushed. Wise decision on the writers part.

Still, it is worth considering that the emphasis is on his quick achievement of SSJ3, yes -- I just think that the points I've brought up previously that inform my current scaling are sufficient.
If I were to really split hairs, then I'd say that Goku, having sensed the boys' fused ki before, would be relieved as well as impressed -- sensing the blatantly not-SSJ3-Goku-tier of power from before should have dashed his hopes of the boys getting anything done, considering that he couldn't yet imagine them achieving SSJ3, leaving Gohan as their real last hope. I would think that, upon learning that the boys are fighting in the RoSaT, he'd be a lot more worried about them getting clobbered, but he's cracking jokes at Kaioshin's expense.

Interesting that you dedicated a paragraph as to how you'd deliberately split hairs.

For folks that aren't in-the-know, non-SSJ3 Gotenks doesn't hold a candle to Super Buu, so unironically using the worried Goku angle would be cherry-picking.

In any case, Goku barely got screen-time to give a play-by-play and expressed his frustration over not being able to see what was going on to assess things. Not surprising that someone as simple-minded as Goku would just be glad that SSJ3 Gotenks is keeping up instead of going into deep calculation over the past, especially while the fight was still active.

But it's extremely hard to deny that Gohan could have done exactly that, no? Gohan vs Super Boo was incredibly one-sided in Gohan's favor, and Goku can't beat Super Boo. Goku's also confident in Gohan taking out Super Boo by himself after the Gotenks fusion inside him runs out.

Even if the difference between Goku and Super Boo is marginal, this tells us that Gohan should have just as easy of a time with Kid Boo and that Goku should have no issue with a Gohan/Kid Boo 1v1. This should supersede everything else. So if Goku is wanting to make the most "accurate" statement, he should only be suggesting that Gohan come regardless of how your scaling or mine works out; this tells us that he's just speaking generally and naming both of the individuals who could conceivably lend a hand.

After a few physical attacks from Gohan (which are ineffective against a Buu), Super Buu expressed that he was testing him to see if he had really grown from their previous encounter in which Buu thrashed him during his fat phase.

After that, the only standout thing was Super Buu's ki explosion, which Gohan and the others ran from for safety. Super Buu was a serious threat the whole time. Before Gohan departed from the Kaioshin Realm, they were wishing him luck and trying to reassure him that things will be fine.

Gohan had the same problem as Gotenks and Goku; squaring up to their rival Buu as if it was a regular fight. Given this tendency, it makes sense why both Gohan and Gotenks were considered to fight Kid Buu. Each of these beings can tango with one another, but the good guys are more limited in how they can fight this monster, who himself thrives in chaos and pushes the pace to make it a messy fight.

The way you've laid this out in relation to your other points flows nicely, but I don't think there's any situation in which Goku wouldn't encourage them to train here. Even with the power of Gotenks and Gohan, the Boo debacle in its entirety was a very close call. And while he is speaking about everyone here, I'm inclined to believe that the suggestion is more for himself and Vegeta.

Cheers.

It's within Goku's nature to say something like this or at least think this way generally speaking. However, in this case the Buu situation was used as the reasoning for recommended training, so it all ties together.

I can sense where this'd go if we were to continue: you thinking that I'm looking too far into things, and then me disagreeing. So we could just end it here. Practically everything has been covered.

I appreciate the debate.

If any of you would like to give feedback, feel free to do so now.

 

[ahill1]

Nice debate. I appreciate you two went as in depth as you could in your posts and I appreciate Kyo going as in depth and doing his best to keep it going with solid points about the overall situation when he's already not as engaged in DB debating as before, not to mention free time and such changes when we become graduated and start working more heavily.

Overall, as of several years, I've been of the opinion that Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku and that hasn't changed, tho I don't see the need to keep the SSJ multiplier fixed over all the story and have a more conservative gap between Ultimate Gohan and Goku than most --- around 20x or so, with fusions in specific getting a lesser boost than the already dropped boost from the original 10x.

I also think that with Elder Kaioshin saying the SSJ is not the right way of doing things, that the final stage of development for a Saiyan would be having all their SSJ states power ups stocked into their natural base states, so I like to imagine Gohan reaching this stage with Ultimate and Goku being halfway there by the end of Z, with his base being around his previous SSJ3 and his SSJ power ups all being way smaller than before, all fusion-like (2x for SSJ, 1.5x for SSJ2 and 2x for SSJ3)... I believe the SSJ multiplier shrunk from 50x to 10x after them mastering it, then shrunk down even more, proportionally to before, with fusions and with Goku at the end of the manga, going from 10x to 2x... making it seem like Goku's base is already getting close to become his own power and helping have a more bearable gap between Gohan/Gotenks and Goku when noting the same for fusions.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Glad that you're satisfied. Debating is something I take seriously each and every time.

Thanks to those that liked my posts. Absolutely acknowledged.

 

[ahill1]

Yes, I can see you take debates very seriously no matter the circumstances and who you are debating with and always put a lot of effort into your posts, making them as substantiated as possible. Those are traits I definitely respect from you.