How do you view the Super Saiyan boost?

[Hector]

Forget about convenience when making power level lists, forum discussions etc Just by reading the manga, what is the vibe you feel it gives off?

 

[Warmmedown]

Can't really be an addition, because then at a certain point kaioken would become stronger than SSJ.

No reason to think it's a fixed number at ssj or that base can't improve because I'm pretty sure people commented on Goku/Vegeta/Trunks/Gohan getting being stronger within the same form after rosat training. Unless the limit is somewhere above that, but nothing to indicate that.

So multiplier, going by the manga/anime only. Dunno if it's a fixed multiplier or variable though, based on just the manga/anime.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The SEG states it's a 50x boost and nothing in the original manga suggests otherwise (at least other than perhaps fusions), so no need to have it any differently for the majority of characters.
Ultimately, the real answer is whatever the plot requires, especially in material after the original manga.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Several fold, while that one guide book says its 50x it seems like every other source offers a different answer. Including Toriyama himself.

 

[Future Warrior]

It's an increase in power. How much is just speculation as far as the manga is concerned.

 

[SSJ2]

50x.

For power level lists I give fusions a 4x boost for personal preference, but nothing supports it being any different than what the SEG states.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

but nothing supports it being any different than what the SEG states.

As far as scaling goes, I'd say Gotenks in general supports it being different for fusions. All implications point to his base self pre-Rosat being more or less on SS2 tier, whereas his SSJ self isn't suggested to be leagues stronger than SS3 Goku, making it difficult to imagine Gotenks getting any more than a 4x boost.

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

50?

Y'all believe in Santa?

 

[theallpowerfulpuipui]

Simply plot, after the Frieza fight the boost is completely arbitrary. By Buu saga and Super/GT the base approaches not only SSJ, but whatever the ultimate form is at the moment.

 

[Warmmedown]

How does anyone get 50x "just by reading the manga"? You using a microscope to look at secret footnotes?

 

[SSJ2]

Because the fight with Freeza tells us as much.

Goku: 10
-Kaioken x20: 200
-Super Saiyan: 500

50% Freeza: 200+
100% Freeza: 400+

Don't need to be a rocket scientist to see it.

 

[Warmmedown]

Fair enough.

Still lol at the topic specifying manga only and half the responses using the guidebook as justification.

 

[GSM123]

I don’t think anyone who voted for multiplier can say that while keeping a straight face, specially OP goes out of it’s way to say manga reading only.

I think it’s somewhere between fixed level and limit breaker, which is the closest to “determined by plot”. SSJ seems to work by drawing on anger. External sources don’t change my mind, taking them into account.

 

[SSJ2]

Anger is only shown to be the initial trigger of Super Saiyan. The fact that other transformations have consistent multipliers - like Oozaru being stated to be 10x for all Saiyans, means that there's no reason for Super Saiyan to have different boosts unless we are directly shown that.

 

[GSM123]

Anger is only shown to be the initial trigger of Super Saiyan. The fact that other transformations have consistent multipliers - like Oozaru being stated to be 10x for all Saiyans, means that there's no reason for Super Saiyan to have different boosts unless we are directly shown that.

There are differents degrees of anger though, which can influentiate in the level of power. Gohan is a clear example of this. Goku himself also suffered this on Namek, getting so angry his power up overcame his injuries. The fact the form can be suppressed and powered up under different variations (Grade forms, SSJ2, 3) is also a variation of multiplier in itself.

The Oozaru transformation is based off a external factor though - the amount of Blutz Waves. Who knows what happens if a Saiyan is exposed to more? Not manga, but doesn't Baby Vegeta take more Blutz Waves than normal at one point? Not to mention Oozaru was only used once (thrice if we count OG), while SSJ was explored way more.

 

[Hector]

Can't really be an addition, because then at a certain point kaioken would become stronger than SSJ.

There is a theory saying that kaioken becomes less effective in high power levels, which explains why nobody bothered using it after Freeza Saga.

 

[Hector]

Anger is only shown to be the initial trigger of Super Saiyan. The fact that other transformations have consistent multipliers - like Oozaru being stated to be 10x for all Saiyans, means that there's no reason for Super Saiyan to have different boosts unless we are directly shown that.

Except that Oozaru and Kaioken were clearly stated to be multipliers. SSJ on the other hand was never presented as such. On the contrary, all that hype about legends in Freeza Saga implies that it is a new power not connected to the user's base power.

 

[SSJ2]

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Seems like an awfully weird statement for Toriyama to include if Base and Super Saiyan aren't linked. There's also this:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

 

[GSM123]

Vegeta is saying that he's going to be stronger regardless of forms, not that because he's the strongest in one form he'll be in another. Later on Trunks suggets Vegeta is actually stronger than Goku, and that only gets debunked when Goku shows his SSJ2 power in front of Vegeta.

Trunks: “Wasn’t he supposed to be incredible? He doesn’t look it though…My dad seems stronger.”
Goten: “…But my big brother said our father was the best in the universe.”

Kaioshin is only making prediction based on his hopes and limited knowledge. Surely Goku wouldn't have said he doesn't know Gohan's strength in base power? Or at least wouldn't have dismissed the lack of Super Saiyan as holding him and Gohan back from surpassing it back in the Rosat?

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta is saying that he's going to be stronger regardless of forms, not that because he's the strongest in one form he'll be in another. Later on Trunks suggets Vegeta is actually stronger than Goku, and that only gets debunked when Goku shows his SSJ2 power in front of Vegeta.

But he doesn't just say that he'll be the strongest, he states that "the conditions will be the same", which directly tells us that nobody will be at an advantage or disadvantage with these rules.

The quote from Trunks really holds no relevancy here. Goku had just returned from the dead and was obviously not displaying his full power.

Kaioshin is only making prediction based on his hopes and limited knowledge. Surely Goku wouldn't have said he doesn't know Gohan's strength in base power? Or at least wouldn't have dismissed the lack of Super Saiyan as holding him and Gohan back from surpassing it back in the Rosat?
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I don't understand your point here in all honesty. The point that I'm making isn't relying on the fact that Gohan did become stronger, or by how much. It's that Goku/Gohan never disputed Kaioshin's assertion that Gohan's Super Saiyan would also increase in power. Goku even was pondering whether or not he'd be good enough to beat Boo now, and he was only considering his Base power at the time of the statement.