How much does Goku's kamehameha improve post-Vegeta Saga and when in the story does it get improved?

[Warmmedown]

Piccolo says Cell's KHH was nothing to worry about because it was based on Goku's from the Vegeta Saga.

 

[SSJ2]

It probably incrementally improved as Goku continued to become stronger/become a greater master of Ki. If you look at Vegeta, he developed a new technique seemingly every arc that exceeded the last one. Goku chose to keep the KHH as his main attack, so his gains were probably the same over time.

As for how much, if Piccolo considers 2.22x amplification to be a joke, I can see Cell arc Goku having at least 3.5-4x amp.

 

[Hector]

I have it at 1.5x at the beginning of Saiyans Saga and see no reason to treat it any different at least until the beginning of Androids Saga.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It probably incrementally improved as Goku continued to become stronger/become a greater master of Ki. If you look at Vegeta, he developed a new technique seemingly every arc that exceeded the last one. Goku chose to keep the KHH as his main attack, so his gains were probably the same over time.

As for how much, if Piccolo considers 2.22x amplification to be a joke, I can see Cell arc Goku having at least 3.5-4x amp.

Regeneration aside, do you think CG Goku could’ve killed FP Cell?

 

[SSJ2]

Regeneration aside, do you think CG Goku could’ve killed FP Cell?

If Cell couldn't regenerate and wasn't defending himself then maybe. But if he amplified his defenses at all Goku wouldn't be able to touch him.

 

[The_Authority]

I don't look at the attacks in the series as having their own amplifiers, etc. All characters know how to control their ki and raise/lower it at will. Goku can fire off a small and weak Kamehame-Ha by concentrating less ki into it and he can go all out and fire off a giant and powerful Kamehame-Ha if he put more of himself into it.

If Vegeta's Final Flash took half of Cell's body, then I'm positive Goku can muster up enough ki into his Kamehame-Ha to do the same. And if Cell doesn't get to regenerate, it's over for him.

I think my theory is only proven by the fact that Gohan (and Cell, for that matter) were able to fire off a massive Kamehame-Ha for their final beam struggle and other times were able to fire off smaller/weaker ones.

I don't think there's reason for Goku to ever change the Kamehame-Ha unless it's a different style of attack. Meaning, as long as it's an attack that fires off ki from his body, he can just keep using Kamehame-Ha. The Genki Dama is different because it uses others' ki. A Kienzan is different because it's concentrated into a very thin disc that can slice through things. If we're just taking about a ki blast/wave attack, there shouldn't be any reason for Goku to learn another one because he can tap as much of his ki into it as he wants. If he wants to focus 100% of his ki into it and fire off an attack that would essentially drain him and kill him, then I'm pretty sure he can.

 

[Yoshi]

As for how much, if Piccolo considers 2.22x amplification to be a joke, I can see Cell arc Goku having at least 3.5-4x amp.

Any reason why you believe Saiyan Saga Kamehameha is x2.22 and Makankosappo is x3.5 other than what we’re shown?

 

[Dagon]

I think my theory is only proven by the fact that Gohan (and Cell, for that matter) were able to fire off a massive Kamehame-Ha for their final beam struggle and other times were able to fire off smaller/weaker ones.

Did someone seriously think that other people were arguing that special ki attacks only ever worked at precisely the known multiplier? That a Kamehameha could only ever be >2.22x and couldn't be modified? As if it worked like a fireball spell in Skyrim? Like a fixed amount for each cast? Like friggin' D&D?

How someone comes to the idea that other people were arguing for this is beyond me.

 

[The_Authority]

Did someone seriously think that other people were arguing that special ki attacks only ever worked at precisely the known multiplier? That a Kamehameha could only ever be >2.22x and couldn't be modified? As if it worked like a fireball spell in Skyrim? Like a fixed amount for each cast? Like friggin' D&D?

How someone comes to the idea that other people were arguing for this is beyond me.

I'm just saying that it always depends on the user. It's not the Kamehame-Ha multiplier so much as it's just a general amount of ki that Gokub puts into it. Doesn't matter if it's a Kamehame-Ha or a Final Flash or a Kikoho--it's about who uses it and how much ki they put into it.

 

[Hector]

Regeneration aside, do you think CG Goku could’ve killed FP Cell?

Manga wise, yes. Anime wise, some superficial damage in the best case.

 

[SSJ2]

Any reason why you believe Saiyan Saga Kamehameha is x2.22 and Makankosappo is x3.5 other than what we’re shown?

The scouters are the only thing we have to go off. The only argument you could make is that Goku/Piccolo exceeded 416/408, but Raditz never made note of that so it's pretty difficult to argue anything else.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, taking that at face value true, it would suggest that what Cell took from Goku then, the KMHMH amplification, was nothing compared to what current versions of Goku could put forth in amping his KMHMH.

Tbh, when I was younger and read that for the first time (as well as watched the anime) I thought Piccolo was referring to the power the KMHMH had being exactly the power Goku had from that time, that is, maybe 32,000 vs Vegeta. While that's a straightforward interpretation and may be even what Toriyama had in mind for all we know, it would go without saying that Cell, a SSJ level threat, wouldn't use a 32,000 attack.

It's also weird when factoring the KMHMH as >> 2.22x to me since Piccolo says that was nothing to worry about and, later on, calls the KMHMH pathetic... If it were a 2.22x amp right then, then that would be an attack surpassing Full Power Piccolo, #17, maybe, depending on one's gaps, rivaling #16. It'd be like Saiyans saga Vegeta calling a 30,000 chi blast a "pathetic attack". Or if Goku could put forth a, let's say, 1,800 KMHMH, that being called pathetic by Raditz. It wouldn't be pathetic at all since if it hit home they'd be pulverized. It'd basically imply that a KMHMH that is wayy beyond Piccolo (since a 2.22x gap would put that Cell far above Piccolo) is pathetic because it could be even stronger... I don't agree with that, if it's so beyond him that it has the potential to completely wreck him, then it shouldn't matter whether it was 2.22x or if it would have been, like, 3x now... Because the threat had it hit Piccolo would be the same.

Which is why I don't like to think in chi amplifier attacks logic. I don't think the 2.22x one was being factored in fully after a certain point. Even when Kaioken x20 Goku could already be somewhat close to 50% Freeza (like what, like a 60 vs 70 gap?), Freeza could still stop it without powering up to even 70% of his power... While if it followed from 2.22x plus, it could make the KMHMH itself already on par with 100% Freeza.

So I think that either the 2.22x was only valid in the Raditz battle and not anymore, or Goku and Piccolo were actually way stronger there when fighting, like in the ~800 range and then, the KMHMH and the Makankosappo wouldn't carry all that huge amplification over their read powers before fighting (being more like 1.2x and 1.7x amps respectively), which would work better power level wise and the potential a 2x power up entailed in the Cell arc. Let's say Goku evolved from 1.2x to 1.5x with the KMHMH... And 1.2x was not anything to worry about for Kamiccolo, but a 1.5x would have been a thing already to be cautious of, the now Goku's amplified attack, were it to hit home ofc.

 

[Yoshi]

On topic, I believe that the Super Kamehameha amplifier is insane, far surpassing the Gekiretsu Kodan and only surpassed by the Final Flash. I also believe that the Gekiretsu Kodan is stronger than the Makankosappo.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

A lot and especially after the Freeza arc where he comes up with Instant Kamehameha on the spot during the Cell Games. If Goku had the raw power to kill Cell (i.e. SSJ2 Pre-Teen Gohan), he would've ended everything then and there.

 

[Warmmedown]

I think ahill makes a good point about Kamiolo not being over 2.2 times 1st form Cell's strength. Unless he considered it nothing to worry about because he a sufficient ki amplifying defence to use, like firing his own beam (which even with a lesser amplification could block the KHH due to the difference in their base powers) or a ki-powered block.

I dunno how Goku/Piccolo being 800 while fighting could work with Raditz picking it up on his scouter though.

 

[Yoshi]

I think scouters just malfunction more than they should. Another reason why Vegeta got rid of his.

 

[Dagon]

The scouters are the only thing we have to go off. The only argument you could make is that Goku/Piccolo exceeded 416/408, but Raditz never made note of that so it's pretty difficult to argue anything else.

I think there are some Carddass cards that put Piccolo Jr saga Goku and Piccolo around 600, but it could still be hyperbole or referring to special attacks.

Yeah, taking that at face value true, it would suggest that what Cell took from Goku then, the KMHMH amplification, was nothing compared to what current versions of Goku could put forth in amping his KMHMH.

Tbh, when I was younger and read that for the first time (as well as watched the anime) I thought Piccolo was referring to the power the KMHMH had being exactly the power Goku had from that time, that is, maybe 32,000 vs Vegeta. While that's a straightforward interpretation and may be even what Toriyama had in mind for all we know, it would go without saying that Cell, a SSJ level threat, wouldn't use a 32,000 attack.

That's probably what Toriyama was thinking because he refused to look back at his past work for any attempt at consistency. We just have to interpret it in a more consistent manner.

Piccolo dodged the Kamehameha so it's not like Piccolo must be over twice Cell's level then.