How strong is Freeza when he first fights Goku?

[FeatsofPower]

So in an effort to determine something I brought up in Kyo's thread, let's explore this further. Freeza increases his speed against Vegeta and then seems to be forced to go all out against the Final Burst Cannon.

Vegeta is shocked at Freeza's power.

Then we see Goku easily blocking Freeza's Death Beams. Let's look at the evidence and see if Goku blocked Death Beams on par with Initial Freeza's level, or the increased speed level showcased or even beyond. I have looked at it like this for many years and believe I was the first one to bring up the various levels of Freeza vs Vegeta/Goku. This topic would also KO the idea of Goku being 3 million as well.

Here's what I go by.

Full Effort vs Final Burst Cannon = Freeza No Hands vs Goku
Increased Speed vs Vegeta = Warming up vs Goku
Initial vs Vegeta = Initial vs Goku

 

[Hector]

Full Effort vs Final Burst Cannon = Freeza No Hands vs Goku
Increased Speed vs Vegeta = Warming up vs Goku
Initial vs Vegeta = Initial vs Goku

Exactly.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku only notices one power up inside his healing pod. It’s all the same level, bar maybe the “warm up over” bit.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku only notices one power up inside his healing pod. It’s all the same level, bar maybe the “warm up over” bit.

This wouldn't necessarily be a fair representation of what's going on. The story does not cut to Goku for every increase of power Freeza makes. So to assume that us not getting commentary from Goku means it didn't happen wouldn't be accurate.

Goku's statements usually come in the form of a supporting role to compliment what is going on at the battle field. The events that transpire there and the common knowledge assumed by all is the superior method here.

Freeza indicates he uses three different levels of ability against Vegeta and he does the same against Goku as well.

 

[Kyo]

I have always assumed that Freeza is using his second level here, not his first one.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don’t think this several levels thing is important. It’s like trying to gauge the power of each individual punch they throw.

 

[Kyo]

It is important. The fact that they're using varying degrees of effort comes straight from their mouths.

It’s like trying to gauge the power of each individual punch they throw.

More doable than you'd think.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I sorta get you guys, but not totally. It’s like gauging the effort level Goku used vs Yakon or Recoome used vs Vegeta.

Effort levels represent power ups for the Z Fighters (See how Goku goes from 5k to 60k just by punching or dodging), but not really with Freeza.

 

[Kyo]

Well, here's one pretty concrete example...Vegeta can follow Freeza's movement at first, but then can't soon after.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But then Freeza explicitly mentions raising his speed. And Goku could follow Vegeta’s movements when they started fighting! Is that a level up? Does anyone list “Vegeta (Toying) = 9,000” on their lists?

 

[Kyo]

Yeah, he raised his speed.

I dunno what you mean by Goku and Vegeta.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku dodges Vegeta a bit without Kaio-Ken when they fight. It was just a generic example of a lesser character keeping up with a stronger one who’s holding back.

Like yeah, Vegeta was holding back, but nobody cares to talk about this. Why the power Freeza used for like 1 panel to kill Dende relevant?

Freeza was always 3,000,000+ but they couldn’t tell exactly. It was a bit hazy. Not a lower number, more like the number was blurred. Then he shows his speed to dodge Vegeta, and then he shows his power to kick his blast. It’s like Raditz revealing his power throughout the chapters. Nothing to make power levels about.

 

[Kyo]

People don't talk about Vegeta or Raditz much because their full powers are stated in the text. Examining how Freeza uses his power during his fights and what he accomplishes at each "level" allows powerlevelfags to arrive at the more "important" stuff with greater specificity.

And the levels we're discussing here are pretty distinct too. I don't think we're being that unreasonable. Like I said above, you could go a lot more specific, but with little gain.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I have always assumed that Freeza is using his second level here, not his first one.

Well, Freeza should be using 3 levels against Vegeta I'd assume.

Initial Level
Increased Speed
Full Effort to Kick Back Blast

Freeza says he was going to go easy on him. And raise his power slowly when he does start beating Vegeta.

Are you assuming he wouldn't go all the way back down?

I feel like Freeza is only going to use the power necessary. And the quick ability to jump back up to Goku's warm up level indicates that he was at a very low baseline from the get-go.

 

[Kyo]

Are you assuming he wouldn't go all the way back down?

Yeah.
Right now I go by Freeza vs warmup Goku being a level in between Freeza kicking the blast and Freeza's "increased speed" vs Vegeta.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

People don't talk about Vegeta or Raditz much because their full powers are stated in the text. Examining how Freeza uses his power during his fights and what he accomplishes at each "level" allows powerlevelfags to arrive at the more "important" stuff with greater specificity.

And the levels we're discussing here are pretty distinct too. I don't think we're being that unreasonable. Like I said above, you could go a lot more specific, but with little gain.

Yeah I “get it”, but I think it’s easier to just follow that do speculative stuff on how strong they thought Freeza was and argue these guesses are better than the special stuff. Freeza’s 120 million is debatable, but 150 million is like a universal language. It’s the last number we got and everybody uses it as a parameter.

Well, Freeza should be using 3 levels against Vegeta I'd assume.

Initial Level
Increased Speed
Full Effort to Kick Back Blast

Freeza says he was going to go easy on him. And raise his power slowly when he does start beating Vegeta.

Are you assuming he wouldn't go all the way back down?

I feel like Freeza is only going to use the power necessary. And the quick ability to jump back up to Goku's warm up level indicates that he was at a very low baseline from the get-go.

I used to use the same logic as Kyo back in the day because Freeza starting at 1% sounds cool. Nowadays I think he only raised his speed, then his power up to pair to kick the blast, then probably lowered effort when he underestimated Goku. He got serious to kick the blast but attacks Goku thinking he’s a random Saiyan.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

One percent of his power is canon YOU XANT XHANGE MY MIND!!!

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah.
Right now I go by Freeza vs warmup Goku being a level in between Freeza kicking the blast and Freeza's "increased speed" vs Vegeta.

Shouldn’t this be effort based though? Freeza has a realm of power he can access based on his level of effort. When he initially attacks Goku it seems like he’s barely trying. I’d assume it’s the lowest power for the lowest effort.

150 million is like a universal language. It’s the last number we got and everybody uses it as a parameter.

Anyone who’s every spent more than a minute thinking about the number knows that it has some severe problems.

Nowadays I think he only raised his speed, then his power up to pair to kick the blast,

If that were the case why would Vegeta and Piccolo be so shocked at Freeza’s ability to kick it back? Piccolo thought Freeza would be killed alongside the entire planet.

Freeza > Vegeta’s Blast > Expected Freeza

then probably lowered effort when he underestimated Goku. He got serious to kick the blast but attacks Goku thinking he’s a random Saiyan.

I do agree with this. I think Freeza is using bare minimum effort when attacking Goku, which is why he barely seems to need to show any effort to keep up with Goku right after that.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Anyone who’s every spent more than a minute thinking about the number knows that it has some severe problems.

Nah it definitely takes more than 1 minute.

If that were the case why would Vegeta and Piccolo be so shocked at Freeza’s ability to kick it back? Piccolo thought Freeza would be killed alongside the entire planet.

Freeza > Vegeta’s Blast > Expected Freeza

Because he never showed the power to kick it back?

This reminds me of a talk we had on Discord before. You told me characters are always surprised when their best attacks are ineffective. I think it was about Goku vs Old PD.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Because he never showed the power to kick it back?

Exactly and no one assumed he had that power despite his speed showcased.

Could be a case of Jackie Chun vs Krillen.

This reminds me of a talk we had on Discord before. You told me characters are always surprised when their best attacks are ineffective. I think it was about Goku vs Old PD.

Yeah I was thinking about that as well. But surprise should indicate better than expected performance which means the fighter is showcasing higher power than advertised.