Humans on King Kai's planet.

[Evil Vegeta]

I remember when people were suggesting Piccolo's "we amplifying our energy in one tremendous burst" was his pseudo version of the Kaio-Ken.

As for the humans, I have no idea. Kaio said they wanted even tougher training than Goku received, so I'm gonna assume Kaio gave it to them. I'm good with them being in the 30-60k range when all is said and done. Except Chaozu.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Does this implies Post Kaio Goku > Post Kaio Tenshinhan?

Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P8.4
Context: talking about Kaio’s training
Tenshinhan: “I can’t surpass Goku doing the same training…I’ll have to just quickly grasp the point of the training and polish my techniques in my unique way…I just won’t accept the sort of pathetic showing as last time…”

Keep in mind this is just after Goku left for Namek. Tenshinhan thinks he needs to innovate on his techniques elsewise he ain't catching up.

Though I'd say them being below 8k because they never learned Kaio-Ken is based on solid evidence rather than speculation as well. Daizenshuu 7 implies Kaio-Ken usage is strictly related to how high your Battle Power is.

Tenshinhan stating he'd have to go in a different direction with his training, if anything, would suggest using the Kaioken as a benchmark for his power would be redundant, especially when the Shin Kikoho was likely his answer to this.

Also, #19 and #20 initially confusing Yamcha's energy level as Goku would suggest that at bare minimum, the human trio are definitely above 8k, making the Kaioken argument even weaker.

The Kaio training probably yielded a bigger power up than the 3 years though. Kaio himself said about 5 months with him equals 1,000 years on Earth.
Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P2.4
Kaio: “Training here on this planet with me for 158 days…is as valuable as you training several thousand years on Earth.”

The statement seems to be contradicted quite a lot throughout the series. We're not given much of a reason to suggest Yardrat was much different from Earth's climate, yet Goku still gained significant power there even when busy learning Shunkan Ido. Piccolo is implied to have reached Vegeta's level by the time of Mecha Freeza's arrival despite the fact that solo Earth training shouldn't do much for him at this point.

Also as you mentioned, the humans could be in the millions due to Gero's radar. Even assuming that is a non-factor due to contradictions, them showing up still suggests they at least have semi-relevance when Yamcha's attitude before and after getting fisted by Old Meng Gero ( ) shows he didn't come here planning to just be Galu's taxi service and the same applies more so for Ten when despite him not fully believing in Trunks' story, he was still cautious and aware of their individual uses to leave Chaozu behind.

Overall, I'd say there's more to suggest the humans being closer to the millions than only around Nappa tier by the time of the Cell Arc. Plot-based or not, having them not catch up to post-Kaio Piccolo after not only far longer on Kaio's planet and some extra months on Earth after that, but 3 years of training for the single goal of not being weak enough to die against a new threat and at least being of some use in accomplishing that would require a huge suspension of disbelief.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

but I would say even being > 5k or less can be seen as them mistaking Yamcha for Goku. Goku could surpress his power, like he did usually. Dr. Gero also said Goku wasn't likely to make gains like he did before because of his age.

I've been thinking that maybe Yamcha and Tenshinhan didn't even surpass Saiyan Saga Vegeta or Goku for some-time now.

 

[SSJ2]

There would be no need to call that a good source of energy then. They would just point out "this might be goku!", the comment focusing on their power level would be irrelevant.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

To be fair, Gero didn't expect Goku to have made huge gains after the Saiyan Arc and was astronomically stronger than that, so anything of superhuman levels could be seen as a good energy source compared to the norm contextually.

However, I'd definitely disagree with the idea of Yamcha having not surpassed the likes of Nappa when not only did he have a similar amount of time on Kaio's to Goku, but was far stronger than the latter when he arrived.

 

[SSJ2]

No, he's talking to me. But I've got no defense to give. People will think what they want. Piccolo's dingus has penetrated too deeply in the community for anyone to be able to smear his girth from their eyes.

OOOOOOOH.

I just saw this considering you posted at the exact instant I did. Very nice counter.

 

[GSM123]

Tenshinhan stating he'd have to go in a different direction with his training, if anything, would suggest using the Kaioken as a benchmark for his power would be redundant, especially when the Shin Kikoho was likely his answer to this.

Also, #19 and #20 initially confusing Yamcha's energy level as Goku would suggest that at bare minimum, the human trio are definitely above 8k, making the Kaioken argument even weaker.

He still admits he can't surpass Goku anyway and that he'd rather polish his techniques.

Keep in mind they don't walk around at full power (With Goku generally using a suppressed level of 5k), so not really.

The statement seems to be contradicted quite a lot throughout the series. We're not given much of a reason to suggest Yardrat was much different from Earth's climate, yet Goku still gained significant power there even when busy learning Shunkan Ido. Piccolo is implied to have reached Vegeta's level by the time of Mecha Freeza's arrival despite the fact that solo Earth training shouldn't do much for him at this point.

Who said he has to make gains at Yardrat? Keep in mind Saiyans grow stronger just by fighting tough fights as well, and Goku did come out from a tough fight with Freeza.

Did he really reach Vegeta's level though? He treats Vegeta the same way he treated Raditz or Tagoma here. I don't think there's much of a reason to take that statement seriously without a feat.

Also as you mentioned, the humans could be in the millions due to Gero's radar. Even assuming that is a non-factor due to contradictions, them showing up still suggests they at least have semi-relevance when Yamcha's attitude before and after getting fisted by Old Meng Gero ( ) shows he didn't come here planning to just be Galu's taxi service and the same applies more so for Ten when despite him not fully believing in Trunks' story, he was still cautious and aware of their individual uses to leave Chaozu behind.

Overall, I'd say there's more to suggest the humans being closer to the millions than only around Nappa tier by the time of the Cell Arc. Plot-based or not, having them not catch up to post-Kaio Piccolo after not only far longer on Kaio's planet and some extra months on Earth after that, but 3 years of training for the single goal of not being weak enough to die against a new threat and at least being of some use in accomplishing that would require a huge suspension of disbelief.

He didn't expect to fight the Androids hand to hand, though. The first thing Yamcha does is try to reach for help when the Androids find him.

Tenshinhan generally is cautious with Chaozu, though. Keep in mind he also wanted to leave Chaozu behind for the Saiyan fight as well.

 

[Pyro]

I'm not sure what exactly transpired, but I don't have a problem with people shitting the bed in the mid tens of thousands range. I just wasn't an advocate of them being 100,000+ just because Piccolo was, especially the dinguses arguing they achieved it in the same 6 day span he did (not that anyone on here is saying that, I hope). I don't have them hitting the millions in the Android Saga these days, so their Kaio gains would still far outweigh their 3 year training gains for me.

Pre-Kaio Turdshinhan: 1,800
Post-Kaio Turdshithan: 40,000
Emergency Freeza Tenshinhan: 50,000
Tech Saga Tenshinhan: 400,000

22x boost from Kaio, 8x boost from 3-year training.

And Piccolo would be over 10,000,000,000,000 by the Android Saga, heavily suppressing to less than 1% to give the enemies a chance not to choke on his huge donk.

 

[SSJ2]

Why are Piccolo and Goku so special? The humans were able to make equal gains to Piccolo in the training for the Saiyans. Suddenly when they go to Kaio’s planet, Piccolo becomes 1000x more efficient at training than them?

Your route is fine, but it seems minimalistic for the sake of it. I prefer giving credit where credit is due. A full year on that planet would not give them such pathetic gains compared to everyone else.

 

[Pyro]

Why are Piccolo and Goku so special? The humans were able to make equal gains to Piccolo in the training for the Saiyans. Suddenly when they go to Kaio’s planet, Piccolo becomes 1000x more efficient at training than them?

Your route is fine, but it seems minimalistic for the sake of it. I prefer giving credit where credit is due. A full year on that planet would not give them such pathetic gains compared to everyone else.

So you'd rather they all get bare minimum 12x stronger in 6 days and then an exorbitant amount stronger in the ensuing year, just like Piccolo?

Don't dismiss their methods of training. Piccolo was stuck with a meek Gohan that was good for nothing beyond his outbursts, and he clearly still couldn't willingly tap into that by the Saiyan battle. The humans were all somewhat near each other in power (the biggest gap being 30% between Ten and Yammy), all had each other to spar with (a noted good perk in training), and had training from a deity in Kami. Even using Daizenshuu numbers, Krillin is the only one that made equivalent gains to Piccolo, while Tenshinhan and especially Yamcha made inferior—yet they had superior training.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He still admits he can't surpass Goku anyway and that he'd rather polish his techniques.

I don't think that'd necessarily make Ten's words accurate. In context, Tenshithands thought they'd gather the Dragon Balls in only a few days and he'd be back to life then, hardly enough time to learn the Kaioken or realistically reach Goku's level with the same training Galu did for months.

Keep in mind they don't walk around at full power (With Goku generally using a suppressed level of 5k), so not really.

Debatable. The levels at the Start of Z for Weighted Goku/Piccolo, Kuririn, Roshi, Tenshithands and Yamcha definitely were benchmarks for their full power, after all.

Who said he has to make gains at Yardrat? Keep in mind Saiyans grow stronger just by fighting tough fights as well, and Goku did come out from a tough fight with Freeza.

That would be a good alternative if expanded upon, though we aren't given much indication that was the case. Shitty writing or not, the Zenkai boosts that a Saiyan got from near death or a tough fight seemed to get progressively greater as time went on for Goku, Vegeta and Gohan with Vegeta saying what he got wasn't a standard increase. The boost from the Freeza fight should've been a lot greater if that were the case. From both a narrative and in-universe perspective, Goku and Vegeta's Zenkais on Namek were definitely suggested to be their last usage of that Saiyan trait.

Did he really reach Vegeta's level though? He treats Vegeta the same way he treated Raditz or Tagoma here. I don't think there's much of a reason to take that statement seriously without a feat.

Piccolo wasn't fully aware of those foe's abilities when he acted confident against them, whereas he's fully aware of what Vegeta is capable of and was of awe at his capabilities on Namek.

He didn't expect to fight the Androids hand to hand, though. The first thing Yamcha does is try to reach for help when the Androids find him.

Well yeah. He's not on the level of taking SSJ tiers on in a 2 V 1 situation no less. That's a far different situation from him being able to play some level of support role, of which would be impossible if he wasn't at least in the millions.

Tenshinhan generally is cautious with Chaozu, though. Keep in mind he also wanted to leave Chaozu behind for the Saiyan fight as well.

Chaozu was not only far weaker than the rest of the active human fighters both then and here, but couldn't be revived again by Earth's Dragon Balls. At this point, however, the latter risk isn't as prevalent as Chaozu's death would only require Kaio finding New Namek and the gang going on another space trip once they win. Also during the Saiyan Arc, Ten had reached a level that surpassed Raditz and was far above any other enemy power he was aware of at the time. That's far different from in the Cell Arc where he's already seen what power Freeza is capable of wielding with ease and what a Super Saiyan is capable of.

 

[SSJ2]

Why are Piccolo and Goku so special? The humans were able to make equal gains to Piccolo in the training for the Saiyans. Suddenly when they go to Kaio’s planet, Piccolo becomes 1000x more efficient at training than them?

Your route is fine, but it seems minimalistic for the sake of it. I prefer giving credit where credit is due. A full year on that planet would not give them such pathetic gains compared to everyone else.

So you'd rather they all get bare minimum 12x stronger in 6 days and then an exorbitant amount stronger in the ensuing year, just like Piccolo?

Don't dismiss their methods of training. Piccolo was stuck with a meek Gohan that was good for nothing beyond his outbursts, and he clearly still couldn't willingly tap into that by the Saiyan battle. The humans were all somewhat near each other in power (the biggest gap being 30% between Ten and Yammy), all had each other to spar with (a noted good perk in training), and had training from a deity in Kami. Even using Daizenshuu numbers, Krillin is the only one that made equivalent gains to Piccolo, while Tenshinhan and especially Yamcha made inferior—yet they had superior training.

The 6 days isn’t relevant to me. What is relevant is where they finished at the end of a full year of training. I think they make consistent progression during the year, but as their power levels grow it obviously becomes more exponential. Not to mention I find it likely that they were sparring there which generally yields significant gains.

Piccolo still had 6 months of training on his own.. And I wouldn’t say that about Gohan. He seemed to be restricting Piccolo’s training at first, but there is a scene of them sparring and it certainly doesn’t look like Gohan would be holding him back very much.. At the end of the training Piccolo was very confident in Gohan’s power and abilities, so I don’t view him as a deadweight here.

Also those numbers are arguable.

Yamcha was 177 at BoZ right? He is superior to the Saibaman. I have have him at 1380, yielding just under an 8x gain. Piccolo went from 408 to barely over 2000 in my books, an inferior gain.. I don’t see any evidence to show that one is drastically superior to the next when it comes to training. Sure, Piccolo might be somewhat superior, but nowhere is he implied to be the only one capable of making large gains.

 

[Pyro]

So Piccolo had a decent sparring partner under no special circumstances and made comparable gains to guys who trained under a god and also had sparring partners. That still makes the humans look less impressive.

Also, I'm not sure which panel you're referring to. I just looked over the entire training portion and the only time Piccolo and Gohan engage, Piccolo is swatting Gohan away like he's nothing. No visible effort, no statement of effort, no sweating, just indifference to Gohan's attempts. That doesn't seem like Gohan is giving Piccolo a good workout to me.

 

[SSJ2]

First panel Piccolo is clearing exerting effort against Gohan. Second page shows both of them huffing and puffing in combat position. They were sparring..

“Less impressive”

Never argued against that. Simply that the discrepancy is not of huge magnitude as you are suggesting. They both made similar gains if you evaluate the situation critically. The humans sparred for ~6 months and made larger gains. Piccolo gained solo for 6 months, then trained Gohan from scratch until he was eventually able to deduce that Gohan’s own power exceeds his own when he puts his mind to it. Through that he made inferior gains to the humans. It all levels out from what I can see.

 

[Pyro]

OK, I understand your position. Still don't agree at all, but I see why you'd think that.

 

[SSJ2]

That’s fine.