In real life, how much time would Roshi spend in jail if he were convicted for all the inappropriate things he's done?
- Thread starter Hector
- Start date
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 856
They say time is money. Speak with your wallet, and your time as well. Don't engage with things you don't like. Don't buy it and sont
If other people engage with things you don't like and you think it's a societal problem, bring it to your politicians or get elected to make the change yourself.
I'm a bit libertarian I guess.
If media companies are producing content that you disagree with, become a billionaire, buy them out, and destroy all their content that you don't like lol. And if people are hoarding copies of the old stuff then hire people to buy them up and destroy them too. Free market libertarian capitalism baby.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,407
I've specifically talked about using sexual harassment in comedic ang gag-ish ways, which takes away the seriousness of the act, done in mangas, many of which is done towards underaged character, which is a problem and fucked up. When it's treated seriously and the act is shown in the show as disturbing, then I think it's ok to be depicted, like in Berserk, as long as there's an 18+ censorship for the manga (not like ppl followed it anyways). In regards to irl movies though, then I already think an actual minor shouldn't be shown explicit sex scenes, even if it's shown under a serious issue, by having suggestive scenes involving the underaged actress, period. Like Leon the Professional, which made movie maker reflect upon the way underaged character are sexualized even in non- explicit ways... As they are underaged. If it's shown in a way that the it doesn't expose the underaged kid in anyway by showing it, the underaged actress appears merely to talk about the abuse she went through without at any time showing anything explicit, then I think modern movie makers see it as ok to show.
Basically, I don't think irl movies should showcase, even if done under a serious means, sexualization of teenagers by showing it more explicitly. They are teenagers so no movie should expose their bodies, even if it's done seriously, at all, period. If movies want to show the seriousness of the act, then merely refer to it happening without exposing the actual actress. That should really go without saying, they are minors, they shouldn't have their bodies exposed on media at all.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 30,973
The actress herself wasn't underage or the filmmakers would all go to jail for distributing and filming child porn. I'm saying that in-universe the character she played was a minor, and it was described as an act that could land the older man she had sex with in prison.
I don't really see the point in censoring shit that targets minors like shonen or borderline seinen mangas anyways. It's free artistic expression, the less barriers there are to freedom of expression, the better. Of course I wouldn't support a 9 year old being raped being shown even in illustrated comics but if the children have more or less close to adult bodies and obscene sex acts aren't encouraged I see no reason to censor it. If that type of thing turns you off personally, just don't buy the comics. Even in gag contexts peeping is shown to be something that's morally wrong (hence, the males who do it try not to get caught) and they're usually assaulted by the females afterward anyway.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,407
Idk why you're raising the point in your first paragraph @ me when I've specifically cited a movie in which the actress was 13 years old and that the sexualization, although obviously not explicit as they can't show it explicitly for obvious reasons, but the mere suggestion of some sort of romantic platonic love she projected with the protagonist already led to bad consequences and harassment when she was a minor after the movie was done. That was the context I was speaking of, answering to Wolf that portraying underaged characters in movies, even if the point isn't done in a gag-ish way like Dragon Ball or Kingdom, while maybe acceptable on mangas like Aku no Hana (which I think is totally ok there), shouldn't be acceptable in movies where the characters are actual irl underaged girls. THAT was the context I was talking about. You brought up an entire different scenario which is just irrelevant to the point/parallel I drew between teenagers sexualization when treated in serious ways in mangas vs in movies, the latter of which I cited Leon the Professional where the actress was a minor.
Free artistic expression shall meet and reflect upon on what may perpetuate harmful stereotypes. Based on your answers I don't know what you argue should not be censored as you seem, based on the first paragraph, to have a misconception on what I was truly in for not being shown, not being portrayed in mangas as you brought up an example that wasn't relevant to the movie and scenario I mentioned, so you and I may not even disagree with on what I think should not be shown in mangas. What I don't support is clearly underaged girls in mangas being sexualized by older men in gag-ish ways, which takes the seriousness of the issue by transforming it in an intended to be casual and funny scene. It's not what "if it turns you off, the don't buy" stuff, it's what may perpetuate and take away the seriousness of acts such as joking around groping minors by it being portrayed in a way that the audience sees as funny and not an actual serious thing (speaking of mangas). And that would extend to other things not only related to minors too, like unwanted ass touch on women being treated in a comedic way... Because if treated that way, even when there are consequences to the one who does it by being punched by the woman, the build up of the scene is intended to be funny, which, no matter if the one doing it faced consequences, the act itself is seen as funny and a light moment, which, again, trivializes the issue. You can have all the artistic freedom you want but you may also be aware of how the freedom you have may affect how serious irl acts may shape people's perceptions on it, which is an obligation artists should also have.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 30,973
I've had Wolf's tl;dr writing irascible ass on ignore for a while now so I couldn't read his posts as ones you were replying to. Anyway, in the case of the 16 year old girl humping a grown man thing I was addressing the scenario I presented, that of a Netflix show (Californication to be exact) sporting that scenario but in no way presenting it as something that was to be condoned.
The problem with censoring anything is that it opens more doors for tamer and tamer stuff to get censored. We saw how easily PC, something that began on causes fairly noble like replacing negro with black as the preferred term out of the former word's callback to times of black submission and oppression, became something of a dumbassed cult what with Biden trying to cut funding for universities that won't let trans women with PENISES AND BALLS like Lia Thompson playing in women's sports. Or Twitter's censorship and liberal bias getting so bad that Elon Musk (who used to be considered left) bought it to dial down the leftist retardation. Once we start censoring freedom of expression in juvenile shows it won't be long before we reach levels of the regressive left and/or Arab countries' standards of what constitutes lewd material. Japan's one of the most liberal countries in regards to nudity, and even there full blown sex isn't tolerated in shonen manga and anime. There're already guidelines good enough, and they've actually gotten MORE strict even in Japan what with toplessness and graphic violence not being allowed in primetime shows like OP and DB anymore. (And being largely absent from shonen manga too, though the last shonen manga I've seen that showed full frontal nudity was Garden of Eden from like a decade ago so Shonen Magazine etc. might be lenient on that)
To censor much, much further right down to not allowing comical tropes like peeping toms to be featured in children's media anymore would be too drastic, and again I reiterate, can open room for further censorship that borders on zealotry. We already see it in the West all the time with something innocuous and unracist as Friends or even Avatar: The Last Airbender getting called out for sexism and homophobia/transphobia and shit, censorship of any kind shouldn't be encouraged except in extreme cases. You almost remind me of P123 trying to censor my server according to those carebear Discord guidelines and threatening to report servers for using words like retarded. There are already strict laws on sexualization of minors in media in the West, and liberal countries like Australia and Britain take it way too far. That type of infringement on freedom of expression is unAmerican and censorship of speech (while a bit of a different context) has already gotten so bad that people fear death threats for publishing studies that go against leftist status quo (which I talked about on Discord). I see little reason to take it even further and go ahead and take down mangas because of scenes with a few naked teenagers.
And I say that as someone who finds the image of prepubescent nude girls being shown to be pretty repulsive. But if they're not directly involved in sex acts and it's relevant to the movie or manga or whatever's message, I'm all for it being allowed. We take standards you're presenting just a little bit farther and movies like Bring It On or shows like Even Stevens won't be allowed anymore and that's just gay.
The problem with censoring anything is that it opens more doors for tamer and tamer stuff to get censored. We saw how easily PC, something that began on causes fairly noble like replacing negro with black as the preferred term out of the former word's callback to times of black submission and oppression, became something of a dumbassed cult what with Biden trying to cut funding for universities that won't let trans women with PENISES AND BALLS like Lia Thompson playing in women's sports. Or Twitter's censorship and liberal bias getting so bad that Elon Musk (who used to be considered left) bought it to dial down the leftist retardation. Once we start censoring freedom of expression in juvenile shows it won't be long before we reach levels of the regressive left and/or Arab countries' standards of what constitutes lewd material. Japan's one of the most liberal countries in regards to nudity, and even there full blown sex isn't tolerated in shonen manga and anime. There're already guidelines good enough, and they've actually gotten MORE strict even in Japan what with toplessness and graphic violence not being allowed in primetime shows like OP and DB anymore. (And being largely absent from shonen manga too, though the last shonen manga I've seen that showed full frontal nudity was Garden of Eden from like a decade ago so Shonen Magazine etc. might be lenient on that)
To censor much, much further right down to not allowing comical tropes like peeping toms to be featured in children's media anymore would be too drastic, and again I reiterate, can open room for further censorship that borders on zealotry. We already see it in the West all the time with something innocuous and unracist as Friends or even Avatar: The Last Airbender getting called out for sexism and homophobia/transphobia and shit, censorship of any kind shouldn't be encouraged except in extreme cases. You almost remind me of P123 trying to censor my server according to those carebear Discord guidelines and threatening to report servers for using words like retarded. There are already strict laws on sexualization of minors in media in the West, and liberal countries like Australia and Britain take it way too far. That type of infringement on freedom of expression is unAmerican and censorship of speech (while a bit of a different context) has already gotten so bad that people fear death threats for publishing studies that go against leftist status quo (which I talked about on Discord). I see little reason to take it even further and go ahead and take down mangas because of scenes with a few naked teenagers.
And I say that as someone who finds the image of prepubescent nude girls being shown to be pretty repulsive. But if they're not directly involved in sex acts and it's relevant to the movie or manga or whatever's message, I'm all for it being allowed. We take standards you're presenting just a little bit farther and movies like Bring It On or shows like Even Stevens won't be allowed anymore and that's just gay.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,407
Well, you're bringing Biden, Elon Musk, Twitter and all this stuff to a point I'm making about sexualization of minors and women in mangas in gag-ish ways, which is honestly going off on a tangent and at the same time, by saying that censoring one thing would lead to non-worthy being censored things being enacted, pretty much falling for the slippery slope fallacy. Basically "if we let the students retake this exam, then they'll push for retaking all exams and then they will take control of the course".
There's a considerable difference between censoring content that sexualizes minors and promotes harmful stereotypes or promotes lack of seriousness upon serious things, which carry ethical issues, from censoring all content that one may find questionable and then issuing censoring over every single thing. Censoring things to be more respectful and to be more wary, to draw awareness to real issues do not inevitably lead to "leftist retardation" or the taking off of artistic freedom.
It's true that every country has their own cultural things and that one country may not see things with the same lens as other countries. But again, gag-ish humor involving minors, treated in a made to be funny way, is universally sensitive due to their potential issues... It's not a reflection of "leftist mentality" but rather a reflection on the well being of minors and groups prone to sexual harassment... Laws and guidelines that have a saying on the sexualization of minors in media are there to prevent exploitation and harm, not to stifle artistic freedom indiscriminately. Besides, citing the changes in Japanese guidelines that have become stricter without going down what you may call overzealous censorship shows that it's possible to regulate content without it leading to extreme suppression. It pretty much falls into slippery slope fallacy because it disagrees with the notion of censoring a potential harmful thing by projecting that such act may give pathways to further things being unjustifiably censored, since there is a difference between reasonable content guidelines meant to protect vulnerable groups and unwarranted censorship that blocks freedom. While it's true that there should be awareness and critical thinking against over-censorship, it is equally important to avoid the slippery slope fallacy that presents censorship as an all-or-nothing scenario by bringing in hypotheticals when the matter is centered around an important issue. By that view, legit fights shouldn't be pursued since it may give freedom to empowering the one being harmed and making them take extreme actions... That just isn't the way a critical scenario of a media aspect should be analysed at all imo.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 30,973
Because society has grown more sensitive after the 2000s, and censorship has gone way up in turn. Games like Fire Emblem, T-rated games, did not use to get censored to the point that bikini butt was covered by curtains when ESRB used to translate far more sexually objectionable games like Dragon Quest. A sizable portion of Huffington Post and Twitter/Tumblr have been people complaining about female sexualization, while in the same breath never making issues with male sexualization. I calls it as I sees it, because SJWs have definitely made content aimed at teenagers more restrictive.
The fact that one of the most sexually liberal countries in the world is censoring stuff shows we are headed toward more censorship. I'm not going to deflate that unbecoming wall of text but I will simply say this: people these days buy manga over comics far more than before precisely because the Japanese are relatively free from SJW influence and stringent western censorship standards and forced diversity. SJWs, despite being a minority, have proven themselves to be large enough of an influence as to ruin franchises like Star Wars and Terminator with their PCness, and things about 1/100th as serious as the Hot Coffee Mod in GTA draw controversy these days. There's been attempts to ban pornography altogether in the UK and to lesser extent Australia.
All of this is stupid, because anyone whose IQ isn't in the 70s range knows for a fact that sexual harassment and violations of privacy can land someone in jail. These comics and shows are an escape for teenagers, and to censor them unnecessarily because they make light of high school aged nudity is bullshit. The average girl loses her virginity at the age of 16. There's no need to act like teenagers don't have the basic common sense to not peep and get themselves expelled from schools, your argument comes off eerily similar to that whole video games make people violent fallacy.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,407
You're going off in a tangent bringing many things when the matter being discussed is about proper portrayal of minors in mangas. No need to bring SJW stuff, games like Fire Emblem. And I'd even wonder.... Do you and people in general read mangas like OP, Kingdom, wanting to see the fights, the clashing of philosophies, the world building, the different intentions and approaches to "an ideal world" or are they in for sexual jokes taken lightly with minors (some even younger than 16) or women in general? If people are in there for the latter or because mangas don't bend to SJW agenda as you put it and not for the story value, which goes independent on the specifics things I drew a line on what I think should be cut off from mangas, then that'd be surely a demonstration of a 70- IQ... Not someone who sees true worth in stories. And if you don't care and find showing it disgusting, what's keeping you arguing against it being cutoff? There's really no reason to... Other than fearing things might go astray which, again, is a slippery slope because things need to be analysed independently and on the possible harm it causes, not on hypotheticals on what it may also lead to be censored. Nevermind that the focus was on sexualizing minors in a comedic way, devoid of any reflection... That was the point. As for stories like Aku no Hana, the theme was shown under a serious lens and there was no sexualization being treated lightly, in off moments. And I don't know whether there was explicit underaged nudity there, and if nudity of teenagers in mangas should be totally cut off no matter the seriousness in which such is taken, then I dunno. Berserk, for example... Charlotte was 16 years old. I don't think those scenes should be censored in the sense of being prevented to even being drawn... Only making it 18+ (which doesn't matter anyways). Although again, what I said about movies is when underaged actress are used, of course explicit content not being ever allowed to show, I wouldn't stand up not even for suggestions of things that may sexualize them in some way, even if as implicit as possible, because they are irl teens, period. A series like Sex Education though... That'd fall in line with the example you brought, I guess, where all the characters are above 18, of course.
Dragging in everything from video game controversies to gender politics is a smokescreen from the point being discussed. Stick to the point. We're discussing manga and minors depiction in some few scenes, not launching a broadside against every cultural battle of the last decade. Besides, no one's saying manga turns readers into villains. But, you can't ignore that it's demonstrably that media shapes attitudes, especially in young minds. It's not about a direct cause-and-effect like argued in violent video games making ppl killers; it's about the bigger picture and the vibes scenes as those are putting out there. Violence is already depicted in a very cartoon-ish way, in a over ridiculous way that people can look at it as a total detachment from reality. There's no such a line when kids are being joked sexually and humor being drawn from it, which is way more real than cartoon-ish way violence is portrayed.
If violence, when sexual harassments targets a specific group mostly, is done to address issues as black people suffering in the slavery, it'll be treated with the seriousness it warrants, like Django Unchained... No one would be laughing in the theaters at those scenes because that was a violence systematically carried towards a race and that isn't detached from reality... Which is different from video games and cartoon-ish violence, which doesn't bring in over and over torture, gore and sadism in violence in games and medias containing it or when it does it gets treated under a serious tune where discomfort from the normal audience is visible.
Violence in games like GTA is often fantastical and clearly detached from reality, presented in a way that most people recognize as fictional. Sexual jokes, especially those targeting or involving minors, can very well blur the lines between acceptable and unacceptable behavior in real-life contexts, which is more harmful because it has more means to shape one's perception, as mentioned above. They can't be all brought together under the same "they recognize this as wrong, so this and this should also go in line and done".
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 30,973
It isn't a smokescreen, it's very relevant to the topic of increased censorship as you're vouching for that very same thing, censorship of things you find objectionable.
Schools already punish students severely even for making sex jokes and verbal harassment let alone trying to see women naked or committing sexual assault. Kids are old enough to know that that type of shit is wrong, which is why I think this whole "we have to shield minors against the horrors of sexualization" thing is way overblown. Do you think the average 14 year old actually thinks he won't get in trouble for violating the law and walking in on the women's restroom or changing room? I didn't even know certain words when I was 14 that I use daily now and I understood that doing perverted shit like that can get me in trouble. Bully and many other T-rated games straight up show that you get busted and possibly expelled for such behavior.
Again, nobody is getting sexually assaulted in these mangas, and when they are, it's raaaaaaaaarely not seen as a highly morally objectionable thing. Pedophiles and ephebophiles get beaten to death and shanked in prison. That's still the case in manga that deal with the matter seriously, and if it's a gag manga, it still abides to the constraints of the rules the magazine it's serialized in imposes.
GTA violence can easily be replicated in real life. I could in theory buy an assault rifle by driving to a Southern state and go on a killing spree at the local theater or open street. We know this is incredibly self-destructive behavior, which is why only the dregs of society resort to this type of thing.
Workplaces have strict guidelines on sexual harassment, which is why when I worked as a math tutor I never made inappropriate comments about my coworker's sexy curves. Kids still get in trouble just for that. In no way does sexual jokes in something as overblown as gag and ecchi manga blur the line between fictional settings and reality.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,407
The argument isn't about imposing blanket censorship based on subjective discomfort, yet again... it's about setting boundaries from content that could be harmful. Again, arbitrary censorship and responsible content regulation aimed at safeguarding vulnerable groups, especially when it involves the sexualization of minors, are two very different things and you only used a "this can lead to not worthy scenes being censored" fallacy.
No one denied that schools and legal systems enforce consequences for inappropriate behavior, this however doesn't negate the influence media can have on shaping attitudes and perceptions. The presence of rules and punishments is a response to these behaviors, not a preventative measure that eradicates the impulse or misunderstanding that leads to such actions in the first place. Plus, assuming that all minors are fully aware of the consequences of their actions isn't true because the process of cognitive and ethical development is a complex one. While many may understand that certain actions are wrong, continuous exposure to media that trivializes or normalizes inappropriate behavior can blur these boundaries, can lead to desensitization or misunderstanding of the seriousness of such actions.
The portrayal of consequences in media, such as getting "busted" in video games, does not, at all, translate to an understanding of real-world consequences. Fictional narratives often simplify or glamorize situations, and the takeaway for young audiences might not be the intended moral lesson but rather the excitement or humor of the scenario. It's already been acknowledged that serious consequences are depicted for egregious behaviors in some manga so your reiteration of that isn't part of the main point, since the concern lies with how gag or light-hearted manga handle sensitive topics. Even if a manga abides by the rules of its publication, it's worth discussing whether these rules sufficiently protect against content that could trivialize or normalize harmful attitudes towards minors... yet again, the discussion isn't about stifling creative expression or imposing unwarranted censorship but about advocating for a media landscape that considers what is right to be taken as serious and what is not and the potential implications of the latter.
Someone can technically replicate violent actions from GTA in real life, tho numerous studies have found little to no direct causation between video game violence and real-life violence, which fails to account for the societal, psychological, and individual factors that lead to violent behavior. Moreover, the vast majority of gamers understand the boundary between game fiction and reality, thanks in part to societal norms and legal consequences that are deeply ingrained, though the influence of sexual content, especially in media targeted at or accessible by minors, is more subtle and pervasive than overt acts of violence... Sexual jokes or content in manga might not directly incite readers to commit acts of sexual harassment or assault, but they can contribute to shaping attitudes, normalizing disrespect, and diminishing the seriousness of consent, especially in impressionable minds, according to, also, many studies.
Plus, the way content is presented is something you didn't take into account, since in a game like GTA the consequences of violent actions are often immediate and clear, underscoring the fantasy and detachment from reality. In contrast, sexual content, particularly when played for laughs in gag manga, may not always portray the seriousness or consequences of inappropriate behavior, leading to a potential trivialization of such issues. Even if they get busted, the scene overall is already made for the laughs and for the comedic relief moment. Heck, the argument that "kids still get in trouble" for inappropriate comments or actions actually supports the need for responsible media portrayals, as it acknowledges that such behavior is problematic and subject to censure.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,407
Btw, what's the intention in arguing for old men making joke scenes about girls and minors being still kept up in mangas such an insistent thing, something that can't be censored? No one reads manga thinking or liking sick attitudes of jokes towards minors by older men so why are you so adamantly defending it not being censored? Really, you already said even in serious contexts you find teenagers bodies in nudity being displayed in mangas repulsive, so why are you on keeping up even light hearted, trivializing sexualization of minors in mangas? Does not click at all...
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2015
- Messages
- 9,979
- Age
- 31
Kenshi develop self-awareness challenge still failed.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2016
- Messages
- 237
If these things occurred in New York, Roshi could be charged with forcible touching (of an adult) under §130.52 of the New York Penal Code, which is a class A misdemeanor. If he ever touched an underaged character (I don't recall if he actually touched them), he could be charged with sexual abuse in the second degree under §130.60, which is also a class A misdemeanor.
Basically under a year in jail for each.
Basically under a year in jail for each.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 30,973
Because it ties into other frivolous censorship ideas like saying adult actresses shouldn't roleplay being schoolgirls in porn or some shit. I've never been a fan of censorship whether it be blood/gore, speech or lewd content (except in law breaking cases under federal laws like blatant CP).
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2015
- Messages
- 14,407
He touched Bulma but when Oolong was transformed into her.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2016
- Messages
- 237
Oh, yeah! Though, unfortunately, there's no charge for attempted sexual abuse. Since he did not, in fact, touch an underaged person (I don't know how it would work sith Oolong's age and species), that wouldn't stick.
Roshi skates by on that one.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2016
- Messages
- 237
Yeah. I know he definitely touched her right before Raditz showed up.
Pervy old man gag was attenpted to be funny. And honestly, back then, it was. Roshi was never hated for anything he did. I guess people didn't think too deep about it. I'm glad they ditched that in Super (at least, I can't recall a time he was out trying to touch girls).
I think it's fine to keep him pervy and trying to find younger girls as long as he doesn't touch them and as long as they're of age.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2023
- Messages
- 674
@The_Authority
You missed the part where Goku was trying
to recruit Tien for the TOP in DBS then.
Roshi was creeping more than usual on a girl named Yurin and it even made me uncomfortable.
Oh and the total burial of Tiens character
was a downer..
You missed the part where Goku was trying
to recruit Tien for the TOP in DBS then.
Roshi was creeping more than usual on a girl named Yurin and it even made me uncomfortable.
Oh and the total burial of Tiens character
was a downer..
