Initial Freeza vs Goku

[Power Level Guy]

Ok, I think I got this one all figured out. We talked about this in the past but here's the clarification.

Freeza seemed to use his "full power" to kick back Vegeta's Final Burst Cannon. Then, I believe he says he will start out gently beating up the Vegeta who had given up, so I think Freeza goes down from Full power to his initial level and proceeds to beat the crap out of Vegeta.

Goku arrives. I think Vegeta instantly recognizes that Goku is a beast. So this means Goku must be relevant to Freeza's full power right here, the power that kicked back the Final Burst Cannon. This Goku can deal with FP Freeza.

Ok, so Freeza using his initial power throws a kick at Goku. Goku easily dodges him. Freeza does not power up, instead of powering up, he resorts to using a ki amplified attack in the Death Beam. Goku deflects them all, proving that Goku was even stronger than Freeza expected. Then Vegeta states for Freeza not to take him lightly. Vegeta isn't aware of any power below Initial Freeza or above the Freeza who kicked the Final Burst Cannon.

So Vegeta is outright stating Goku > Initial Freeza = Taking it Lightly.

Then they fight each other and Freeza has a little advantage.

Then Freeza going no Hands is another level than that. Goku admits he has more in the tank as well.

Finally, I have the perfect understanding of this situation.

This was a hard one. But I think I got it down. Next, the whole Cell real speed mess. Lol. These two issues are like a plague.

 

[Hector]

Buu is the only plague.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Buu is the only plague.

Sure, but there are always specific issues that have not been fully understood This is one of them.

 

[SSJ2]

So what's your chain here?

Freeza (no hands) > Freeza (post death beams) > Goku (Vegeta's estimation) > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Freeza true speed > Freeza initial ?

 

[SSJ2]

@Power Level Guy you see my post? Is that the chain that you are describing or did I get it wrong?

 

[Power Level Guy]

So what's your chain here?

Freeza (no hands) > Freeza (post death beams) > Goku (Vegeta's estimation) > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Freeza true speed > Freeza initial ?

No.

Freeza (Kicking Back FBC) > Initial Freeza/Death Beam Freeza (Vs Goku)

 

[SSJ2]

Who in the world has ever contested that?

I'll literally write out what your post says.

Goku arrives. I think Vegeta instantly recognizes that Goku is a beast. So this means Goku must be relevant to Freeza's full power right here, the power that kicked back the Final Burst Cannon. This Goku can deal with FP Freeza.

Goku > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Initial Freeza

Then they fight each other and Freeza has a little advantage.

Freeza post death beams > Goku > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Initial Freeza

Then Freeza going no Hands is another level than that. Goku admits he has more in the tank as well.

Freeza no hands > Freeza post death beams > Goku > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Initial Freeza

 

[Power Level Guy]

Goku > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Initial Freeza

No,

Freeza (Kicking Back FBC) = Freeza Warm Up

Freeza Warmup >= Goku Warm Up > Freeza Initial

I'm saying Freeza takes Goku lightly and is not using his maximum effort against him initially.

Freeza post death beams > Goku > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Initial Freeza

No, Freeza (FBC) = Freeza (Post Death Deams) = Freeza Warm Up

Freeza no hands > Freeza post death beams > Goku > Freeza (kicking FBC) > Initial Freeza

Freeza No Hands > Goku FP > Freeza Warm Up >= Goku Warm Up > Freeza Initial

 

[SSJ2]

You may want to remake your post then to make that clear.

 

[Power Level Guy]

You may want to remake your post then to make that clear.

Which part is unclear?

 

[SSJ2]

Because first you say that initial Goku can take care of Freeza (kicking FBC) - which was Freeza's full power, then you say that Freeza had the advantage after the death beams, and then powered up further with no hands. It sounds like you were suggesting a new level used between the death beams and no hands Freeza.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Yes…

Freeza (No Hands) > Freeza (Post Death Beams) = Freeza (Kicking Back FBC)

 

[ahill1]

I think P is saying that Freeza showcased an initial level beyond initial true form Freeza vs Vegeta, both when being more serious in speed and when kicking the ball to the sky. So Freeza (vs Vegeta) > Freeza (initially) >= Vegeta

Then Freeza goes back to this initial level >= Vegeta when saying he'll take on Vegeta gently, a Vegeta who had already lost his will to fight. Thus, Freeza (little serious vs Vegeta when dealing with his attacks) >= Freeza (spanking Vegeta) = Freeza (initially ) >= Vegeta

Then Freeza uses this initial level, the one slightly beyond post Zenkai Vegeta to throw fists at Goku firstly but was quickly overwhelmed... And the fact Vegeta said for Freeza to get serious shows Freeza wasn't using the level he showed when kicking Vegeta's super attack back, which the story didn't hint at Vegeta knowing Freeza had more than that. Then, when warming up, Freeza want back to this level of big superiority display over Vegeta and fought evenly base Goku, although he had a slight edge.

The the non hands Freeza and the serious Goku were already another layer above the Freeza who kicked Vegeta's blast... Whether Goku used Kaioken there or no is still debatable to me. But basically:

3rd form Freeza : 2,000,000
Zenkai Vegeta : 3,000,000
[Initially] true form Freeza : 3,300,000
[vs Vegeta] true form Freeza : 4,400,000
[spanking Vegeta] Freeza : 3,300,000
[initially vs Goku] Freeza : 3,300,000
Goku : 4,200,000
[warming up] Freeza : 4,400,000
[Full power] Goku : 5,000,000
[no hands] Freeza : 5,600,000

I think something like this.

 

[Power Level Guy]

I think P is saying that Freeza showcased an initial level beyond initial true form Freeza vs Vegeta, both when being more serious in speed and when kicking the ball to the sky. So Freeza (vs Vegeta) > Freeza (initially) >= Vegeta

Then Freeza goes back to this initial level >= Vegeta when saying he'll take on Vegeta gently, a Vegeta who had already lost his will to fight. Thus, Freeza (little serious vs Vegeta when dealing with his attacks) >= Freeza (spanking Vegeta) = Freeza (initially ) >= Vegeta

Then Freeza uses this initial level, the one slightly beyond post Zenkai Vegeta to throw fists at Goku firstly but was quickly overwhelmed... And the fact Vegeta said for Freeza to get serious shows Freeza wasn't using the level he showed when kicking Vegeta's super attack back, which the story didn't hint at Vegeta knowing Freeza had more than that. Then, when warming up, Freeza want back to this level of big superiority display over Vegeta and fought evenly base Goku, although he had a slight edge.

The the non hands Freeza and the serious Goku were already another layer above the Freeza who kicked Vegeta's blast... Whether Goku used Kaioken there or no is still debatable to me. But basically:

3rd form Freeza : 2,000,000
Zenkai Vegeta : 3,000,000
[Initially] true form Freeza : 3,300,000
[vs Vegeta] true form Freeza : 4,400,000
[spanking Vegeta] Freeza : 3,300,000
[initially vs Goku] Freeza : 3,300,000
Goku : 4,200,000
[warming up] Freeza : 4,400,000
[Full power] Goku : 5,000,000
[no hands] Freeza : 5,600,000

I think something like this.

Wow, what a breakdown. Yes, you said it far better than I did. Thank you.

 

[SSJ2]

So I guess the last thing where is true speed Freeza factoring in here? He definitely seemed to take it up a huge notch when kicking back the blast, I can’t see those being the same levels.

 

[SSJ2]

I also still think it’s possible that Freeza went to his true speed level for the death beams. Freeza in his fourth form was literally untouchable to fodder like Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin. Goku literally smashing his face in should have been a pretty fast wake up call for the guy who is the strongest in the universe. I can totally see him upping his level there. It would still fit in with Vegeta saying not to take Goku lightly if his higher exertion level was >> true speed.

 

[ahill1]

It's possible, though I tend to see that Freeza using the same level of power his speed had when being a little serious after vanishing from Vegeta's vision field. He initially increased speed only imo as that was what he noticed and the thing that Vegeta was keeping up with him... And later on, after seeing Vegeta's powers were a threat too, with that huge blast possessing "everything Vegeta was able to", then Freeza likely brought his power up to the speed level used to blitz Vegeta and have his head rolling searching for him imo. It could be argued that Freeza's power there was even beyond the speed level he had, but I don't think that's necessary. His speed was so quick that even Vegeta himself couldn't see where Freeza was, so it would be hard to judge how quick Freeza really moved when even the strongest there couldn't see Freeza... The power displayed when kicking Vegeta's blast would be a closer feeling of that overall prowess considering they could sense the power that blast had, and then seeing Freeza redirecting that with "just a kick" gave them more or less of a ballpark of where he was...

... I think he could've increased his power upon seeing Goku could react quick enough and kick him with the beams. Still though, I think that his beam was overall a quicker attack than his usual movements and was overall harder to deflect given its nature, so he might have wished to test how Goku could deal with that type of attack firstly before using the level which made Vegeta realize how helpless he was. Goku proved in both instances to be too much for that initial level and then Freeza brought forth the level used to overwhelm Vegeta imo. May be a little slow of Freeza as he already used this level right after Vegeta followed him when Vegeta kept up with his speed after the first attack (then "not quite"), but I think all the legend of Vegeta being the likely SSJ and Vegeta himself saying he was the SSJ, plus Freeza having seen before Vegeta could react to his speed in both instances by pointing out where he was and saving Gohan... May have been reason enough for him to have already shown Vegeta how the SSJ he believed he was, amounted to nothing.

 

[SSJ2]

I don't see why Vegeta wouldn't have an accurate read on Freeza's abilities after he increased his speed. Also it seems incredibly strange for Freeza's speed to far outdo the Ki he was putting forth. This is basically the opposite of what is suggested that Cell did, except you can rationalize that better by Cell having more ki available to be able to increase his speed to match it. In this case we are saying that Freeza's ki remained only slightly ahead of Vegeta, yet his speed was somehow light years ahead of that. How is Freeza producing that speed without the power to use it?

Either way, Vegeta was still expecting something from his blast despite already having his ego shattered by true speed Freeza.

 

[ahill1]

I don't see why Vegeta wouldn't have an accurate read on Freeza's abilities after he increased his speed. Also it seems incredibly strange for Freeza's speed to far outdo the Ki he was putting forth. This is basically the opposite of what is suggested that Cell did, except you can rationalize that better by Cell having more ki available to be able to increase his speed to match it. In this case we are saying that Freeza's ki remained only slightly ahead of Vegeta, yet his speed was somehow light years ahead of that. How is Freeza producing that speed without the power to use it?

Either way, Vegeta was still expecting something from his blast despite already having his ego shattered by true speed Freeza.

Well, he was blitzed badly by Freeza, but still didn't see how fast he moved besides just knowing it was in a pace he couldn't even see. I think that's different from knowing how fast it is besides "I can't see him at all". As for Freeza, I see it similarly as Cell... Cell stated "I'll get serious, in speed only". That to me tells he didn't get serious in power, only in speed. If he were already serious in power, it'd be better worded out as "I'll get serious in speed as well", nor separate speed as the only thing he'd get serious in, I'd say. I don't exactly know how they'd increase speed only without increasing their overall chi, maybe chi can encompass both the speed part which is used to move around and the battle power used to focus the overall chi increase in hitting stronger as well, while some characters can control it enough to make one attribute above the other without necessarily increasing the strength. It's tough to explain the mechanics behind it as DB was never in depth with how chi works. I just think Vegeta may have estimated based on Freeza's speed far surpassing him that his actual power would also far surpass him... Only he didn't think it'd be by this much, if it makes sense... And then Freeza showed how much the power up to his speed increase outclassed Vegeta in a way he didn't imagine so.

 

[SSJ2]

That's a fair enough explanation.

I guess my problem is how we are now joining multiple levels together - in both the Freeza and Cell case. How are we quantifying Freeza's abilities when his speed rises but his power does not? Because clearly that is a higher level than his initial self, and then if his power rose to match it to kick back the blast, that is still implying yet another level.

It's still 3 levels no matter how you look at it, whether a scouter would display it as such or not.