Is Dabura's power underrated? An analysis

[SSJ2]

We are debating the manga here though. The whole point is to entertain both sides of the discussion based on what we see in the manga.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ2, does the problem come from the fact it's a anime guidebook or simply because it's a guidebook? If it's the former, then I believe it's worth pointing out the filler segments of the battle consists mostly of Gohan and Dabra trading blows evenly, so if anything "clearly inferior strength" would be a understatement when translating the entry to the manga.

If it's the later, then I don't see your point. Both are arguing things based on pure manga info: You say Gohan outmuscled Dabra, CC says Dabra held back. The guidebook just acts as the tie breaker, as it should.

 

[SSJ2]

I don’t consider the Dragon Box relevant to the manga at all. The Daizenshuu is already a stretch at time, let alone an episode summary for the anime.

Already stated my position here. CC and I have been discussing the manga. Considering the anime and manga are two different things, an episode summary for one release of the anime shouldn’t hold any weight. There is no filler in the manga so a guide pertaining to the anime shouldn’t be relevant. If you want to use it then that’s fine, but we are discussing the manga.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ2, does the problem come from the fact it's a anime guidebook or simply because it's a guidebook? If it's the former, then I believe it's worth pointing out the filler segments of the battle consists mostly of Gohan and Dabra trading blows evenly, so if anything "clearly inferior strength" would be a understatement when translating the entry to the manga.

So did I. The anime literally just added a couple punches clashing, yet it was still clear who''s above who there. In fact I'd dare to say the entry is more accurate to the manga than to the anime.

 

[SSJ2]

Doesn't sound accurate to me. Imo Dabra is inferior to Gohan yes, but to use an word such as "clearly"? Nah. There is evidence on both sides.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd also add that for the anime, it's important to remember it added a filler segment of Base Gohan VS Dabura, so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that anime-wise this had some part to play in Gohan's stamina loss. Not only that, but the anime added a filler of Dabura meditating for a while in order to help refine his Ki, so using the anime to discuss the manga doesn't really work here when it adds several additional benefits to Dabura.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Dabura > Cell, fact

 

[SSJ2]

Dabura > Cell, fact

Maybe Larval Cell.

 

[ahill1]

Dabra > SPC ftw

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Doesn't sound accurate to me. Imo Dabra is inferior to Gohan yes, but to use an word such as "clearly"? Nah. There is evidence on both sides.

There is, otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist. The guide is simply giving a more objective view on the matter from people that actually worked in the series, you’d be hard pressed to justify a simple “Nah” here.

I'd also add that for the anime, it's important to remember it added a filler segment of Base Gohan VS Dabura, so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that anime-wise this had some part to play in Gohan's stamina loss. Not only that, but the anime added a filler of Dabura meditating for a while in order to help refine his Ki, so using the anime to discuss the manga doesn't really work here when it adds several additional benefits to Dabura.

Thus Base Gohan > Dabra > Super Perfect Cell > Dabra killing Kibito

But anyway, wouldn’t giving Dabra several benefits actually strengthen this claim? Dabra is still inferior in spite of all the anime based buffs.

Btw it’s possible Dabra just meditated to be able to use his true power, which happened to be the same power as his manga self.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It would strengthen it from an anime perspective, but weaken it from a manga perspective when the latter needed none of such buffs to hold an advantage against Gohan and severely outclass his stamina.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But the anime fight also shows them as even. If Gohan wasted stamina fighting in base and in hand to hand combat, so should Dabra.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Anime Dabura's meditation prior to the fight likely heavily improved his stamina.

 

[SSJ2]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

The same people responsible for some of the most atrocious, contradictory filler among any anime/manga I have witnessed? Yeah that's a hard pass for me. I'll continue to use my own brain to formulate my opinions.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

First of all, in regard to Gohan's state, I still support my SSJ1.5 theory; Gohan was in an intermediate state between SSJ1 and SSJ2 and his power was in the same range as FP Perfect Cell's.
As we saw in the fight, Dabura was exerting effort during the sword struggle and even huffed afterward. What made him feel confident was the difference in skill.
As for his statement to Babidi, what did you expect him to say to his master? 'I'm as strong as him or a little weaker, but I'll do my best'? It was only natural that he wanted Babidi to think well of him.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Anime Dabura's meditation prior to the fight likely heavily improved his stamina.

Just checked the anime, and a goon flat out says Dabra is meditating in order to focus and raise his Ki. Babidi also says Dabra will be going all out from the beginning (Which is backed up by manga scans Super Saiyan posted earlier). Though I do think you could argue it improved his stamina as well: If he's more well balanced and fighting with a calm head he can avoid unecessary movements that waste energy.

Still, in either version of the fight Dabra ends up a little winded up after the Sword struggle, and his better stamina can be justified with manga only events. Filler meditation or not Dabra does show himself a very skilled and collected fighter, retreating from hand to hand combat when outmatched by Gohan. We can say Gohan isn't half bad in hand to hand, but he's clearly struggling with Dabra's magic and lack of sensible Ki: He falls for the Zangouken, is hit by a fireball head on, struggles do dodge both spits (Fire and stone) and has even breaks Dabra's sword from the low ground (Though you could chalk it up to Dabra not watching enough RotS ). Basically Gohan's clear sloopiness cost him more energy against Dabra. And being a SSJ2 for the first in time in years wouldn't help...

Also CC I think you might have mentioned this already, but why can't Dabra's advantage be skill based?

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

The same people responsible for some of the most atrocious, contradictory filler among any anime/manga I have witnessed? Yeah that's a hard pass for me. I'll continue to use my own brain to formulate my opinions.

Spoiler

As we saw in the fight, Dabura was exerting effort during the sword struggle and even huffed afterward. What made him feel confident was the difference in skill.
As for his statement to Babidi, what did you expect him to say to his master? 'I'm as strong as him or a little weaker, but I'll do my best'? It was only natural that he wanted Babidi to think well of him.

Well he could have made his statement without acting like Gohan was trash; something like "Don't worry master. I've fought him before, and it's clear he can't win". Though Dabra does seem to be the arrogant type and he have never seem a humble Dabra, so I dunno.

 

[SSJ2]

K.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If he's more well balanced and fighting with a calm head he can avoid unecessary movements that waste energy.

That's a really good point. Even with the natural Ki control that comes from the form, Gohan's rustiness would lead to him performing a lot of wasted movements against an opponent that already has an edge against him, not to mention being the only one of the two to take a clean hit from a Ki blast in the fight.

and has even breaks Dabra's sword from the low ground (Though you could chalk it up to Dabra not watching enough RotS ).

Easily the most important factor.

And being a SSJ2 for the first in time in years wouldn't help...

So refined of a SS2 as to lack the lightning, more defined hair or constantly serious expression.

Also CC I think you might have mentioned this already, but why can't Dabra's advantage be skill based?

It can and is definitely where he holds an advantage, though the power creep of Z made it so that skill stopped being a stomp-level factor in battles if the two characters' Ki was close enough.

Well he could have made his statement without acting like Gohan was trash; something like "Don't worry master. I've fought him before, and it's clear he can't win". Though Dabra does seem to be the arrogant type and he have never seem a humble Dabra, so I dunno.

As I said before, it'd be a bit of a stretch to believe Dabura as that arrogant when faced with an opponent where skill was the only thing separating them and even the most arrogant characters in the series such as Freeza, Cell and post-absorptions Evil Boo have proven to have moments of clarity or being cautious of an opponent on or above their level.

That said, what do you make of Dabura still being composed under the assumption that Gohan was equal to him and he'd have to face two more opponents on his level or higher (with him even finding out both Goku and Vegeta are far superior to Gohan)? The idea to brainwash Vegeta didn't come to him until the second time Vegeta started ranting and, as we see when fighting Boo, it's not as though Dabura has the world's best poker face. It'd be highly questionable for him to still have much confidence in being able to take 2 more opponents if skill was the only thing separating him and Gohan by much and his spit was no longer a surprise tactic.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So refined of a SS2 as to lack the lightning, more defined hair or constantly serious expression.

That's what happen when you slack off for 7 years

It can and is definitely where he holds an advantage, though the power creep of Z made it so that skill stopped being a stomp-level factor in battles if the two characters' Ki was close enough.

Well, it quite depends. Skill is brought rather often in Z, and in this case it's zero skill vs very skilled (Dragon Books also call him a skilled fighter btw). It's not a stomping difference, but it's very akin to a bull vs tourero.

As I said before, it'd be a bit of a stretch to believe Dabura as that arrogant when faced with an opponent where skill was the only thing separating them and even the most arrogant characters in the series such as Freeza, Cell and post-absorptions Evil Boo have proven to have moments of clarity or being cautious of an opponent on or above their level.

Dabra did have a moment of cautiousness though. When Gohan fires his Kamehameha he actually takes Babidi and ducks out instead trying to swat it away.

That said, what do you make of Dabura still being composed under the assumption that Gohan was equal to him and he'd have to face two more opponents on his level or higher (with him even finding out both Goku and Vegeta are far superior to Gohan)? The idea to brainwash Vegeta didn't come to him until the second time Vegeta started ranting and, as we see when fighting Boo, it's not as though Dabura has the world's best poker face. It'd be highly questionable for him to still have much confidence in being able to take 2 more opponents if skill was the only thing separating him and Gohan by much and his spit was no longer a surprise tactic.

Dabra didn't take SSJ Goku's power seriously and wanted to fight all of them at once, so I don't think it would be a problem. Granted Gohan was stronger than he expected, but it's clear he'd eventually run out of gas and be killed, leaving only a Goku and Vegeta who haven't shown power surpassing Gohan's yet. It also even seems like Dabra started plotting taking Vegeta's soul from the beginning; he wouldn't have gone out of his way to hear his complaints otherwise.

Captain Cadaver

I'll respond to the post later if I gain the motivation.

Did you use your brains to formulate this one?

 

[SSJ2]

Failed attempt at trolling. Already made my position clear that I view an anime episode guide to be irrelevant to the manga. I never once said that uncontradicted guidebook entries pertaining to the manga should be discarded.