Is Dabura's power underrated? An analysis

GreatSaiyaman123

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Not like the anime fight makes Gohan swat away his fireball and slap him around though... The filler makes it pretty even in fact.

But anyway SSJ2, I also wanted to use this as an excuse to talk about Kili Meters a bit more. If you pay attention at :bitch's meter it goes clockwise when Gohan transforms at the Budokai. So SSJ Goku's power isn't even near the limit, it's the oppose: It's on the beginning of the scale.
 

Captain Cadaver

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Well, it quite depends. Skill is brought rather often in Z, and in this case it's zero skill vs very skilled (Dragon Books also call him a skilled fighter btw). It's not a stomping difference, but it's very akin to a bull vs tourero.
It is true that a few battles had skill make a gap far greater (Vegeta VS Dodoria/Base Zarbon), so I can get behind that and why Dabura would consider Gohan trash if not for when pretty big detail, Gohan getting his full Ki and stamina back through the Senzu. Even if not in stomping range, it would seem like a stretch to say Dabura doesn't have a noticeable lead on Gohan to be at the advantage in both potential rounds when there would still at least be some minor affect to his stamina. I'd say it still ought to be a lead on par with 18k Vegeta over KKx2 Goku.

Dabra did have a moment of cautiousness though. When Gohan fires his Kamehameha he actually takes Babidi and ducks out instead trying to swat it away.
The Kamehameha is kept consistent as an amplified attack, even if the amount fluctuates throughout the series. For instance, such a comparatively close event as Gohan VS Cell suggested FP Perfect Cell's Kamehameha wasn't something SS2 Gohan could simply take despite dominating him prior.
Even leaving that aside though, it was launched in a very close distance, by enough that Dabura had to make an instant decision. The difference in speed between tiers seems to vastly lower at this point in the series seeing as how the last major speedblitz feat for a relevant tier was SS2 Gohan snatching the senzu from Cell, so Dabura would still likely struggle to dodge it in such a small timeframe even if having a good lead.

Dabra didn't take SSJ Goku's power seriously and wanted to fight all of them at once, so I don't think it would be a problem. Granted Gohan was stronger than he expected, but it's clear he'd eventually run out of gas and be killed,
It's hard to imagine Gohan quickly losing stamina in SSJ with him having mastered the form, or Dabura having underestimated him when Goku was clearly putting forth his full Ki as a SSJ.

It's almost like the plot implies Gohan wasn't just using his SSJ form...

...

Nah, that can't be...:troll

leaving only a Goku and Vegeta who haven't shown power surpassing Gohan's yet.
Vegeta and Goku's comments made it pretty obvious to all those involved that both were a good deal above Gohan.

It also even seems like Dabra started plotting taking Vegeta's soul from the beginning; he wouldn't have gone out of his way to hear his complaints otherwise.
The framing and his reactions seem to suggest something more along the lines of Vegeta's first comment catching Dabura's interest, then the second outburst confirming Dabura's suspicions. I wouldn't say it suggests he had this plan thought out from the beginning of what we see of the fight.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:
If you pay attention at :bitch's meter it goes clockwise when Gohan transforms at the Budokai. So SSJ Goku's power isn't even near the limit, it's the oppose: It's on the beginning of the scale.
Lord :bitch's meter was most likely an older model though, given that it had a different design than the one Babidi uses (of which he requested for the biggest meter) and the Daizenshuu entry mentioning the older models can't read that high, not to mention it would make little sense to give the best stock to two disposable lackies expected to only succ a few humans. All this shows is that SS2 Gohan's kili would be significantly above 3k, which is a no-brainer.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Captain Cadaver said:
It is true that a few battles had skill make a gap far greater (Vegeta VS Dodoria/Base Zarbon), so I can get behind that and why Dabura would consider Gohan trash if not for when pretty big detail, Gohan getting his full Ki and stamina back through the Senzu. Even if not in stomping range, it would seem like a stretch to say Dabura doesn't have a noticeable lead on Gohan to be at the advantage in both potential rounds when there would still at least be some minor affect to his stamina. I'd say it still ought to be a lead on par with 18k Vegeta over KKx2 Goku.

Well Vegeta did say Gohan couldn't beat Freeza even if he were both immortal and stronger than him, so it wouldn't be the first time Gohan could manage to lose to someone weaker than him.

I think it'd be a even bigger stretch to say Gohan is inferior to Dabra in every aspect yet manages to not get wrecked. As Goku tells Vegeta, "I ain't like he's completely losing".

The Kamehameha is kept consistent as an amplified attack, even if the amount fluctuates throughout the series. For instance, such a comparatively close event as Gohan VS Cell suggested FP Perfect Cell's Kamehameha wasn't something SS2 Gohan could simply take despite dominating him prior.
Even leaving that aside though, it was launched in a very close distance, by enough that Dabura had to make an instant decision. The difference in speed between tiers seems to vastly lower at this point in the series seeing as how the last major speedblitz feat for a relevant tier was SS2 Gohan snatching the senzu from Cell, so Dabura would still likely struggle to dodge it in such a small timeframe even if having a good lead.

While that's true, Dabra doesn't have that intel on what a Kamehameha is. You could argue he measured by it's speed, but then it'd go against your own point of the distance requiring to make an instant decision. And if Dabra's mere instinct was to dodge rather than stand on his ground like many arrogant villains have done before speaks lots about where he stands.

Nah, that can't be...:troll

Actually, he was a SSJ2. But he just thought sparks are cringe after watching TROS and decided not to use them.

Vegeta and Goku's comments made it pretty obvious to all those involved that both were a good deal above Gohan.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”


Goku's doesn't, but Vegeta definitely does. He might also be implying Gohan should be capable of beating Dabra though.

The framing and his reactions seem to suggest something more along the lines of Vegeta's first comment catching Dabura's interest, then the second outburst confirming Dabura's suspicions. I wouldn't say it suggests he had this plan thought out from the beginning of what we see of the fight.

That's what I meant. It definitely catch Dabra's attention, but he wasn't sure of it until Vegeta's tantrum.

Lord :bitch's meter was most likely an older model though, given that it had a different design than the one Babidi uses (of which he requested for the biggest meter) and the Daizenshuu entry mentioning the older models can't read that high, not to mention it would make little sense to give the best stock to two disposable lackies expected to only succ a few humans. All this shows is that SS2 Gohan's kili would be significantly above 3k, which is a no-brainer.

CC, I just meant to say the Kili Meter works clockwise, the pointer going from left to right, and the pointer was to the left when Goku transformed. I was mistaken btw, the panel that shows the Kili Meter works like a clock is when :bitch measures Base Gohan.

ahill1 said:
Shut up you blue drunk money!

Go home Ahill, you're drunk.
 

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In any case, I place the power Gohan used against Dabura at PC level. So, supposing Dabura was holding back, I place him at Power Weighted PC level and assume that was the version of Cell Goku was talking about. SPC was close to SSJ2 Kid Gohan, who is still considered a powerhouse at this point, so it makes no sense for Goku to think little of Dabura if the latter is that strong.
 

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I find that not necessarily Goku used more than 50% of his power as SSJ against Yakon, he could perfectly have had the aura on, just to illuminate the battlefield.

But I agree that Dabura has at least the same power as Teen Gohan SSJ. Dabura not only speaks of Gohan as if it were garbage, but at least in the Anime, when Dabura confronts Majin Boo, Trunks mentions that Dabura's power is increasing. Also, if I remember correctly, Dabura fought better against Majin Boo than Gohan did against the latter.

Most likely, Dabura fought with a power relatively close to his maximum power against Teen Gohan and against Majin Boo, Dabura used all his power. So having Dabura comfortably stronger than Teen Gohan SSJ and that adding to his magical abilities are enough reasons for Dabura to easily defeat Teen Gohan SSJ.
 

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SIAD said:
I find that not necessarily Goku used more than 50% of his power as SSJ against Yakon, he could perfectly have had the aura on, just to illuminate the battlefield.
We've already seen that 50% isn't enough for him to create a visible aura though and has only displayed it after mastering the Super Saiyan state when going full power. Moreover, there's no real reason for him to be holding back upon his transformation, especially when he had to resort to SS2 in order to overload Yakon and never made comment on increasing the amount of Ki within his SSJ form.

Also, if I remember correctly, Dabura fought better against Majin Boo than Gohan did against the latter.
If anything, Gohan endured a lot more from Boo. Dabura got severely damaged by one punch from Boo before being kicked away, hit him with a surprise spear attack and then got turned into a cookie. Meanwhile, Gohan took a solid punch from Boo and survived being blasted away by a large Ki blast.
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
SIAD said:
I find that not necessarily Goku used more than 50% of his power as SSJ against Yakon, he could perfectly have had the aura on, just to illuminate the battlefield.
We've already seen that 50% isn't enough for him to create a visible aura though and has only displayed it after mastering the Super Saiyan state when going full power. Moreover, there's no real reason for him to be holding back upon his transformation, especially when he had to resort to SS2 in order to overload Yakon and never made comment on increasing the amount of Ki within his SSJ form.

Also, if I remember correctly, Dabura fought better against Majin Boo than Gohan did against the latter.
If anything, Gohan endured a lot more from Boo. Dabura got severely damaged by one punch from Boo before being kicked away, hit him with a surprise spear attack and then got turned into a cookie. Meanwhile, Gohan took a solid punch from Boo and survived being blasted away by a large Ki blast.

In Anime Dabura he says he is not afraid to face opponents who have 3,000 or 4,000 kiris, after the fight between Goku vs Yakon or is it a bad translation?
 

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He does state this to my knowledge, which supports this. However, his anime self should be treat separately to the manga due to noticeable differences in both versions, such as Anime Gohan implying he got a Zenkai from Kibito and Anime Dabura meditating to heighten his Ki before the fight.
 

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Without a doubt, Dabura is way stronger than SPC.

As for Future Dabura, he is far more powerful than Present Dabura.

Look at this link that I just created CC, here I explain how powerful Future Trunks is when taking out the Z Sword and Future Dabura:

http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17693
 

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Toriyama consistently portrayed Gohan's traits as identical to his SSJ1 self from the Budokai, so Dabra is below SSJ2 tier. Clear cut and simple
 

SSJ2

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Ya but SSJ Majin Vegeta had lightning for 1 panel as did Vegetto so clearly lighting and a SSJ2 aura =/= SSJ2.
 

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Ya but SSJ Majin Vegeta had lightning for 1 panel as did Vegetto so clearly lighting and a SSJ2 aura =/= SSJ2.
Exception not the rule, plus those were 1 off panels. Won't convince the DAIZENSHUU AND MY HEADCANON SAYS HE WAS SSJ2 autists tho
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Then why is it called a SSJ2 aura?

The whole notion of each form having their own separated auras comes from guidebooks. Toriyama drew SSJ2 Kid Gohan without sparks for pages on end, would occasionally drops the sparks on Goku and Vegeta, and gave SSJ1 sparks on Neko Majin Z.
 

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Hm, I wonder. Maybe because it consistently features the same aura and lightning in almost every instance in the manga. Tough question.
 

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Because every SSJ2 in existence has had all the characteristics of one, we wouldn't call that filler inbetween SSJ and SSJ2 Gohan with the SSJ hair who was having lightning as a sign of nearly unlocking SSJ2 an SSJ2 Gohan, would we? No lightning, typical lesser aura of a level 1 Saiyan means Gohan wasn't SSJ2. Just like he clearly wasn't SSJ2 when he was getting mad that Lord Spopovich was raping Videl, only SSJ2 after he decided to go beyond it in front of Kibito.

Toriyama also forgot what SSJ2 and SSJ3 were between the manga's completion and working on BoG, which most likely explains all the art he did of SSJ1s having lightning auras.
 
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