Is SSJ2> USSJ or vice versa?

[Ultimate Cell]

What do you guys think?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The only sources to have commented on it would be Super and El Manga Legendario, both of which go with Grade 3 > SS2 in raw power. Regardless of the reliability of these sources (such as the latter claiming Grade 3 is 10x SSJ), they're still the most we have to go on for the topic as far as hard evidence goes.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

The only sources to have commented on it would be Super and El Manga Legendario, both of which go with Grade 3 > SS2 in raw power. Regardless of the reliability of these sources (such as the latter claiming Grade 3 is 10x SSJ), they're still the most we have to go on for the topic as far as hard evidence goes.

I honestly feel ssj2 should be stronger since its the next phase of super saiyan rather than a subset like the grade forms.Did Trunks also use USSJ in the manga or was that anime only?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I honestly feel ssj2 should be stronger since its the next phase of super saiyan rather than a subset like the grade forms.

I wouldn't say that's necessary when considering Grade 3 is such a flawed form that it being stronger would still be overall pointless, not to mention its method of Ki weighting isn't something exclusive to just the SSJ state.

Did Trunks also use USSJ in the manga or was that anime only?

He went Grade 3 in both, though the anime added filler of him using a less muscular variant at first to fight evenly with Cell for a while before being stomped in the next episode when he buffed it up.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

I wouldn't say that's necessary when considering Grade 3 is such a flawed form that it being stronger would still be overall pointless, not to mention its method of Ki weighting isn't something exclusive to just the SSJ state.

He went Grade 3 in both, though the anime added filler of him using a less muscular variant at first to fight evenly with Cell for a while before being stomped in the next episode when he buffed it up.

I meant the dbs manga my bad.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

Speaking of Grade forms did Vegeta and Trunks use Grade 2 during the cell games or was that regular ssj?

 

[Southern Gothic]

I'd say USSJ>SSJ2 in terms of just potential for power. Theoretically, a Saiyan can just continually charge USSJ until his body gives out and that could allow him to pass the SSJ2 multiplayer. But as CC said, it just doesn't become practical in a battle.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I meant the dbs manga my bad.

Ah. He doesn't use Grade 3 in the Super manga, since the training between him and Vegeta wasn't shown and it obviously wasn't practical to use against Black/Zamasu.

Speaking of Grade forms did Vegeta and Trunks use Grade 2 during the cell games or was that regular ssj?

Seems to just be SSJ based on their muscle mass. They most likely decided to abandon Grade 2 entirely when considering its lesser stamina and not so huge power boost would've provided no difference against Cell and not be capable of soloing the Cell Juniors.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

Ah. He doesn't use Grade 3 in the Super manga, since the training between him and Vegeta wasn't shown and it obviously wasn't practical to use against Black/Zamasu.


Seems to just be SSJ based on their muscle mass. They most likely decided to abandon Grade 2 entirely when considering its lesser stamina and not so huge power boost would've provided no difference against Cell and not be capable of soloing the Cell Juniors.

Semi Suck cell was amazed at grade 2 Vegetas power though. Even after he powered to full power Vegeta still clowned him. Also was grade 2 even that stamina intensive? Trunks and Vegeta wasnt really shown being drained by it compared to grade 3.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It had a significant boost, sure, but not exactly impressive compared to the other SSJ forms. Had he used the form, not only would it have been ineffective against Cell, but it seems doubtful Trunks and Vegeta would be able to turn things around against all the Cell Juniors. It also seems quite telling that, despite being the no-nonsense type of fighter and not getting Vegeta's desire for a good fight later on, even Trunks was surprised at Vegeta going Grade 2 right away against Cell, suggesting it's not so suitable to use without an overwhelming edge in power over your opponents.
There should be some fair stamina drain to the form when considering even regular SSJ was noted to be quite draining in Ki compared to its mastered variant and Grade 2 functions under the same manner as Grade 3 but to a lesser extent.

 

[Pyro]

If they used Grade 2 at the Cell Games, the Cell Juniors would have ganged up on them and it would have turned into a long-winded battle, which is what Goku said was not where you wanted to use the Grade forms.

 

[SSJ2]

If they used Grade 2 at the Cell Games, the Cell Juniors would have ganged up on them and it would have turned into a long-winded battle, which is what Goku said was not where you wanted to use the Grade forms.

You'd think they'd be able to one shot them if serious. SSJ Vegeta was equal to initial Semi Cell and his Gr.2 form was enough to one shot even full power Semi Cell if he wanted to. With Piccolo and Galu there, there's no way in hell they'd be drawn into a long winded battle with the Jrs (unless Cell Jr. Sr. was there).

 

[Papasmurf]

You'd think they'd be able to one shot them if serious. SSJ Vegeta was equal to initial Semi Cell and his Gr.2 form was enough to one shot even full power Semi Cell if he wanted to. With Piccolo and Galu there, there's no way in hell they'd be drawn into a long winded battle with the Jrs (unless Cell Jr. Sr. was there).

There were seven Cell Jr.s as opposed to only four fighters who were on SSJ tier (and Galu was already weakened). The three Cell Jr.s that were manhandling the humans could just kill the three of them and then make it a 7 on 4 battle.

 

[SSJ2]

When you look at how Vegeta destroyed Dodoria and Cui with far smaller gaps, the number of Cell Jrs shouldn't really matter. Piccolo and Goku can at least stop them from all ganging up on Vegeta/Trunks from the start.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Even MSSJ at 50% is stronger than USSJ, let alone SSJ2.

 

[Papasmurf]

When you look at how Vegeta destroyed Dodoria and Cui with far smaller gaps, the number of Cell Jrs shouldn't really matter. Piccolo and Goku can at least stop them from all ganging up on Vegeta/Trunks from the start.

Either Grade 2's multiplier wanes further as you get close to SSJ mastery, the Cell Jr.s can buff themselves up like their father, or was just being

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Even MSSJ at 50% is stronger than USSJ, let alone SSJ2.

If looking at it in terms of 50% Goku VS Trunks, maybe. In terms of the forms in general, definitely not, seeing as how the Daizenshuu makes it pretty clear MSSJ is functionally no different from regular SSJ beyond better stamina and Ki fluctuation.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

When does the Daizenshuu say that?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Daizenshuu 7 places the forms in order of their evolution, but gives no section for Super Saiyan Full Power.

Spoiler

Moreover, despite Gohan clearly mastering the form and it being quite apparent Goten and Present Trunks have too (Daizenshuu 2 even stating Goten mastered it), the above image lists them as regular SSJs rather than noting they're anything extra.

The only thing that points to anything of the contrary was this excerpt from Daizenshuu 2:

Spoiler

The problem with that is (beyond the same source contradicting it) that you'd have to take it out of context to support your argument, being it being a chronological presentation of Goku's power evolution. All it means by "He draws his power to its utmost limits" is describing how he could start off suppressed and then go to full power as he does in the panel presented.

There's even more sources debunking the FPSSJ > SSJ route, but this should suffice concerning the Daizenshuu.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

It had a significant boost, sure, but not exactly impressive compared to the other SSJ forms. Had he used the form, not only would it have been ineffective against Cell, but it seems doubtful Trunks and Vegeta would be able to turn things around against all the Cell Juniors. It also seems quite telling that, despite being the no-nonsense type of fighter and not getting Vegeta's desire for a good fight later on, even Trunks was surprised at Vegeta going Grade 2 right away against Cell, suggesting it's not so suitable to use without an overwhelming edge in power over your opponents.
There should be some fair stamina drain to the form when considering even regular SSJ was noted to be quite draining in Ki compared to its mastered variant and Grade 2 functions under the same manner as Grade 3 but to a lesser extent.

Maybe Vegeta just wanted to show off his muscles to Cell