Is SSJ2> USSJ or vice versa?

[Pyro]

You'd think they'd be able to one shot them if serious. SSJ Vegeta was equal to initial Semi Cell and his Gr.2 form was enough to one shot even full power Semi Cell if he wanted to. With Piccolo and Galu there, there's no way in hell they'd be drawn into a long winded battle with the Jrs (unless Cell Jr. Sr. was there).

They dust four or five and then there are still a few more while the Saiyans are running low on stamina.

 

[SSJ2]

Idk, Gr 2's stamina never seemed to be that big of a deal. Vegeta was in the form for a lengthy amount of times and wasn't running into any issues.

 

[Papasmurf]

Idk, Gr 2's stamina never seemed to be that big of a deal. Vegeta was in the form for a lengthy amount of times and wasn't running into any issues.

He didn't use any Ki blasts until the Final Flash in the manga iirc.

 

[VampireWicked]

AscendedSaiyan (SS2) is superior to G1,G2,G3, & G4 is every aspect.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Daizenshuu 7 places the forms in order of their evolution, but gives no section for Super Saiyan Full Power.

Spoiler

Moreover, despite Gohan clearly mastering the form and it being quite apparent Goten and Present Trunks have too (Daizenshuu 2 even stating Goten mastered it), the above image lists them as regular SSJs rather than noting they're anything extra.

The only thing that points to anything of the contrary was this excerpt from Daizenshuu 2:

Spoiler

The problem with that is (beyond the same source contradicting it) that you'd have to take it out of context to support your argument, being it being a chronological presentation of Goku's power evolution. All it means by "He draws his power to its utmost limits" is describing how he could start off suppressed and then go to full power as he does in the panel presented.

There's even more sources debunking the FPSSJ > SSJ route, but this should suffice concerning the Daizenshuu.

What about other sources and the show itself mentioning SSJ has been surpassed? It’s not like the lack of something being stated by one specific source means it’s untrue.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P1.1-2
Kame-sennin: “Aim even higher than Super Saiyan, you say? Is that possible…?!”
Goku: “I dunno…But it looks like I definitely won’t be able to beat these opponents without doing at least that…I’ll train for about 1 year, and if it’s no good, I’ll give up.”

 

[SSJ2]

Goku did achieve higher than Super Saiyan tho. Goku makes it pretty clear that the “regular form” is the one he and Gohan would go with.

The dragon book is irrelevant.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Sounds like circling the point to me. So they did and didn’t surpass SSJ at the same time?

Of course it’s relevant dude. It’s not like the anime adds filler about MSSJ.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What about other sources and the show itself mentioning SSJ has been surpassed? It’s not like the lack of something being stated by one specific source means it’s untrue.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P1.1-2
Kame-sennin: “Aim even higher than Super Saiyan, you say? Is that possible…?!”
Goku: “I dunno…But it looks like I definitely won’t be able to beat these opponents without doing at least that…I’ll train for about 1 year, and if it’s no good, I’ll give up.”

Goku did surpass SSJ with the Grade forms, and then discovered that was the wrong way to utilise Super Saiyan before trying to master it. The anime/manga spell that out pretty clearly.

Keep in mind this source also states he was able to maintain the Super Saiyan state as a major difference rather than focusing entirely on the power aspect. Moreover, the context of the statement is him surpassing his previous limit in reference to before the Rosat training, which is pretty obvious even without FPSSJ being stronger. Furthermore, even if we were to take your view based on this source, that's concerning the anime whereas the Daizenshuu focuses on the manga. That is, if not for another anime guide going against FPSSJ > Grade 3....

"Daizenshuu 10" or TV Animation Guide Part 3

Herms translation: ”Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this."

Absolutely no reference to power is made for FPSSJ, despite the previous sentence saying Grade 2 and 3 > Grade 1 in power.

 

[Classic Adamas]

I'm surprised this is a discussion to be honest. Never once felt that USSJ could be stronger than SSJ2. Doesn't make much sense to me since all prior forms have been progressing in power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku did surpass SSJ with the Grade forms, and then discovered that was the wrong way to utilise Super Saiyan before trying to master it. The anime/manga spell that out pretty clearly.

Keep in mind this source also states he was able to maintain the Super Saiyan state as a major difference rather than focusing entirely on the power aspect. Moreover, the context of the statement is him surpassing his previous limit in reference to before the Rosat training, which is pretty obvious even without FPSSJ being stronger. Furthermore, even if we were to take your view based on this source, that's concerning the anime whereas the Daizenshuu focuses on the manga. That is, if not for another anime guide going against FPSSJ > Grade 3....

"Daizenshuu 10" or TV Animation Guide Part 3

Herms translation: ”Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this."

Absolutely no reference to power is made for FPSSJ, despite the previous sentence saying Grade 2 and 3 > Grade 1 in power.

The Grade forms were the wrong way of doing things because they affected stamina. Goku still needed the power to beat Cell, but aimed to reach that power without transforming his body. Vegeta confirms that. The mere fact he's stronger than before already says FPSSJ > SSJ.

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

I'm pretty sure the guidebooks acknowledging the form's existence already means it's stronger than the others. When has a transformation not made someone stronger? There's a reason it's called Full Power Super Saiyan. But the biggest difference between this and the other 3 forms is the mind.

I got a feeling this discourse has something to do with not wanting the SSJ1 multiplier to be higher than 50x, but that's really not needed. If FPSSJ just means pumping yourself with power without raising muscular mass, what's stopping them from doing that in base? Their regular forms are still chained to 2% or SSJ as the form evolves. Think of it as Vegeta buffing up before going SSJG2 instead of after. Would it not still be 50x? It's the same here, minus the muscles.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The Grade forms were the wrong way of doing things because they affected stamina. Goku still needed the power to beat Cell, but aimed to reach that power without transforming his body. Vegeta confirms that. The mere fact he's stronger than before already says FPSSJ > SSJ.

Not really. All that shows is that Goku's method of training was far more beneficial than Vegeta's.

I'm pretty sure the guidebooks acknowledging the form's existence already means it's stronger than the others. When has a transformation not made someone stronger? There's a reason it's called Full Power Super Saiyan. But the biggest difference between this and the other 3 forms is the mind.

If that were the case, it'd explicitly note such after immediately saying the Grade forms grant more power, not to mention that guide saying that FPSSJ allows them to stay permanently within the SSJ state rather than anything extra. Moreover, the guides' use of the term seems to be more to denote its different function from the regular SSJ. Again, the fact that the Daizenshuu also groups it up with just regular SSJ rather than noting it to have any significance beyond Goku's growth as a fighter also goes against the idea of it drawing out more power than the standard form.
The name also doesn't explicitly imply it's drawing out the full potential of SSJ. The "Full Power" part can easily just be in reference to his utilisation of it such as how he can naturally stay within it or how he can easily go from a suppressed level to full power, not to mention its use in context was of Goku going to his full power against Cell whereas Gohan doesn't get a special mention as a FPSSJ.

I got a feeling this discourse has something to do with not wanting the SSJ1 multiplier to be higher than 50x, but that's really not needed. If FPSSJ just means pumping yourself with power without raising muscular mass, what's stopping them from doing that in base? Their regular forms are still chained to 2% or SSJ as the form evolves. Think of it as Vegeta buffing up before going SSJG2 instead of after. Would it not still be 50x? It's the same here, minus the muscles.

It has less to do with the multipliers and more to do with official sources actively going against the idea of it being different to SSJ in anything but stamina.
This explanation seems to overcomplicate things too. If you're saying the 50x boost remains the same then, if anything, this kind of explanation leads more into the idea that Goku just strengthened his base state; something I'm already arguing for.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

if anything i think the dragon-book implies that by mssj the limits of regular ssj are even greater than before

 

[Hector]

SSJ2>MSSJ>USSJ