Is there any proof that Cymbal>22nd TB Krillin/Yamcha?

[Hector]

Yaay, I love candies.

 

[SSJ2]

Krillin was at best equal to initial 22nd Goku. As soon as Goku started to exert more effort, Krillin was quickly outclassed. Once he began using his Match Level power, only Tenshinhan was capable of seeing his movements. And we know Match Level Goku is a fair amount weaker than his full power. We saw Goku and Yajirobe fight seriously and they were pretty even. Cymbal then arrived and forced Yajirobe to get serious in order to beat him. Not only this, but Cymbal was still able to track a serious Yajirobe's movements despite being completely speed blitzed. If Goku decided to use his combat level vs Krillin, Krillin would have been incinerated. He was already outclassed by his pre Match Level power..

Goku (combat level) >= Yajirobe > Goku (match level) > Cymbal > Goku (1st effort increase) > Krillin <=> Initial Goku

 

[Captain Cadaver]

No. /thread

The most people can draw from to make a case of it is Yajirobe being dusted up a bit by Cymbal's punch and calling him incredibly strong, something contradicted by him oneshotting him with his sword and showing he meant incredibly strong in the context of most people/creatures he knew rather than compared to himself. Even using Yajirobe struggling to dodge his lightning isn't consistent as he easily dodge it and completely went out of Cymbal's sight until just before the slash once he started fighting serious. You could always say Cymbal may still be above them via-scaling, but there's nothing definitive. That, and him being stated to be several times weaker than Tambourine would go against the idea if taking Piano's statement as fact.

 

[SSJ2]

I'd say this is pretty definitive.

Spoiler

1. Goku is simply messing around while at Match Level and was able to become invisible to Krillin.
2. Yajirobe after stating he'd be serious was able to speed blitz Cymbal, but he was still able to react before the attack.

Pretty noticeable difference if you ask me.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That'd be assuming his less serious self was holding back by as much as Goku was against Kuririn, of which we can't definitively prove. It's not as though we can scale him to Budokai level Goku either when he had far less reason to hold back against Goku and sources such as his bio in Kakarot go against the idea of that having been his relaxed level.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not referring to his less serious self, I'm referring to his full power. You agree that Yajirobe is nearly Goku's equal right? If Krillin wasn't able to track suppressed Goku in the slightest, how would he fair against Goku's serious combat power? Cymbal at least had the reaction time to see that Yajirobe had speed blitzed him before he died. Krillin is not capable of this.

 

[ahill1]

Seeing someone quickly when this someone is about to kill/slash you is no big deal, I'd say.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not sure why when reaction time has been shown to be a pretty strong indicator of power.

 

[ahill1]

See Gohan reacting to Recoome appearing behind him and the same Gohan reacting to 2nd form Freeza appearing behind him when the gap was up to 3x++.

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta at SPC also comes to mind.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The difference in distance in the two examples is worth taking into account, as well as how both speed feats were utilised. Goku utilised his full speed at melee range and made an active effort to move in different directions to stop Kuririn tracking him. Meanwhile, Yajirobe had a far greater starting distance between himself and Cymbal and took a far more linear path of just charging forward.

 

[SSJ2]

See Gohan reacting to Recoome appearing behind him and the same Gohan reacting to 2nd form Freeza appearing behind him when the gap was up to 3x++.

You have a point in that they lack consistency, but when we have a direct comparison between powers, and one is capable of of tracking and the other is not, I find it hard to throw that out.

 

[Animelover5487]

Cymbal is stronger. Cymbal being killed by a human was treated as a big deal despite Tambourine treating Kuririn like trash, both Goku and Yaji were holding back in their fight:

Goku (Full Strength) > Yajirobe (Full Strength) = 22nd Goku > Tenshinhan > Tambourine > Goku (Match Level) > Jackie Chun >> Crane Hermit = Goku (Holding Back, Post Tambourine) >= Yajirobe (Holding Back) >= Cymbal >= 22nd Goku (Holding Back) > Kuririn/Yamcha

 

[Hector]

Krillin was at best equal to initial 22nd Goku. As soon as Goku started to exert more effort, Krillin was quickly outclassed. Once he began using his Match Level power, only Tenshinhan was capable of seeing his movements. And we know Match Level Goku is a fair amount weaker than his full power. We saw Goku and Yajirobe fight seriously and they were pretty even. Cymbal then arrived and forced Yajirobe to get serious in order to beat him. Not only this, but Cymbal was still able to track a serious Yajirobe's movements despite being completely speed blitzed. If Goku decided to use his combat level vs Krillin, Krillin would have been incinerated. He was already outclassed by his pre Match Level power..

Goku (combat level) >= Yajirobe > Goku (match level) > Cymbal > Goku (1st effort increase) > Krillin <=> Initial Goku

So you're saying that Cymbal is stronger and the 'Tambourine=2x+ Cymbal' line was an exaggeration or that this line is true as well?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Cymbal is stronger. Cymbal being killed by a human was treated as a big deal despite Tambourine treating Kuririn like trash,

Neither Daimao nor Piano were aware of a human being capable of killing Cymbal, with Tambourine having no basis for how Cymbal would fare against Kuririn.

both Goku and Yaji were holding back in their fight:

There's nothing to suggest that being the case, at least for Yajirobe. He was angry at Goku for having eaten his fish, whereas he treat fighting Cymbal as a game from the start.

 

[SSJ2]

Krillin was at best equal to initial 22nd Goku. As soon as Goku started to exert more effort, Krillin was quickly outclassed. Once he began using his Match Level power, only Tenshinhan was capable of seeing his movements. And we know Match Level Goku is a fair amount weaker than his full power. We saw Goku and Yajirobe fight seriously and they were pretty even. Cymbal then arrived and forced Yajirobe to get serious in order to beat him. Not only this, but Cymbal was still able to track a serious Yajirobe's movements despite being completely speed blitzed. If Goku decided to use his combat level vs Krillin, Krillin would have been incinerated. He was already outclassed by his pre Match Level power..

Goku (combat level) >= Yajirobe > Goku (match level) > Cymbal > Goku (1st effort increase) > Krillin <=> Initial Goku

So you're saying that Cymbal is stronger and the 'Tambourine=2x+ Cymbal' line was an exaggeration or that this line is true as well?

I think the line about Tambourine was an exaggeration. The exact line actually said that Tamourine was "many times" stronger than Cymbal, but I think CC has provided solid logic for ki not scaling linearly. Tambourine might only be 1.5x stronger numerically, but in terms of comparing their ki, he could be many times greater.

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Guh…Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken!”
Goku: “You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

Goku, despite only using Kaioken x2 said that everything became many times greater. I think this is a fair comparison considering many times implies > 2.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well he did give Yajirobe a workout in hand to hand, and Yajirobe was certainly a more formidable foe than Kuririn.

 

[Hector]

Krillin was at best equal to initial 22nd Goku. As soon as Goku started to exert more effort, Krillin was quickly outclassed. Once he began using his Match Level power, only Tenshinhan was capable of seeing his movements. And we know Match Level Goku is a fair amount weaker than his full power. We saw Goku and Yajirobe fight seriously and they were pretty even. Cymbal then arrived and forced Yajirobe to get serious in order to beat him. Not only this, but Cymbal was still able to track a serious Yajirobe's movements despite being completely speed blitzed. If Goku decided to use his combat level vs Krillin, Krillin would have been incinerated. He was already outclassed by his pre Match Level power..

Goku (combat level) >= Yajirobe > Goku (match level) > Cymbal > Goku (1st effort increase) > Krillin <=> Initial Goku

So you're saying that Cymbal is stronger and the 'Tambourine=2x+ Cymbal' line was an exaggeration or that this line is true as well?

I think the line about Tambourine was an exaggeration. The exact line actually said that Tamourine was "many times" stronger than Cymbal, but I think CC has provided solid logic for ki not scaling linearly. Tambourine might only be 1.5x stronger numerically, but in terms of comparing their ki, he could be many times greater.

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Guh…Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken!”
Goku: “You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

Goku, despite only using Kaioken x2 said that everything became many times greater. I think this is a fair comparison considering many times implies > 2.

Here, Goku is obviously talking about the concept of kaioken in general, not strictly about the 2x kaioken.

 

[Animelover5487]

Cymbal is stronger. Cymbal being killed by a human was treated as a big deal despite Tambourine treating Kuririn like trash,

Neither Daimao nor Piano were aware of a human being capable of killing Cymbal, with Tambourine having no basis for how Cymbal would fare against Kuririn.

both Goku and Yaji were holding back in their fight:

There's nothing to suggest that being the case, at least for Yajirobe. He was angry at Goku for having eaten his fish, whereas he treat fighting Cymbal as a game from the start.

Well Tambourine defeated Kuririn and said that he wasn't incredible for a so-called "master", while he thought whoever killed Cymbal was quite formidable.

Goku didn't realize that Yajirobe was holding back at the start of his fight with Cymbal and offered him help. When Yajirobe took out his sword and sliced Cymbal Goku noted he was "fast" implying that he didn't show that kind of speed prior.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well Tambourine defeated Kuririn and said that he wasn't incredible for a so-called "master", while he thought whoever killed Cymbal was quite formidable.

Again, he had no solid evidence to make that basis on. All he saw was Cymbal being born with no indication of how strong he was, so his opinion would be funded entirely on the assumption that he was naturally greater than any human fighter by virtue of being a Mazoku. Moreover, it's pretty arguable if he even got a good gauge of where Kuririn stood when he killed him without trying and he made no note of the Goku he beat, the Budokai runner up, being weaker and only mentioned how this was a soft era in general despite it being very unlikely such a heavily fatigued Goku was still more capable than Kuririn.

Goku didn't realize that Yajirobe was holding back at the start of his fight with Cymbal and offered him help. When Yajirobe took out his sword and sliced Cymbal Goku noted he was "fast" implying that he didn't show that kind of speed prior.

Yajirobe wouldn't have been given a chance to show his speed in their fight even if giving it his all when he made no active attempts to dodge Goku's strikes and it instead just became a slugfest. It's also very doubtful Goku would receive a good gauge of Cymbal's capabilities when he mainly relied on his lightning and, as already said, he wouldn't have seen enough to know how Yajirobe's overall combat speed compared when he only got a display of his durability.