Kaio-Ken x3 Goku (Arrival on Namek) vs Kuririn (vs 1st Form Freeza)

[Fantastische Hure]

No strain for Goku.

Who wins?

 

[SSJ2]

Goku: 270,000
Krillin: 250,000

I give this to Goku with no strain, but Krillin if there is strain. I think Krillin is constantly rising, but at a much slower rate than Gohan as stated by Vegeta, so I don't think he should be pushing 300k.

 

[Animelover5487]

Kuririn: 275

Goku: 270

Kuririn is every bit as skilled as Goku imo so Kuririn's slight power advantage gives him the win.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, I can't see Kuririn being helpful against Freeza, if he's significantly below even half of 1st Form Freeza's power.

 

[Animelover5487]

The reason why I put Kuririn at that power level is because it seems to me like he was intended to be stronger than Weighted Piccolo who going off the Kami-fusion multiplier is 270k.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, I can't see Kuririn being helpful against Freeza, if he's significantly below even half of 1st Form Freeza's power.

I don't really see a difference between being slightly below half and slightly over half. Trunks wasn't any sort of help against 17/18, and he's well over half their strength.

Also:

Spoiler

Besides, Gohan himself isn't even confident in his own power, and he is stronger than Krillin. He's clearly in agreement with Vegeta that they have gotten stronger, but he clearly isn't too confident about the situation overall.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6
Context: after grappling with Vegeta for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”

He continually stutters when talking about the situation, so he acknowledges that Freeza is still miles away from himself.

 

[Pyro]

Krillin wins after a hard fought battle.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, I can't see Kuririn being helpful against Freeza, if he's significantly below even half of 1st Form Freeza's power.

I don't really see a difference between being slightly below half and slightly over half. Trunks wasn't any sort of help against 17/18, and he's well over half their strength.

Also:

Spoiler

Besides, Gohan himself isn't even confident in his own power, and he is stronger than Krillin. He's clearly in agreement with Vegeta that they have gotten stronger, but he clearly isn't too confident about the situation overall.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6
Context: after grappling with Vegeta for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”

He continually stutters when talking about the situation, so he acknowledges that Freeza is still miles away from himself.

Probably, and it could be argued Vegeta was going to do most of the work but only if Vegeta really planned to defeat Freeza as he was. I mean I can see Kuririn helping-out against 1st Form Freeza even if he was way, way below him, since even Jeice could do that for Captain Ginyu but Vegeta planned to fight 2nd Form Freeza who he probably knew was going to be much higher so Kuririn's power had to be of some use against an even stronger Freeza.

But Vegeta was also banking on their powers still rising, so that can be taken into account too.

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta also planned for him to only have a Zarbon-like increase in power. For me Zarbon's increase is about 1.33x and I can accept a little bit on either side depending on your own levels. If we apply this to Freeza, we get:

Freeza: 530,000
Hypothetical Form 2: ~708,000

At this level even Vegeta is trash to Freeza, and it's made clear that Gohan and Krillin were trash to Vegeta, let alone Freeza.

Their reaction to Freeza is quite clear...

Spoiler

They can't touch this level of power, let alone a hypothetical much stronger one. Even Vegeta looks pissed off about Freeza's power, and he's on a complete different level according to Krillin.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.5-6, P14.1
Context: after Freeza and Vegeta grapple for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Freeza: “I see…Seems that wasn’t a complete lie…”
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”
Kuririn: “I-I see…! Since coming here Vegeta’s acquired such strength that he seems to have even further surpassed his limits…B-but…F-Freeza is oddly calm…Why?...”

I think arguing that they will be much help power wise against hypothetical 2nd form Freeza is stretching things too far. You'd have to have them nearly at Vegeta's level for them to be able to make a difference in a physical fight, as proven by the SSJs and Piccolo vs 17/18. Vegeta is probably counting on them to be distractions more than anything, which you can see when he blasts 2nd Form Freeza in the back. He likely wants to use them to find an opening where Freeza is off guard, and he can finish him that way.

 

[SSJ2]

But Vegeta was also banking on their powers still rising, so that can be taken into account too

Fair point, but that's their future powers and not their current powers.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, I'm not sure either. I'm just throwing-out some ideas.

 

[Six Trails]

I have Krillin at 360,000, so Goku gets a foot through his chest. He'd need a Kaioken x4 to match Krillin.

Vegeta also planned for him to only have a Zarbon-like increase in power.

We don't know that for sure.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I have Krillin at 360,000, so Goku gets a foot through his chest. He'd need a Kaioken x4 to match Krillin.

Vegeta also planned for him to only have a Zarbon-like increase in power.

We don't know that for sure.

That's high. The highest I've seen people put him is probably around 300,000 at best, but I like that high.

 

[SSJ2]

I have Krillin at 360,000, so Goku gets a foot through his chest. He'd need a Kaioken x4 to match Krillin.

Vegeta also planned for him to only have a Zarbon-like increase in power.

We don't know that for sure.

We don't but it seems logical considering he doesn't think much of the potential transformation.

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P2.1-3, P3.1
Context: still talking about Freeza’s transformations
Vegeta: “Don’t be scared, he’s bluffing…he won’t change that much.”
Freeza: “Oh, is that right? Look vee—eery closely then. This isn’t something you get to see very often. Even when I attacked Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, and fought with the king, I was able to win without any need to transform whatsoever…Vegeta…your father wasn’t anything special.”

 

[Six Trails]

I agree that it is a logical conclusion, my point is that we can't say for sure what Vegeta's expectations are. Taking his "he won't change that much" comment at face value, I'd argue that Vegeta expected an even smaller increase out of Freeza than Zarbon.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I have Krillin at 360,000, so Goku gets a foot through his chest. He'd need a Kaioken x4 to match Krillin.

Vegeta also planned for him to only have a Zarbon-like increase in power.

We don't know that for sure.

We don't but it seems logical considering he doesn't think much of the potential transformation.

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P2.1-3, P3.1
Context: still talking about Freeza’s transformations
Vegeta: “Don’t be scared, he’s bluffing…he won’t change that much.”
Freeza: “Oh, is that right? Look vee—eery closely then. This isn’t something you get to see very often. Even when I attacked Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, and fought with the king, I was able to win without any need to transform whatsoever…Vegeta…your father wasn’t anything special.”

Honestly, that line seems to imply that Vegeta thinks Freeza can't possibly get much higher. He even says he's bluffing. I guess it's inconceivable to him.

 

[SSJ2]

I don't find it logical that Vegeta would think Freeza would have a transformation much inferior to Zarbon's, who is a much inferior being overall.

 

[Six Trails]

I wouldn't describe Monster Zarbon as not that much of a change compared to base Zarbon. 1.33x is pretty significant by DB's standards.

 

[SSJ2]

I agree, but no matter how you slice the numbers here, anyone aside from Vegeta will be irrelevant against the hypothetical Freeza. Having Freeza have like a 5% increase just seems like a pointless reason to buff everyone else, when they clearly view Vegeta to be on a new level, and Freeza on an untouchable level.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I don't think he specifically is thinking Freeza's transformation-boost'd be lower than Zarbon's. It's just that it seems to me Vegeta thinks Freeza can't possibly get much, much more powerful than he already is. After-all he thought 2nd Form was his true form. He probably thought Freeza already put most of his power in his 1st Form and anything like 2x stronger than a monster like 1st Form Freeza'd seem inconceivable to him.

Zarbon's boost is kind-of significant, but still way inferior to even a regular Kaio-Ken (which isn't even a transformation) or Oozaru.