Kaio-Ken x3 Goku (Arrival on Namek) vs Kuririn (vs 1st Form Freeza)

[SSJ2]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. Vegeta on Namek was kind of delusional, he always struggled to believe that something could be true.

 

[SSJ2]

To finalize what I'm saying here, I'm not saying that Krillin being over what I have isn't possible. I've had him at 300k on numerous BP lists. I just don't see the point in it currently given the reactions to Vegeta and Freeza. Not to mention, 250k is still a massive power level by Namek standards, and is proven to potentially be effective in a team setting by example like Jheese vs Goku, and Piccolo vs Freeza.

 

[Future Warrior]

Kuririn is less than half of Freeza in my book. He still felt intimidated by Freeza even before powering up to 530,000.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Kuririn is less than half of Freeza in my book. He still felt intimidated by Freeza even before powering up to 530,000.

So what do you think on the fight?

 

[Future Warrior]

Kuririn is less than half of Freeza in my book. He still felt intimidated by Freeza even before powering up to 530,000.

So what do you think on the fight?

Goku takes this high difficulty

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Kuririn is less than half of Freeza in my book. He still felt intimidated by Freeza even before powering up to 530,000.

So what do you think on the fight?

Goku takes this high difficulty

 

[Pyro]

One thing I have to say for the fight between Goku and Captain Ginyu was that Jeice was seen as an onlooker. Goku didn't expect him to join in at any point, thus he was focusing only on Ginyu. Jeice's interference isn't really what I'd compare a hypothetical fight with Freeza in Vegeta's mind to.

Krillin and Gohan were dropping shit bricks at Freeza's suppressed power, but that was before Vegeta gave them a pep talk. They probably weren't thinking straight when they were shaking in their boots previously.

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P13.3-4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Gohan: “Th…thi…this can’t be…”
Kuririn: “To-to think that he was this incredible…”

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P8.4
Context: still as Freeza powers up
Kuririn: “Wh-what ki…Th-there’s no way we can win…”
Freeza: “Naturally…Did you really think that 3 ants could win against a dinosaur?”

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…And I’m in the process of becoming what you’re afraid of: a Super Saiyan…!”

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.5-6, P14.1
Context: after Freeza and Vegeta grapple for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Freeza: “I see…Seems that wasn’t a complete lie…”
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”
Kuririn: “I-I see…! Since coming here Vegeta’s acquired such strength that he seems to have even further surpassed his limits…B-but…F-Freeza is oddly calm…Why?...”

Looking at these statements again under closer scrutiny, it sounds more like a lot of hopefulness and desperation than firm declarations. Vegeta mentions the three of them being able to win "somehow or another," Gohan and Krillin's powers still rising, Gohan's inner power, and the idea that he's becoming a Super Saiyan. Even Gohan isn't completely confident, saying they "might really be able to manage something," rather than something more concrete. The only thing holding this all down for me is Freeza saying Vegeta's hope "wasn't a complete lie," very similar to how Cell admitted Goku's claims about Gohan weren't complete lies. With that in mind, I think the three of them should all be reasonably close to Freeza, but not enough to frighten him into thinking he could actually lose before transforming.

The only problems I see are Vegeta and Freeza's suppressed powers, which made Gohan, Krillin, and pre-merger Piccolo require new underwear, and the fact that, yeah, a hypothetical 2nd Form Freeza that's only even 20% stronger than his first form would stomp anyone that's not at least 500-550,000 in power level (which is more than anyone can legitimately put Vegeta). The latter issue is where I could see the hopefulness coming into play, but I can't quite figure out the first part.

 

[SSJ2]

Good post.

ce's interference isn't really what I'd compare a hypothetical fight with Freeza in Vegeta's mind to.

I agree here, but you can't rule out the sort of scenario in a 4 man battle. Especially when you consider that Vegeta tried to roast 2nd Form Freeza from behind with a chi blast, it seems that off-guard attacks were certainly on his mind.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Great post.

But I think that Vegeta might not have thought Freeza could have powered-up much more, after-all he does call bluff on Freeza saying he can get much more powerful.

 

[Pyro]

Good post.

ce's interference isn't really what I'd compare a hypothetical fight with Freeza in Vegeta's mind to.

I agree here, but you can't rule out the sort of scenario in a 4 man battle. Especially when you consider that Vegeta tried to roast 2nd Form Freeza from behind with a chi blast, it seems that off-guard attacks were certainly on his mind.

Were they at the time of his proclamation, or was that something that evolved out of an urgent need later on? And even if that was on Vegeta's mind, it's not something Gohan and Krillin would likely be thinking of, particularly Gohan.

For some reason, I keep thinking of the Nappa battle where everybody pitched in...except Gohan. In this case, with Gohan actually fighting, I think that could be something those two were picturing. They did technically almost beat Nappa with Krillin's Kienzan, and Krillin himself managed to get some hits in despite them doing no lasting damage.

 

[Pyro]

Great post.

But I think that Vegeta might not have thought Freeza could have powered-up much more, after-all he does call bluff on Freeza saying he can get much more powerful.

Without getting into specific percentages, I mostly agree because as he said, Vegeta didn't think the increase would be that impressive. He's obviously not thinking of a much stronger opponent. At the same time, it can't be an insignificant boost either.

 

[Void]

I'll give it to Goku without much trouble.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I'll give it to Goku without much trouble.

Where do you think Kuririn is?

 

[Void]

I have him around 200k. I understand he is supposed to be useful against First Form Freeza and a lot of people put him over 300k, but Krillin ends up making himself useful against Second Form Freeza and I doubt he's anywhere close to him. He really only needs to be a distraction, and he does just that using the Kienzan and Taiyoken.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Power was specifically referenced, though.

But I understand.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Kuririn is at 250k imo, meaning that he'll probably win due to Kaioken being only usable in bursts.

 

[SSJ2]

Kuririn is at 250k imo, meaning that he'll probably win due to Kaioken being only usable in bursts.

No strain. It's sustained.

1

 

[ahill1]

Like KP said, I think Kuririn should be more or less on 1st form Freeza's ballpark, by it I mean like 50% .

It'd be a tough fight, but without strains, I choose Goku as the victorious.

 

[Pyro]

The thing with the whole Freeza arc is the gaps aren't very consistent. You have guys being easily beaten at a 5-9% difference, but then also guys still being able to fight back despite a 20%+ difference. So I wouldn't be surprised if, assuming Toriyama even cared about this stuff, he figured Krillin being at fucking 100,000 to Freeza's 530,000 was totally fine.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

The really big problem is Dodoria & Vegeta. Apparently Dodoria treated Vegeta like nothing, despite the difference in power not being all that big.