Kaioken = 1.5x Boost

[Castiel]

Ki suppression is a very touchy subject, I've been asking myself the same questions but I'll have to think about it long and hard. Nappa powers up during his initial bout with Goku and displays an aura, but gets beaten up really badly. Then he calms down and powers up and displays the same aura as he did before, only he's basically tied with Goku this time. Is the difference just in his mental state? Is the power up he does any different? Calming down perhaps allows him to have better control on his energy, thus making him stronger, as opposed to rage boosts? I'm gonna look into this in the next couple of days, let's see if we can make something work, eh?


As far as KK goes, it being a 1.5 boost has always made perfect sense to me. Ginyu does not actually hold an advantage over Goku during their fight, he does land the first hit, but only thanks to Vegeta drawing Goku's attention.

Goku also differentiates between the forms when fighting Vegeta: first he goes KK and gets beaten up, and then he clearly states he's using Kaioken x2 to dodge Veggie's blast. There's a clear difference there.

Although, when he uses it against Nappa Vegeta says his strength and speed have multiplied... but he is scouterless. Is he full of shit?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Or Vegeta just didn't give a fack at first and then gave a few more facks later on when he did his "power-up"? He was maybe literally sandbagging Goku beforehand, not because he was suppressing his power but he literally held his punches back and didn't care enough to speed-up so he moved at for him a leisurely pace.

 

[ahill1]

Would Vegeta's attack on Nappa be considered a power-up of some sort?

That seemed to throw Goku off entirely.

Maybe. Goku didn't realize Vegeta was so powerful until seeing him killing Nappa like that. Before it he still ordered Vegeta to get Nappa -- who was still alive -- and leave the planet. Goku also knew that the initial Vegeta that had been fighting against his base state was just fooling around and not using full power, but was still impressed by Vegeta's abilities after this latter performed that "power up", so I think that Vegeta, upon killing Nappa, revealed about as much power as his "kicking Goku out of the Kaioken" self, and Vegeta (post 'power up') was a step or two above that.


Vegeta (initially) -- 9,000
Vegeta (killing Nappa, initially vs Kk Goku) -- 16,200
Vegeta (full power) -- 18,000

Does that make sense?

 

[Castiel]

Goku and Piccolo taking off their weighted clothes also ties into this. Did they actually raise their ki or is just the lack of something holding them back enough to trigger the scouter?

 

[ahill1]

Or Vegeta just didn't give a fack at first and then gave a few more facks later on when he did his "power-up"? He was maybe literally sandbagging Goku beforehand, not because he was suppressing his power but he literally held his punches back and didn't care enough to speed-up so he moved at for him a leisurely pace.

I dunno whether the "visual" power up undergone by Vegeta was made that way only to impress Goku, but Vegeta (post such pseudo power up) seems to be a superior fighter compared to his former self given the reasons I mentioned in the previous page. Maybe he didn't have to increase his power in such flashy visual way, but he still seems to be moving at a higher speed and to be outputting more dangerous power and techniques upon doing it.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Or Vegeta just didn't give a fack at first and then gave a few more facks later on when he did his "power-up"? He was maybe literally sandbagging Goku beforehand, not because he was suppressing his power but he literally held his punches back and didn't care enough to speed-up so he moved at for him a leisurely pace.

I dunno whether the "visual" power up undergone by Vegeta was made that way only to impress Goku, but Vegeta (post such pseudo power up) seems to be a superior fighter compared to his former self given the reasons I mentioned in the previous page. Maybe he didn't have to increase his power in such flashy visual way, but he still seems to be moving at a higher speed and to be outputting more dangerous power and techniques upon doing it.

Well, you can't suppress your power. But you can slow-down your speed. Maybe Vegeta was just casually flying around and toying with Goku (like jogging) before and then post "power-up" he used most of or all his speed. Going as fast as he could.

 

[p123]

I think it's a 1.33x power up for Vegeta. It looks like a huge jump in power. His power level would read 18,000 but his actual ability varies wildly do to ability.

The power he uses to finish Nappa is probably around 14,000 or so and his full power is 18,000. Call it effort, call it whatever you want, it happens in real life.

A fighter can't instantly tap into their 100% ability right away. They need to focus, they need to stretch and so on. Vegeta is not going to be at max effort at all times, that's madness.

 

[ahill1]

As far as KK goes, it being a 1.5 boost has always made perfect sense to me. Ginyu does not actually hold an advantage over Goku during their fight, he does land the first hit, but only thanks to Vegeta drawing Goku's attention.

Goku also differentiates between the forms when fighting Vegeta: first he goes KK and gets beaten up, and then he clearly states he's using Kaioken x2 to dodge Veggie's blast. There's a clear difference there.

Although, when he uses it against Nappa Vegeta says his strength and speed have multiplied... but he is scouterless. Is he full of shit?

Goku and Ginyu were both holding back initially. Ginyu estimated Goku's power to be at around 60,000 and then, upon fighting him a little, concluded Goku was even stronger than that, but considering he estimated Goku's reserves to fall in line with a 85k battle power, we know both were using a battle power inferior to that in their short scuffle. They don't need to be equal based on their fight considering they were holding back. At least according to the Guidebooks, Goku's base battle power there was 90,000 and his Kaioken pumped him up to 180k.

I believe Goku differentiated the Kaioken simply to pave the way for the Kaioken x3 that was about to be introducced. Going from outting the words "Kaioken" to Kaioken x3" could seem a little too abrupt, so mentioning the Kaioken x2 would pave the way better for the introduction of the x3 one.

The Narrator stated that the even the Kaioken, which doubles Goku's strength, was no match for Vegeta, so we know the Kaioken is simply a x2 boost. The Kaioken itself is being attributed the ability of doubling Goku's strength:

Spoiler

And notice that it was stated before Goku differentiated it by stating "2x!!". So there's no way around that, the Kaioken Goku used initially against Vegeta doubled his strength, and he mentioning the 2x one can be explained as displayed above.

 

[ahill1]

Or Vegeta just didn't give a fack at first and then gave a few more facks later on when he did his "power-up"? He was maybe literally sandbagging Goku beforehand, not because he was suppressing his power but he literally held his punches back and didn't care enough to speed-up so he moved at for him a leisurely pace.

I dunno whether the "visual" power up undergone by Vegeta was made that way only to impress Goku, but Vegeta (post such pseudo power up) seems to be a superior fighter compared to his former self given the reasons I mentioned in the previous page. Maybe he didn't have to increase his power in such flashy visual way, but he still seems to be moving at a higher speed and to be outputting more dangerous power and techniques upon doing it.

Well, you can't suppress your power. But you can slow-down your speed. Maybe Vegeta was just casually flying around and toying with Goku (like jogging) before and then post "power-up" he used most of or all his speed. Going as fast as he could.

It wasn't merely his speed being suppressed, as Goku made a case of mentioning Vegeta's speed and power.

"His power and speed... I can't keep up, even with twice the Kaioken".

So I take that to mean that both Vegeta's speed and power surpassed the ones showcased by him before, plus Vegeta's dominance over Goku seemed to be bigger post those "typhoons" as well, although I believe you could argue Vegeta was taken off guard before. But still Goku being somewhat surprised that he couldn't keep up with Vegeta with the Kaioken despite making use of it before implies Vegeta's prowess were bigger compared to beforehand imo.

 

[Castiel]

Ah, it would appear I've been got. I'll see if I can bullshit my way out of this tomorrow morning though cause I'm really tired. Nice job ahill <3

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I dunno whether the "visual" power up undergone by Vegeta was made that way only to impress Goku, but Vegeta (post such pseudo power up) seems to be a superior fighter compared to his former self given the reasons I mentioned in the previous page. Maybe he didn't have to increase his power in such flashy visual way, but he still seems to be moving at a higher speed and to be outputting more dangerous power and techniques upon doing it.

Well, you can't suppress your power. But you can slow-down your speed. Maybe Vegeta was just casually flying around and toying with Goku (like jogging) before and then post "power-up" he used most of or all his speed. Going as fast as he could.

It wasn't merely his speed being suppressed, as Goku made a case of mentioning Vegeta's speed and power.

"His power and speed... I can't keep up, even with twice the Kaioken".

So I take that to mean that both Vegeta's speed and power surpassed the ones showcased by him before, plus Vegeta's dominance over Goku seemed to be bigger post those "typhoons" as well, although I believe you could argue Vegeta was taken off guard before. But still Goku being somewhat surprised that he couldn't keep up with Vegeta with the Kaioken despite making use of it before implies Vegeta's prowess were bigger compared to beforehand imo.

I did say he was pulling his punches perhaps.

 

[ahill1]