Ki vs Power

[FeatsofPower]

If someone loses 10% of their ki, how much of their power do they retain?

If someone senses a ki user's full ki, is it their full power?

Can ki user's access power greater than their ki?

 

[SSJ2]

Are these terms not synonymous with one another?

 

[Goku9001]

Are these terms not synonymous with one another?

No. Ki refers to the user's overall stamina whereas power refers to the amount of ki that is being outputted by the user. It seems that there is a correlation between the overall ki and power that a user has but that doesn't mean there is a 1:1 relationship. Just because someone loses over half of their ki does not mean they lost over half of their battle power. This was self-evident ever since the first battle in Z where Piccolo retained his full power after a near-fatal injury, 2 Makanosappo, and regenerating his arm. His ki evidently dropped but his power did not.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo also wasted a lot of Ki fighting Goku but had a lot of power left to fight Kami and co.. In fact, I think Part 1 fights are the biggest example of Ki and Power being separate attributes. SEG also lists Ki and Power as different attributes, but I think by "Power" they mean physical/muscular strength instead of overall strength.

I'm not sure if Ki = Stamina though. They're tied, but stamina should be a separate thing altogether.

 

[ahill1]

Chi refers simply to their amount of power. No need to overcomplicate things.

 

[Animelover5487]

Piccolo also wasted a lot of Ki fighting Goku but had a lot of power left to fight Kami and co.. In fact, I think Part 1 fights are the biggest example of Ki and Power being separate attributes. SEG also lists Ki and Power as different attributes, but I think by "Power" they mean physical/muscular strength instead of overall strength.

I'm not sure if Ki = Stamina though. They're tied, but stamina should be a separate thing altogether.

That could just mean Piccolo was just that much stronger than Kami

 

[Goku9001]

It depends on context. I'm assuming that @FeatsofPower made this thread in response to the discussion we had which in that case, when I say ki, I meant energy. The way characters mention ki often refers to power. I just assumed Feats was referring to the Buu meter specifically where I mentioned that the Buu meter explicitly draws upon the total energy of the fighter. Goku and Vegeta exhausted a lot of energy during their fight but that doesn't mean their power dropped by the same amount. We know this to be true the very moment Raditz died. Piccolo exhausted a lot of energy but his power remained intact.

The reason why power and ki/energy seems synonymous is only because characters make judgements about a fighter's ki based on what they sense and ki sensing serves as a replacement for scouters which detect one's overall battle power. In general, the stronger the fighter, the more ki or energy they will have. But, that doesn't mean their power drops in proportion to the ki they expend. Otherwise, every fighters' power drops the moment they throw a ki blast and we know that's blatantly not true. Even Super Saiyan 3 Goku grappled with Kid Buu for a while before his power dropped and that is one of the most energy-intensive techniques in the series.

Hopefully that clarifies things. I don't want the argument to boil down to semantics.

 

[FeatsofPower]

If each ki blast is an insignificant portion of their total power then what does it matter?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What does an individual punch matter? Is every punch a fighter throws their best, strongest punch?

 

[Goku9001]

If each ki blast is an insignificant portion of their total power then what does it matter?

It doesn't matter. It's just an example that really doesn't make sense. Characters have mantained power even after using fully amped attacks. Piccolo after his battle with Raditz obviously did.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It doesn't matter. It's just an example that really doesn't make sense. Characters have mantained power even after using fully amped attacks. Piccolo after his battle with Raditz obviously did.

I can use energy and still be at full power without losing my stamina.

if I throw a whole bunch of punches I used a lot of energy but if I’m in good shape I’ll be able to go on.

why would it be any different then real life?

 

[Goku9001]

I can use energy and still be at full power without losing my stamina.

if I throw a whole bunch of punches I used a lot of energy but if I’m in good shape I’ll be able to go on.

why would it be any different then real life?

This is basically what I'm saying. I don't think power necessarily drops at the same rate as a user's energy does. There are multiple examples where that is not the case.

 

[Goku9001]

If someone loses 10% of their ki, how much of their power do they retain?

If someone senses a ki user's full ki, is it their full power?

Can ki user's access power greater than their ki?

Also, interesting question. Realistically, they shouldn't be sensing their full ki as in their overall total reserves. Ki sensors only can detect ki that is generally outputted and power is contingent upon the amount of ki that is currently being surfaced. Suppressing your ki doesn't reduce your total energy to zero but it makes it undetectable because it is no longer being surfaced.

So the answer is that the user's full ki will not be sensed. The only thing that can be detected is the amount of ki they are currently releasing. If they are releasing as much ki as possible, then their full power will be detected regardless of their total reserves. The only moment this does not remain true is if their energy falls to the point where they can no longer release as much ki as possible.

 

[FeatsofPower]

This is where we disagree. When someone senses another’s ki, they immediately assume it’s their full power. Ki is used interchangeably with power.

If I sense someone has 100 ki and they drop to 90, their power would effectively drop to 90.

I think this is the nail in the coffin for me. For someone to sense a 50 ki and somehow have to do some crazy mathematical formula to assume they are at 75 feels very anti Toriyama.

 

[FeatsofPower]

So the answer is that the user's full ki will not be sensed.

When you say this, do you see where your argument breaks down? This goes against everything we’ve ever seen.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I don't think it exists a differintiation between ki and power; when we are told that Cell's ki has dropped against Goku, we know that he got weaker, when we are told that Gohan's ki didn't drop against Cell it is undestand that he is still as the same, when it is said that Buu's ki never drop, we are understand that he never lost power. Among many examples.

 

[Goku9001]

This is where we disagree. When someone senses another’s ki, they immediately assume it’s their full power. Ki is used interchangeably with power.

If I sense someone has 100 ki and they drop to 90, their power would effectively drop to 90.

I think this is the nail in the coffin for me. For someone to sense a 50 ki and somehow have to do some crazy mathematical formula to assume they are at 75 feels very anti Toriyama.

You didn't debunk anything. Ki sensing isn't going to detect drops in total reserves. It's only going to catch on to how much ki the fighter is currently emitting. That's why ki suppression negates sensing despite the user's overall reserves remaining intact. You don't immediately lose all of your energy upon suppressing your ki and that's a point you deliberately ignored. You cannot create power without ki so obviously characters' are going to use ki and power interchangeably. There's no dispute here. What I'm talking about is the energy or stamina of the user which is something that is not sensed by sensors and that's the only thing relevant with the Buu meter.

The Buu meter completely relies upon the reserves or the energy consumed by the fighter. This isn't complicated and I see no rebuttal to any of the counterexamples I provided. Did Piccolo use up a lot of energy against Raditz? Yes or no. Was his battle power at full power after the battle? Yes or no. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I honestly don't understand what you're getting at because you are blatantly contradicting yourself.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Toriyama himself tends to complicate this a lot. Sometimes characters can sense someone’s hidden power just because.

The lesson I take here is, we’re better off not thinking this. We don’t know enough about this stuff to get conclusive answers.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Did Piccolo use up a lot of energy against Raditz? Yes or no.

No.

The Buu meter completely relies upon the reserves or the energy consumed by the fighter.

It uses ki, or damage energy. Not reserves. What is "reserves"? There are no reserves. It's just ki energy.

Was his battle power at full power after the battle?

More or less. He hardly used up that much energy. He fought very briefly but suffered the loss of an arm.

You didn't debunk anything. Ki sensing isn't going to detect drops in total reserves. It's only going to catch on to how much ki the fighter is currently emitting.

There are no reserves. Whatever ki they are putting out is all they are capable of putting out barring suppression or transformation.

If a character is using full effort and has a 100 ki power, they could never use 500 ki power. That has never happened before. Ever. This very fact debunks your point.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The lesson I take here is, we’re better off not thinking this. We don’t know enough about this stuff to get conclusive answers.

Which is why ki = power seems to be the best decision, and we've never really gone against it.