Ki vs Power

[Goku9001]

@FeatsofPower

Okay, there's no middle ground to establish here. It's obvious stamina and power is completely disconnected based on one of your posts prior. The thing you don't understand is that ki sensors only sense the ki currently emitted, not the total energy their body has. You're glossing over points while missing the big picture here.

 

[Goku9001]

Toriyama himself tends to complicate this a lot. Sometimes characters can sense someone’s hidden power just because.

The lesson I take here is, we’re better off not thinking this. We don’t know enough about this stuff to get conclusive answers.

This has nothing to do with hidden power.

There's no denying that power is one representation of ki. The issue is that we're conflating ki output with a user's total ki and energy. Ki is a representation of both power and total energy but they are represented in different ways. The Z Senshi do refer to ki when they discuss power but the only thing they can sense is ki output, not total energy. Therefore, just because ki is a representation of power does not mean it is not represented differently for energy.

We know this to be true because ki suppression does not reduce overall energy but does reduce ki output. That is only the case if ki is used differently to represent both power and ki. Therefore, just because ki can represent power does not mean it is represented differently when we talk about total energy.

This is a point that is completely being ignored for reasons that I don't know. There is absolutely no proof that there is a 1:1 relationship between power and energy whereas there is plenty of proof that drops in energy do not necessitate an equivalent drop in power. Case in point would be Piccolo's battle with Android 17 where Android 17 only mentioned that Piccolo's power would start to drop because his stamina was starting to diminish after multiple clashes. That would not be the case if Piccolo's power had been dropping from the onset.

This isn't that complicated. It is very simple to understand. @FeatsofPower literally stated that you can consume energy while maintaining nearly maximum efficiency. Gamma 1 explicitly told Gohan that he was designed so that he could maintain full power while consuming energy far longer than organic organisms due to their inherent design which implies that organic organisms can maintain power to some capacity while exhausting energy. The Gammas just do it better.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Therefore, just because ki can represent power does not mean it is represented differently when we talk about total energy.

You are using ki suppression to justify this? How does that make sense?

fighters cannot, I repeat, cannot output more energy than they are giving off minus suppression.

 

[Goku9001]

You are using ki suppression to justify this? How does that make sense?

fighters cannot, I repeat, cannot output more energy than they are giving off minus suppression.

You literally make no sense. Every fighter has a specific amount of energy in their body but they only utilize a specific amount within a given timeframe.

Think of it like this. Our total energy is the calories that we have in our body. When we exercise, we are expending energy i.e calories. But, we cannot use it all at once. It remains in our body as a reserve to maintain our work efficiency and metabolic functions. Same principle would apply here. Total energy is the calories and other nutrients in your body. Power is the calories you are currently burning to maintain your effort. There's obviously other factors like lactic acid and VO2 efficiency but let's keep it simple.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Do you really think AT was thinking like this?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Wait I get it now. It’s just the words that get tricky.

Goku’s PL is 100, but his reserves are a 1,000. After he fires a Kamehameha his PL is still 100, but his reserves fall to 900 or so. Getting beat up costs stamina just like firing blasts does.

Right?

 

[Goku9001]

Wait I get it now. It’s just the words that get tricky.

Goku’s PL is 100, but his reserves are a 1,000. After he fires a Kamehameha his PL is still 100, but his reserves fall to 900 or so. Getting beat up costs stamina just like firing blasts does.

Right?

Exactly.

Do you really think AT was thinking like this?

Characters clearly exhaust energy without losing power. Did Piccolo lose power the moment he fought Android 17.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Wait I get it now. It’s just the words that get tricky.

Goku’s PL is 100, but his reserves are a 1,000. After he fires a Kamehameha his PL is still 100, but his reserves fall to 900 or so. Getting beat up costs stamina just like firing blasts does.

Right?

This analogy makes sense to me.

however.

Characters clearly exhaust energy without losing power. Did Piccolo lose power the moment he fought Android 17.

No, because the amount of power he’s using is insignificant to his total power.

think of it more like this.

He has 100 ki points, but every point has 1,000 units of energy in it.

So he can exhaust a lot without his power dropping.

 

[Goku9001]

This analogy makes sense to me.

however.



No, because the amount of power he’s using is insignificant to his total power.

think of it more like this.

He has 100 ki points, but every point has 1,000 units of energy in it.

So he can exhaust a lot without his power dropping.

He was sweating profusely, muscles tensed, panting, and veins were popping over the course of the fight.

 

[FeatsofPower]

He was sweating profusely, muscles tensed, panting, and veins were popping over the course of the fight.

And? Fighters do that all the time and are able to fight at their maximum for many rounds. Why could Piccolo do the same?

 

[Goku9001]

And? Fighters do that all the time and are able to fight at their maximum for many rounds. Why could Piccolo do the same?

And clearly they're using a lot of energy. They can just maintain their power before they start slowing down.

 

[FeatsofPower]

And clearly they're using a lot of energy. They can just maintain their power before they start slowing down.

I don’t think I buy that. Fighters maintain their full power for a long period of time. You can physically see a fighter exerting full power for a full round or two. Look at someone like Conor McGregor, a super explosive athlete who is known to burn out who fights with a very aggressive style.

He was able to maintain his full power for a solid two rounds even though he’s throwing all sorts of roundhouses.

I think ki depletion works in chunks, it isn’t necessarily chipped away at. It’s not noticeable at first.

And then they go down a level. That’s what usually happens.

Look at Goku vs Cell, look at Piccolo vs Goku. They are going all out and only have stamina issues after a solid margin into the fight just like every fight we’ve ever seen by a well conditioned athlete.

 

[Goku9001]

I don’t think I buy that. Fighters maintain their full power for a long period of time. You can physically see a fighter exerting full power for a full round or two. Look at someone like Conor McGregor, a super explosive athlete who is known to burn out who fights with a very aggressive style.

He was able to maintain his full power for a solid two rounds even though he’s throwing all sorts of roundhouses.

I think ki depletion works in chunks, it isn’t necessarily chipped away at. It’s not noticeable at first.

And then they go down a level. That’s what usually happens.

Look at Goku vs Cell, look at Piccolo vs Goku. They are going all out and only have stamina issues after a solid margin into the fight just like every fight we’ve ever seen by a well conditioned athlete.

We're basically saying the same thing. Using a lot of energy or ki doesn't necessitate a drop in performance or at least the equivalent. Piccolo vs. Android 17 makes it very self-evident. Piccolo literally had to be gassed out from expending ki before a small gap began to appear between them. Goku exhausted a lot of ki against Cell yet still remained above both Vegeta and Trunks. The examples you provided make that very clear.

Obviously in real life, there are other factors that contribute to stamina but the main one that is blatantly shown is ki. Lactic acid and Vo2 max among other things hardly remain a factor within the series so it's best just to disregard them when evaluating Z. As you've mentioned, Toriyama is a simple man after all.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I hear what you are saying. But it still wouldn’t mean someone’s ki is less than their power.

 

[VampireWicked]

Depends on what you're talking about, physical or spiritual as Ki is a collective combination of physical, spiritual, courage, etc.
So a 10% drop would be a 10% drop overall, a better question would be how powerful would someone's Ki be if they lacked any of those aspects that make up Ki to begin with.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I hear what you are saying. But it still wouldn’t mean someone’s ki is less than their power.

Ki signature and Total Ki amount are different things. You can’t tell how deep are their reserves, how long they can fight just by sensing.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Ki signature and Total Ki amount are different things. You can’t tell how deep are their reserves, how long they can fight just by sensing.

Their reserves have nothing to do with total power.

Reserves are meaningless here. You can’t fight at a higher level than your ki output.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Their reserves have nothing to do with total power.

Reserves are meaningless here. You can’t fight at a higher level than your ki output.

That’s exactly what charged attacks are though. You raise your power beyond the usual for one attack and you don’t gas out from that.

 

[FeatsofPower]

That’s exactly what charged attacks are though. You raise your power beyond the usual for one attack and you don’t gas out from that.

They amp the ki

 

[Goku9001]

I hear what you are saying. But it still wouldn’t mean someone’s ki is less than their power.

Well yeah. You can't output more ki than whatever remaining amount of energy you have left. My main point was that there is a distinction between the amount of ki a fighter has and their battle power. A drop in the amount of ki you have does not guarantee a similar drop in power.