Ki vs Power

[VampireWicked]

Well yeah. You can't output more ki than whatever remaining amount of energy you have left. My main point was that there is a distinction between the amount of ki a fighter has and their battle power. A drop in the amount of ki you have does not guarantee a similar drop in power.

I get what you're saying.
Basically If say Vegeta fully rested fires a FinalFlash with an output power level of 10Million
An exhausted Vegeta would still fire a FinalFlash with an output power level of 10Million.
I disagree.

I disagree because you're not factoring the effort put into these attacks both rested vs exhausted.
It's a simple concept that's been explained repeatedly more directly through SuperSaiyan Grades & Kaioken.
It is a matter of what the user can tolerate/withstand.
If Vegeta is exhausted his FinalFlash will not remain at 10Million without exerting more effort into the attack to get there.
A fully rested Vegeta will tolerate/withstand that output with less exertion of effort.

I think you're basing this off Gohan of SUPER & Gohan of SUPER is inaccurate to the initial concept.
Your example of Goku vs Cell both exhausted yet still above Vegeta/Trunks would only indicate that both Goku & Cell are that much far above Vegeta/Trunks.

What you left off is Cell & Goku actually tell each other that Super Kamehameha DID take alot out of them, so their Ki attacks would not be as strong as they would be freshly going in.
Your starting 20Million Ki drops below 10Million you are not going fire a 10Million output Ki Blast.

As i said it's the Effort of Rested vs Exhausted.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Well yeah. You can't output more ki than whatever remaining amount of energy you have left. My main point was that there is a distinction between the amount of ki a fighter has and their battle power. A drop in the amount of ki you have does not guarantee a similar drop in power.

I disagree. A drop in ki is a drop in battle power. You can't be at 50% power and somehow use 100% of your power whenever you want.

A ki blast might be something different.

Put it this way, do you really think "Less than Half Power" Kid Gohan can fight SPC in hand to hand combat and win?

I think the only reason Gohan had a chance was because it was a ki blast battle. Don't you?

 

[FeatsofPower]

@Goku9001
@GreatSaiyaman123

Do you guys have my old Androids Saga list? I was wondering what I did with it. I think I had nearly perfected everything with it too. Any way you guys can find it?

 

[Goku9001]

I disagree. A drop in ki is a drop in battle power. You can't be at 50% power and somehow use 100% of your power whenever you want.

A ki blast might be something different.

Put it this way, do you really think "Less than Half Power" Kid Gohan can fight SPC in hand to hand combat and win?

I think the only reason Gohan had a chance was because it was a ki blast battle. Don't you?

There are many counterexamples that go against you so I won't entertain it. But really, the point is that ki can drop way more than power does. You even agreed on this with me so why are you backpedaling here?

And yes, Gohan can win assuming he can maintain full power long enough to beat Cell. One arm never hindered Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Goku9001
@GreatSaiyaman123

Do you guys have my old Androids Saga list? I was wondering what I did with it. I think I had nearly perfected everything with it too. Any way you guys can find it?

Boom, you looking for this?

Feats of Power Level List

Haven't done one of these in a long time. Not a completed version, but this should suffice in getting it started. Been working hard, getting this stuff better nuanced. Freeza Saga Super Saiyan Goku 150,000,000 Freeza (100%)...

dbzeta.net

First result on google.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Nah the one with Goku Namek at 375, we worked on it on Discord a lot. I think we did a lot of work on the Androids Saga.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Oh no that’s actually good it includes it awesome bro thanks!

 

[VampireWicked]

There are many counterexamples that go against you so I won't entertain it. But really, the point is that ki can drop way more than power does. You even agreed on this with me so why are you backpedaling here?

And yes, Gohan can win assuming he can maintain full power long enough to beat Cell. One arm never hindered Gohan.

So how can a user fire a Ki Blast with a constant output level when exhausted & the drop in Ki is far lower than that of the Ki attack itself or the remaining reserve Ki of that user.

HOW would Goku exhausted be absolutely capable of firing a Super Kamehameha at that same damage potency vs when he's well rested ?

 

[Goku9001]

So how can a user fire a Ki Blast with a constant output level when exhausted & the drop in Ki is far lower than that of the Ki attack itself or the remaining reserve Ki of that user.

HOW would Goku exhausted be absolutely capable of firing a Super Kamehameha at that same damage potency vs when he's well rested ?

This is a strawman. I never denied that power doesn't drop once a user's stamina reaches a certain point. I obviously agree with you considering I referenced the Gammas who did imply that people's power does drop.

All I'm saying is that a user's power doesn't always drop when their stamina drops nor does it even drop at the same rate. Unleashing a Kamehameha isn't going to cause Goku's power to suddenly drop.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But you keep equating ki used to power kept. They amplify ki so I think you are overestimating how much is being used. Regardless ki and power should be consistent.

 

[Goku9001]

But you keep equating ki used to power kept. They amplify ki so I think you are overestimating how much is being used. Regardless ki and power should be consistent.

I'm saying that using ki in general doesn't always cause your power to drop. I've already provided examples of this. Why is that so difficult to understand? I think you're just overcomplicating something so simple. Goku's power didn't drop against Cell until he unleashed a FP Kamehameha. At that point, his stamina fell to the point where full power could no longer be maintained. This is what we see.

I'm just sitting here wondering why there is a 1:1 relationship between power and stamina. I think you're conflating the two because you seem to think ki strictly refers to power and nothing else.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It’s a difficult concept. Walk me through it.

Gokus initial ki and power are in balance

ki 100 power 100

Him and Cell fight for a while no one can discern any noticeable drop in power.

Where is his ki and his power here?

Then Goku does the KhH, where is his ki and power now?

 

[VampireWicked]

This is a strawman. I never denied that power doesn't drop once a user's stamina reaches a certain point. I obviously agree with you considering I referenced the Gammas who did imply that people's power does drop.

All I'm saying is that a user's power doesn't always drop when their stamina drops nor does it even drop at the same rate. Unleashing a Kamehameha isn't going to cause Goku's power to suddenly drop.

That's not what I'm asking at all, nor is your answer saying anything.

This this "All I'm saying is that a user's power doesn't always drop when their stamina drops nor does it even drop at the same rate. Unleashing a Kamehameha isn't going to cause Goku's power to suddenly drop.
" this says absolutely nothing as it is the vaguest explanation given to a question I didn't ask.
You do not establish the rate anything drops, when it drops, by how much it drops, much less reply to the question I'm asking you.
It's like me asking by what means did Goku get to earth & you're saying What's Goku standing on, he's standing on a dirt hill.
You created the Strawman here, a full zootopia moment. You asked & answered your own question while saying nothing.

I didn't ask you if Ki causes stamina drop.
I asked you if Goku is exhausted how does he fire a Super Kamehameha at the same damage level as if he was fully rested, what would keep him firing even exhausted at that constant effort at that same damage level ?

 

[FeatsofPower]

I don’t think a ki senser can determine the amount of ki being used per blast or punch, he can only tell when the ki users ki has been depleted rendering this argument invalid.

@Goku9001

Unless you can show me how it would work from a ki sensers perspective I’d say we are going to have to move on from this.

 

[Kyo]

Ki reserves = 10,000
Stamina = 100%
Full power = 1000


Goku uses a casual KHH

KHH = 3000

Stamina remains unchanged

Ki reserves = 7000 (or a bit less)
Stamina = 100%
Full power = 1000

Goku fights and then uses a full power KHH

KHH = 5000

He gets tired

Ki reserves = 2000 (or less)
Stamina = 80%
Full power = 800

I don’t necessarily believe all of that, just laying it out. This is more or less HxH logic.

People can only sense “Full power” and “KHH,” they can never sense “Ki reserves” except maybe if they’re on some Babidi shit.

 

[Goku9001]

I don’t think a ki senser can determine the amount of ki being used per blast or punch, he can only tell when the ki users ki has been depleted rendering this argument invalid.

@Goku9001

Unless you can show me how it would work from a ki sensers perspective I’d say we are going to have to move on from this.

A scouter detected Piccolo at full power after using 2 fully charged Makankosappo, taking a nearly fatal blow from Raditz, and regenerating his arm.

You also can't sense ki reserves so I'm not sure how this would help your argument either. At least in my case, we have statements of characters retaining full power and requiring a certain amount of fighting to occur before their power dropped.

 

[Goku9001]

That's not what I'm asking at all, nor is your answer saying anything.

This this "All I'm saying is that a user's power doesn't always drop when their stamina drops nor does it even drop at the same rate. Unleashing a Kamehameha isn't going to cause Goku's power to suddenly drop.
" this says absolutely nothing as it is the vaguest explanation given to a question I didn't ask.
You do not establish the rate anything drops, when it drops, by how much it drops, much less reply to the question I'm asking you.
It's like me asking by what means did Goku get to earth & you're saying What's Goku standing on, he's standing on a dirt hill.
You created the Strawman here, a full zootopia moment. You asked & answered your own question while saying nothing.

I didn't ask you if Ki causes stamina drop.
I asked you if Goku is exhausted how does he fire a Super Kamehameha at the same damage level as if he was fully rested, what would keep him firing even exhausted at that constant effort at that same damage level ?

Because the rate doesn't matter. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between energy and power so you can't draw a firm conclusion of how much power a fighter has retained just based on the ki they used alone. Being exhausted is completely irrelevant to that point.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ok so going to Goku vs Majin Vegeta since it's how this whole thread started.

How does this even matter? Boo's meter takes Ki, power, not stamina. If Boo was revived, then Goku and Vegeta lost a shit ton of power and even more stamina.

 

[VampireWicked]

Because the rate doesn't matter. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between energy and power so you can't draw a firm conclusion of how much power a fighter has retained just based on the ki they used alone. Being exhausted is completely irrelevant to that point.

No it all matters, you can't claim there's a rate of drop with no explanation by how much & why.

1. You're telling me Goku fully rested can fire 2000 Super Kamehameha non-stop with no drop in the damage level from the very 1st Super Kamehameha to the very last Super Kamehameha he fires.

2. Then you're saying an exhausted Goku can fire 2000 Super Kamehameha & they will all be equal to as if he were well rested.

3. You're telling me there's a rate that Ki drops & a rate that damage level drops, yet both don't drop equally yet the reasons for those drops they're completely unrelated but you cannot explain what that is.

NO.
As I said you haven't said anything, you made a claim with no firm conclusion of the drop rate, damage, the level of effort or exhaustion, no established output for the Super Kamehameha or any Ki Blast for that matter.

Your argument is nothing but an appeal to ignorance which would do nothing provide you with an instant win.

People can only sense “Full power” and “KHH,” they can never sense “Ki reserves” except maybe if they’re on some Babidi shit.

In short they sense what's not hidden.
SO if a fighter is exhausted & or dying, they sense whatever level of Ki they have left right.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Ki reserves = 10,000
Stamina = 100%
Full power = 1000


Goku uses a casual KHH

KHH = 3000

Stamina remains unchanged

Ki reserves = 7000 (or a bit less)
Stamina = 100%
Full power = 1000

Goku fights and then uses a full power KHH

KHH = 5000

He gets tired

Ki reserves = 2000 (or less)
Stamina = 80%
Full power = 800

I don’t necessarily believe all of that, just laying it out. This is more or less HxH logic.

People can only sense “Full power” and “KHH,” they can never sense “Ki reserves” except maybe if they’re on some Babidi shit.

Thanks for the effort. This seems fine. Which is my overall point to @Goku9001 , the fighter's sense their current ki, which should be directly in line with their power. I see no reason to alter one from another.