Kibitoshin vs Super Perfect Cell

[SSJ2]

Yeah do we actually have reason to believe that Kibitoshin is SSJ2 tier? The only thing that backs it up is Old Kaioshin saying that Kibitoshin would be "more fodder for Boo" or something like that. His initial reaction to the potara is immediately shut down by Old Kaioshin.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah do we actually have reason to believe that Kibitoshin is SSJ2 tier? The only thing that backs it up is Old Kaioshin saying that Kibitoshin would be "more fodder for Boo" or something like that. His initial reaction to the potara is immediately shut down by Old Kaioshin.

There is no evidence to suggest he's anywhere close to Super Saiyan 2 tier. Remember, Vegeta is seen as someone who can help out on Kaioshin's planet, not KibitoShin. Vegeta > KibitoShin for sure.

 

[Papasmurf]

So what is KibitoShit's multiplier exactly? Like 3-4x? lol

 

[FeatsofPower]

So what is KibitoShit's multiplier exactly? Like 3-4x? lol

No, it's quite strong I'd imagine, it's just that he's very weak. Remember, Kibito and Kaioshin are both much weaker than the Base Saiyans.

 

[Yoshi]

Kibitoshin would definitely be above the Base Saiyans, because I have Kaioshin below the Base Saiyans. Don't really know if he would be comparable to the Super Saiyans or not, but definitely not Super Saiyan 2 tier.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Kibitoshin would definitely be above the Base Saiyans, because I have Kaioshin below the Base Saiyans. Don't really know if he would be comparable to the Super Saiyans or not, but definitely not Super Saiyan 2 tier.

He shouldn't be all that much beyond Base Saiyan power. Fusion power seems to be based off of top power, not base power.

For example...

Base Gotenks > Super Saiyan Kids

Base Fusion > Highest Power Fusee

Since Kibito and Kaioshin have no transformations, their top power can be exceeded without even going beyond the Base Saiyan threshold.

Consider this, Base Gotenks power is comprised of the power the Super Saiyan kids have. So if you compare Kibito and Kaioshin to Super Saiyan Kids, you realize they are not close.

 

[Yoshi]

He shouldn't be all that much beyond Base Saiyan power. Fusion power seems to be based off of top power, not base power.

For example...

Base Gotenks > Super Saiyan Kids

Base Fusion > Highest Power Fusee

Since Kibito and Kaioshin have no transformations, their top power can be exceeded without even going beyond the Base Saiyan threshold.

Consider this, Base Gotenks power is comprised of the power the Super Saiyan kids have. So if you compare Kibito and Kaioshin to Super Saiyan Kids, you realize they are not close.

So who do you think Kibitoshin would be closest to in power? Base Goku, Base Vegeta, or Base Gohan?

 

[Papasmurf]

In Super Gogeta says his power is more than just the addition of the two fusees' powers rather than saying "I'm stronger than Blue even in my normal form" though. Although both the Super manga and anime (at least in Kefla's case) and the Broly movie seem to support Vegetto/Gogeta/Kefla being above their two fusees' highest powers even in base with tired base Vegetto >> SSJB unmastered Goku/Vegeta and Gogeta being at least Broly arc SSJB tier, Kefla outmatching SSJG Goku with ease and so on.

 

[FeatsofPower]

So who do you think Kibitoshin would be closest to in power? Base Goku, Base Vegeta, or Base Gohan?

I have no idea. He most likely shouldn't be rated. There's too many variables and not enough evidence.

In Super Gogeta says his power is more than just the addition of the two fusees' powers rather than saying "I'm stronger than Blue even in my normal form" though. Although both the Super manga and anime (at least in Kefla's case) and the Broly movie seem to support Vegetto/Gogeta/Kefla being above their two fusees' highest powers even in base with tired base Vegetto >> SSJB unmastered Goku/Vegeta and Gogeta being at least Broly arc SSJB tier, Kefla outmatching SSJG Goku with ease and so on.

Base Fusion > Fusee's Full Power

This trend seems to hold.

Let's say this is the case.

Base Goku/Vegeta 100 (Does not have Super Saiyan yet)
Base Gogeta 250

The next day, the acquire Super Saiyan.

Base Goku/Vegeta 100
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta 5,000
Base Gogeta 1,250

Merely acquiring a new form would unlock a substantial boost in fusion power.

Even though Goku and Vegeta's base were the same, without the transformation, Gogeta's power is wildly different.

This is how fusion appears to work.

Every time we have seen a fusion, the Base Fusion has surpassed the Fusee's top transformation, regardless of transformation.

I'd say the evidence seems to be in favor of this approach being the smartest.

 

[Papasmurf]

So you think Vegetto would've been weaker than Gohan-Boo in SSJ1 if Goku had not unlocked SSJ3?

Also what's your reasoning for base Gotenks appearing to get huge gains post-Rosat even though Goten and Trunks did not gain more transformations? Just due to SSJ mastery/unlocking SSJ2 and 3?

 

[FeatsofPower]

So you think Vegetto would've been weaker than Gohan-Boo in SSJ1 if Goku had not unlocked SSJ3?

Also what's your reasoning for base Gotenks appearing to get huge gains post-Rosat even though Goten and Trunks did not gain more transformations? Just due to SSJ mastery/unlocking SSJ2 and 3?

Yes, surely if Goku is dramatically weaker, his potara fusion as well. Remember, it's more about top power than transformation.

If Goku is 100 versus a 400, clearly the 400 power Goku would add much more to the fusion.

So 2 Vegeta's would be far weaker than 2 Gokus fusing.

Yes, I think the only reasonable answer we can have for Gotenks getting such an absurd boost in power, despite not seemingly gaining much power themselves nor unlocking new transformations as individuals, has to be because of Gotenks unlocking of the transformations.

As I mentioned before, adding transformations to the individual greatly increases the Base Fusions power. This is like that in reverse.

It's not coincidence that Base Gotenks Post Fusion power is now that beyond a Super Saiyan 3 once he unlocks Super Saiyan 3.

I think Base Gotenks is kind of crediting the boys with having Super Saiyan 3 as individuals despite only having it as a fusion.

Base Gotenks Post (Highest Form SSJ3) > Super Saiyan 3 Level
This suggests Goten/Trunks fusion considers them to have a psuedo SSJ3 as individuals.

Base Gotenks Pre (Highest Form SSJ) > Super Saiyan Boys Level

I think this is no coincidence here. Makes sense, huh?

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah some people had retarded theories like Gotenks post having a more perfected fusion dance or something but I think that's BS since Gogeta could go SSJ even with newbie fusees even in Fusion Reborn and had a Blue tier base in Broly, while Gotenks couldn't even turn SSJ at will pre-RoSaT and the dance needs to be perfect for a normal fusion to even be the result. It appears that Gotenks achieving SSj3 was imprinted in the base boys and from then on, Gotenks' multiplier increased similar to Gogeta having a pretty high base in the two movies he appeared in due to his fusees having forms above Super Saiyan.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah some people had retarded theories like Gotenks post having a more perfected fusion dance or something but I think that's BS since Gogeta could go SSJ even with newbie fusees even in Fusion Reborn and had a Blue tier base in Broly, while Gotenks couldn't even turn SSJ at will pre-RoSaT and the dance needs to be perfect for a normal fusion to even be the result. It appears that Gotenks achieving SSj3 was imprinted in the base boys and from then on, Gotenks' multiplier increased similar to Gogeta having a pretty high base in the two movies he appeared in due to his fusees having forms above Super Saiyan.

I've considered that before too. It's not their fault. The author didn't give us much to go off of. I just came up with this theory recently and it's the only one that seems plausible and even it has issues. Fusions not being able to go Super Saiyan was a rule that quickly went away just like Super Saiyan being hard to attain in general for the individual. Tingles in the back is all that's required nowadays haha.

I don't think Gotenks is anywhere near Gogeta, but they went from trash tier to at least somewhat respectable.

I think Super Saiyan Gogeta > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is the most logical approach for sure. And I think Goku and Vegeta quickly surpass Gotenks as individuals due to TOEI hax, but I still think Super Saiyan Gogeta is probably not terribly behind Super Saiyan Vegetto. Why? Goku and Vegeta adoration. That's all fusion really boils down to. "What's cool? Yea, let's do this. Goku and Vegeta are boss. Let's make them mega powerful dude!" It is what it is.

 

[Papasmurf]

I think AT probably ran with Potara Fusion being far above the Dance Fusion in Z going by how much Old Kai insists the Potara has greater effects, the base form of Potara is insanely powerful because of how astounding the Potara is and so on. But in Super he seems to have Vegetto not too far above Gogeta since Galu doesn't seem to worry the weaker Dance Fusion won't be enough against Broly and simply says "we don't have Potaras right now!" and such, though you could argue Broly had only just turned SSJ there and did not yet have the power to press a fused version of Goku and Vegeta to use God forms yet.

Logically with the relatively small edge the adults would have over post-Rosat boys form by form Gogeta shouldn't be above SSJ3 Gotenks as a regular SSJ, but with Vegetto's character in general being inspired by AT seeing designs of Gogeta from the Janemba movie that was in production when he wrote the Super Boo/Vegetto chapters, I think he'd have given Gogeta a lot of the same respect as Vegetto were he to appear in canon. Probably less than Vegetto, but enough to take out Boo in a form lower than SSJ3 I would think.

It is however telling that Goku gets angry that Vegeta shattered his Potara when Boo was still at his prime form, and only suggested Fusion after they tore out the kids and Piccolo after saying "This is all because you shattered the Potara!" which suggests Potara is a much better Fusion and Gogeta might not be enough against Gohan-Boo.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think AT probably ran with Potara Fusion being far above the Dance Fusion in Z going by how much Old Kai insists the Potara has greater effects, the base form of Potara is insanely powerful because of how astounding the Potara is and so on. But in Super he seems to have Vegetto not too far above Gogeta since Galu doesn't seem to worry the weaker Dance Fusion won't be enough against Broly and simply says "we don't have Potaras right now!" and such, though you could argue Broly had only just turned SSJ there and did not yet have the power to press a fused version of Goku and Vegeta to use God forms yet.

Logically with the relatively small edge the adults would have over post-Rosat boys form by form Gogeta shouldn't be above SSJ3 Gotenks as a regular SSJ, but with Vegetto's character in general being inspired by AT seeing designs of Gogeta from the Janemba movie that was in production when he wrote the Super Boo/Vegetto chapters, I think he'd have given Gogeta a lot of the same respect as Vegetto were he to appear in canon. Probably less than Vegetto, but enough to take out Boo in a form lower than SSJ3 I would think.

It is however telling that Goku gets angry that Vegeta shattered his Potara when Boo was still at his prime form, and only suggested Fusion after they tore out the kids and Piccolo after saying "This is all because you shattered the Potara!" which suggests Potara is a much better Fusion and Gogeta might not be enough against Gohan-Boo.

Potara is definitely superior, but all of the evidence we have now doesn't seem like it's likely that it's as superior as it seemed to be suggested initially.

The adults most likely hold a giant edge over the kids.

Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Boys (Post) > Boys (Pre)

The boys are in no way anywhere close to the adults as what seemed to be suggested initially ended up being a gross exaggeration similar to the idea of Kaioshin being some powerful being, all for him to be weaker than Base Saiyans, the idea that the boys actually truly rivaled the adults is something that isn't upheld at all by furthering logic.

Super Saiyan Gogeta should absolutely be able to handle Buuhan based on all of the evidence we have nowadays.

 

[Papasmurf]

The boys are on Cell Games SSJ tier and Goku and Vegeta still aren't above SSJ2 Gohan (CG and pre-Z Sword) as SSJs even by the end of Boo (pre-Super/EoZ). That isn't a gigantic gap, you'd have to stretch that relatively small gap into insane gaps when the two pairs are in their respective Fusions to have SSJ Gotenks being far inferior to base Super Boo and SSJ Gogeta being far above Gohan-Boo who is more than twice as strong as Super Boo.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The boys are on Cell Games SSJ tier and Goku and Vegeta still aren't above SSJ2 Gohan (CG and pre-Z Sword) as SSJs even by the end of Boo (pre-Super/EoZ). That isn't a gigantic gap, you'd have to stretch that relatively small gap into insane gaps when the two pairs are in their respective Fusions to have SSJ Gotenks being far inferior to base Super Boo and SSJ Gogeta being far above Gohan-Boo who is more than twice as strong as Super Boo.

No, the adults are on a CG MSSJ tier, the boys are significantly below that. They are even struggling with the Cell Juniors even after Post RoSaT in the Super manga. That seems to suggest if their Post RoSaT selves can't even manhandle the Cell Jrs, no doubt their Pre-RoSaT selves couldn't either.

They can't be CG Goku level based on the evidence we see. Their sparring sessions were overhyped a bit mainly probably because Gohan was most likely a decent deal weaker then we saw him at the Budokai based on him regaining at least a good deal of his power.

Remember the sparring occurs against an untrained Gohan and a tired Vegeta. We must not take the sparring scenes too far.

 

[Papasmurf]

How tired can Vegeta be? He was training in a gravity level that SSJ Trunks can waltz around like nothing, and we see Gohan and Goten training their asses off with their auras up straight after Videl leaves for Satan City with Gohan visibly strained.

Also it's worth considering that it was a 7 on 2 fight, and Goten and Trunks were probably shocked that 7 guys almost on par with Super Saiyans came out of nowhere. Think of how Goku was seemingly far above Yajirobe post-Tambourine based on the latter's reactions to Goku beating Tamb's ass, but he and Yaji fought evenly for a while even though Goku was angry. Goten and Trunks were probably not expecting some beasts that came out of a forest to have Super Saiyan tier power.

Also it's worth considering that Goten and Trunks were probably not their peak selves post-Rosat due to Goku and Vegeta not being around to train them often with them being on Beerus' planet all the time. Gohan got weaker from not training post-Boo, so it could be argued Goten and Trunks lost their RoSaT gains and the small gains they got pre-Budokai due to laziness.

 

[FeatsofPower]

How tired can Vegeta be? He was training in a gravity level that SSJ Trunks can waltz around like nothing, and we see Gohan and Goten training their asses off with their auras up straight after Videl leaves for Satan City with Gohan visibly strained.

Also it's worth considering that it was a 7 on 2 fight, and Goten and Trunks were probably shocked that 7 guys almost on par with Super Saiyans came out of nowhere. Think of how Goku was seemingly far above Yajirobe post-Tambourine based on the latter's reactions to Goku beating Tamb's ass, but he and Yaji fought evenly for a while even though Goku was angry. Goten and Trunks were probably not expecting some beasts that came out of a forest to have Super Saiyan tier power.

Also it's worth considering that Goten and Trunks were probably not their peak selves post-Rosat due to Goku and Vegeta not being around to train them often with them being on Beerus' planet all the time. Gohan got weaker from not training post-Boo, so it could be argued Goten and Trunks lost their RoSaT gains and the small gains they got pre-Budokai due to laziness.

Tired enough to make vastly weaker fighters capable of holding their own.

Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Boys (Post) > Base Boys (Pre)

The boys post rosat aren't 1.5 Cell Junior since that would allow them to make short work of them. The boys post rosat and possibly even making some minimal gains are more likely less than 1.33 Cell Juniors. Which proved they aren't as strong as people thought.

 

[Papasmurf]

In Super Yamoshi couldn't KO a bunch of Oozarus as a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God in time according to Shenlong's account of the legend of the SSJ/SSJG, I'm not sure being ganged up on is as easy to handle in Super as it is in Z. After all Merged Zamasu logically should be able to solo 2 SSJBs and a SSJ3 tier SSJ2 in under a minute going by Z logic but Gowasu worried they wouldn't "even last an hour" in Super and a bunch of sub-SSJ tier fighters were beating LSSJ Kale. Fatigued or not if Nappa could solo the Z senshi if not for Vegeta forcing him to wait for 3 hours, LSSJ Kale should be able to kill a bunch of weaker Pride Troopers with one mouth blast or a Ki explosion. Hell they shouldn't even be able to scratch her, but we saw they were visibly damaging her with ray guns (lol Sorbet) even though she wasn't letting her guard down.