Kid Gohan & Majin Vegeta/Goku SSj2

[Victorious]

It's the anti thesis of logic.

In order to make large claims, you need to have large amounts of evidence. So you're claiming Gohan's dormant power changed since the Cell Games. You need to provide some evidence that proves it otherwise it's just a fallacy.

I already provided the evidence and any fan of DBZ should be aware of it. Gohan's dormant powers have a ceiling which correlate to his standard power. Or else he would have been the one to defeat Nappa, Freeza, the Androids, etc. Because the powers he displayed at the Cell Games are waaaaaayyy beyond those guys.

I don't know if you are stupid or if you're just playing stupid in some shitty attempt to salvage a debate, but either way I think most reasonable people would agree with me.

 

[kriss-]

It's the anti thesis of logic.

In order to make large claims, you need to have large amounts of evidence. So you're claiming Gohan's dormant power changed since the Cell Games. You need to provide some evidence that proves it otherwise it's just a fallacy.

I already provided the evidence and any fan of DBZ should be aware of it. Gohan's dormant powers have a ceiling which correlate to his standard power. Or else he would have been the one to defeat Nappa, Freeza, the Androids, etc. Because the powers he displayed at the Cell Games are waaaaaayyy beyond those guys.

I don't know if you are stupid or if you're just playing stupid in some shitty attempt to salvage a debate, but either way I think most reasonable people would agree with me.

You provided no evidence.

Gohan's dormant power is entirely exclusive of his standard power. Hence why his dormant power can fall asleep, but it can always be tapped into once more, like Elder Kaioshin did for Gohan. Whereas his standard power can change to various degrees -but it will always fall short of his dormant power unless he learns to master it like he did at the Cell Games.

I didn't know this was a debate, I thought it was me kicking your ass.

 

[Victorious]

So now you're saying Gohan's dormant power doesn't have a ceiling?

 

[kriss-]

So now you're saying Gohan's dormant power doesn't have a ceiling?

Nope.

 

[Victorious]

Your idea of Gohan's dormant power being completely unrelated to his standard power renders your whole OP completely pointless and wrong, lol. Shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[kriss-]

Your idea of Gohan's dormant power being completely unrelated to his standard power renders your whole OP pointless and wrong, lol. Shooting yourself in the foot.

Gohan's dormant power has a ceiling and is his full power. He learns to master this at the Cell Games and that's the reason he became so powerful. However, he lost that ability and was unable to control it anymore. So he went back to being his normal, not so powerful self. However he can still tap into it if he goes into a frenzy.

That full dormant power will always be there. They are related in that sense.

But not in the sense that if normal Gohan gets weaker, than so does his dormant power.

So no, it doesn't render my whole OP pointless and wrong because when Gohan wants to use his dormant power to defeat Boo, he's referencing that power that fell asleep once more, the power he used during the Cell Games. It's there, he's just unable to willingly tap into it anymore.

 

[Victorious]

OK, so Gohan's dormant power has a ceiling, you said it was fully mastered and shown in the Cell

Games. That's the ceiling. If so then we have post Zeta Gohan and Ultimate Gohan surpassing his dormant power. If so I can buy that, but it's stupid. Because I don't think someone's dormant power should be lower than their standard power.

You also contradicted yourself in another post and said Elder Kaioshin brought it out [which was Ultimate Gohan].​

 

[kriss-]

OK, so Gohan's dormant power has a ceiling, you said it was fully mastered and shown in the Cell

Games. That's the ceiling. If so then we have post Zeta Gohan and Ultimate Gohan surpassing his dormant power. If so I can buy that, but it's stupid. Because I don't think someone's dormant power should be lower than their standard power.

You also contradicted yourself in another post and said Elder Kaioshin brought it out [which was Ultimate Gohan].​

Good, at least we've stopped bashing heads.

I debunked the 'speculated' strength of Zeta Gohan -at least to a degree that I'm satisfied with, here: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3845

Gohan can have better muscle strength than Goku but be overwhelmingly weaker when Chi is involved. So the entire argument of him lifting the Z-Sword better has no relevancy to how he compares to Goku on equal levels.

Elder Kaioshin stated -prior to performing the ritual, that he would 'bring Gohan way past his limits'. In other-words, he would bring him beyond what his dormant power was capable of giving him, which is evidently, what he was capable of doing at the Cell Games. So when he states that 'his dormant powers are enormous', it's just him restoring what he lost, which was an enormous amount of energy.

After that is finished, he than brings Gohan way above his normal limits, and transforms him into Ultimate Gohan.​

 

[Victorious]

Well at least i don't view your theory as contradicty anymore, but it's still a major stretch. It requires Elder Kaioshin's statment about Gohan having "massive dormant power" to be describing a power below SSJ2 Goku. At that point in time in the story it doesnt make much sense. It requires Zeta Gohan to not be more powerful than Goku in equal form despite swinging the sword around effortlessly and Goku struggling with it. It requires Kaioshin and Goku to have huge brain farts when conjuring up a fight between Fat Buu and post Zeta Gohan... For some reason I don't think Goku would speculate whether or not a person below his SSJ2 could beat Fat Buu. And it also requires 10 year old Kid Gohan to be the one and only coincidental time where he learned to access his full dormant power prior to the Elder Kaioshin's power up. And that during his fights with Feeza he only could acesss .0001% of his dormant power, yet by the Cell Games he could access 100%. So This view may not contradict itself but it's a huge strech and most people won't buy it.

 

[kriss-]

Well at least your theory is not contradicty anymore, but it's still a major stretch. It requires Elder Kaioshin's statment about Gohan having "massive dormant power" to be describing a power below SSJ2 Goku. At that point in time in the story it doesnt make much sense. It requires Zeta Gohan to not be more powerful than Goku in equal form despite swinging the sword around effortlessly and Goku struggling with it. It requires Kaioshin and Goku to have massive brain farts when conjuring up a fight between Fat Buu and post Zeta Gohan... For some reason I don't think Goku would speculate whether or not a person below his SSJ2 could beat Fat Buu. And it also requires 10 year old Kid Gohan to be the one and only coincidental time where he learned to access his full dormant power prior to the Elder Kaioshin's power up. This may not contradict itself but it's a huge strech and most people won't buy it.

There is nothing wrong with Elder Kaioshins statement because all of the Kais -up until that point, were completely astounded by the power of Teen Gohan Mssj; which isn't much to begin with. Elder Kaioshin never saw anybody of that particular calibre yet, that's why he would be more flabbergasted of it than say... someone like Goku.

I debunked the 'speculated' strength of Zeta Gohan -at least to a degree that I'm satisfied with, here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3845

Gohan can have better muscle strength than Goku but be overwhelmingly weaker when Chi is involved. So the entire argument of him lifting the Z-Sword better has no relevancy to how he compares to Goku on equal levels. Further-more, Goku called Majin Boo's strength a 'lie' and this works tremendously well with his comparison of Zeta Gohan to Majin Boo. He can't really be certain about anything, and he wasn't when he actually fought Boo himself.

Gohan spent a tremendous amount of time training with his father in preparation for the Cell Games. He didn't spend any time training afterwards. So it's only logical that the Cell Games would be the only time he had full access to his dormant power. It shouldn't be coincidental at all.

 

[Victorious]

If this how you feel then so be it but i aint buying it, it's a huge reach but we'll just leave it at that. At least it's self consistent but so is mine and it doesnt require all the reaching.

 

[kriss-]

If this how you feel then so be it but i aint buying it, it's a huge reach but we'll just leave it at that. At least it's self consistent but so is mine and it doesnt require all the reaching.

I'm not sure what type of reaching you're referring to.

 

[Victorious]

Zeta Gohan being weaker than Goku in equal forms is a reach. Gohan not being able to tap into 1% of his dormant power pre RoSaT but 100% post RoSaT is a reach. Goku speculating whether or not a power weaker than his SSJ2 could compete with Fat Buu is a reach .A dormant power not being relative or related to current power is a reach. The list goes on.

 

[kriss-]

Zeta Gohan being weaker than Goku in equal forms is a reach. Gohan not being able to tap into 1% of his dormant power pre RoSaT but 100% post RoSaT is a reach. Goku speculating whether or not a power weaker than his SSJ2 could compete with Fat Buu is a reach .A dormant power not being relative or related to current powers is a reach.

It's not a reach at all.

I explained why he didn't increase much overall. His muscle strength increased, but that has limits. It's impossible for him to naturally, keep increasing his muscle strength to a degree where it surpasses Goku's Chi strength. That's a contradiction to Toriyama's statements about muscle strength on it's own having limits, and for one to get stronger, they need to resort to Chi training.

Gohan did muscle training, he states it. He did no Chi training. It's a fallacy for him to have increased so drastically on muscle training alone and completely goes against what Toriyama states.

Gotenks Base Post surpassing his previous Super Saiyan form is a reach, but to some, the plot demands it. In a work of fiction, there is no such thing as something being considered a 'reach'. Gohan did not have 100% access to his dormant power until he turned Super Saiyan 2, which occurs after the training in the RoSaT. Because he did no training afterwards, he lost the ability to be this powerful.

Goku previously states that Majin Boo's strength is like a lie. No wonder Goku would speculate about whether or not Gohan could defeat him.

There is no reason to ascertain that dormant power changes if his current power changes. Everything goes against that actually. We see that Teen Gohan is able to get stronger and weaker, but his dormant power he used to 'defeat Cell' is still there. Elder Kaioshin taps into this power and is steadily releasing it prior to Gohan completing the ritual, so obviously something is still there.

To ascertain that his dormant power actually decreased in relative comparison to his base power level, just defeats the purpose of Elder Kaioshins statement. Because he's unleashing something that is just that much less stupendous. That, and 'assuming' that his current power affects his dormant power isn't backed by any evidence whatsoever, is actually a reach in itself.

 

[Victorious]

I explained why he didn't increase much overall. His muscle strength increased, but that has limits. It's impossible for him to naturally, keep increasing his muscle strength to a degree where it surpasses Goku's Chi strength. That's a contradiction to Toriyama's statements about muscle strength on it's own having limits, and for one to get stronger, they need to resort to Chi training.

Gohan did muscle training, he states it. He did no Chi training. It's a fallacy for him to have increased so drastically on muscle training alone and completely goes against what Toriyama states.

Well I dunno about all that contrived bullshit, but I do know is that strength and ki typically match. More strength = More ki and the visa versa. If it was just 'Muscle strength' and not ki matching it then that would render Kaioshin's question about what Gohan's power would be like being a Super Saiyan meaningless.

Goku previously states that Majin Boo's strength is like a lie. No wonder Goku would speculate about whether or not Gohan could defeat him.

Goku knows SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was utterly no match for Fat Buu, so for him to speculate about whether or not a power weaker than SSj2 Majin Vegeta was as powerful as Buu makes Goku retarded.

There is no reason to ascertain that dormant power changes if his current power changes. Everything goes against that actually. We see that Teen Gohan is able to get stronger and weaker, but his dormant power he used to 'defeat Cell' is still there. Elder Kaioshin taps into this power and is steadily releasing it prior to Gohan completing the ritual, so obviously something is still there.

Uhh Something is still there because it hasnt been fully released yet. Not to mention mid ritual when Gohan powers up this power is already suggested to be an incredible power in the eyes of Goku and even threat to Super Buu. So You make no sense.

And Actually everything suggests dormant power has a ceiling set relative to standard power. Goku had his dormant power released when he drank the God Water, but that would only be an increase of 100 battle power points at best. Krillin and Gohan already had their dormant power released by Guru and they when from 1,500 to 10,000+. According to you though Gohan's true dormant power at this time is a power great enough to kill 'Super' Perfect Cell, lol

To ascertain that his dormant power actually decreased in relative comparison to his base power level, just defeats the purpose of Elder Kaioshins statement. Because he's unleashing something that is just that much less stupendous. That, and 'assuming' that his current power affects his dormant power isn't backed by any evidence whatsoever, is actually a reach in itself.[/quot

e]

There's no reach here. You think he's talking about a power weaker than SSJ2 Goku. Most people including myself already have standard SSJ2 post Zeta Gohan leagues above SSJ2 Goku, so the 'extremely incredible' dormant power of Gohan Elder Kaioshin senses in my view is well above SSJ3 Goku, making it an actual stupendous power. Weaker than SSJ2 Goku? What a joke.

 

[kriss-]

Well I dunno about all that contrived bullshit, but I do know is that strength and ki typically match. More strength = More ki and the visa versa. If it was just 'Muscle strength' and not ki matching it then that would render Kaioshin's question about what Gohan's power would be like being a Super Saiyan meaningless.

Slow down, and don't refer to anything as 'bullshit'. You are twisting Toriyama's statements to suit your theories. He clearly states that muscle strength on its own has limits. After those limits are reached, one must undergo Chi training to further their strength. Therefore, by muscle training alone, it's impossible for Gohan's physical strength to surpass Goku's Chi strength, especially if Goku has shown a magnitude of it when he was able to go as far as Super Saiyan 3.

The two components are related to a degree, but not as far as you're trying to make it appear to be.

Goku knows SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was utterly no match for Fat Buu, so for him to speculate about whether or not a power weaker than SSj2 Majin Vegeta was as powerful as Buu makes Goku retarded.

All Goku knows is that Vegeta died against Boo. You're jumping to conclusions that determine that he knows exactly what took place; an event where if someone else was there to clean up Boo's parts, than it would have been a victory, rendering your entire argument moot.

Goku also doesn't know how strong Boo truly is because he called his strength a lie, this makes it impossible for Goku to determine -with accuracy, whether Gohan is actually strong enough to defeat Boo.

a) Goku never seen Gohan display his full power with the Zeta-Sword.
b) Gohan did no Chi training to improve himself.

Conclusion: Gohan did not improve much overall and the Zeta-Sword was simply over-hyped and did not live up to its expectations.

Uhh Something is still there because it hasnt been full released yet. Not to mention mid ritual when Gohan powers up this power is already suggested to be an incredible power in the eyes of Goku and even threat to Super Buu. So You make no sense.

And Actually everything suggests dormant power has a ceiling set relative to standard power. Goku had his dormant power released when he drank the God Water, but that would only be an increase of 100 battle power points at best. Krillin and Gohan already had their dormant power released by Guru and they when from 1,500 to 10,000+. According to you though Gohan's true dormant power at this time is a power great enough to kill 'Super' Perfect Cell, lol

Goku thought that someone being strong enough to one shot Organic Frieza was considered incredible. Keep reaching.

Nothing suggests dormant power has a ceiling set relative to standard power. It's a ever-changing concept until Dragonball Z ends. It's at the end of the story is when the characters reached their limits and couldn't get any stronger, Toriyama says this several times. By the admission of the story, their limits during the Boo Saga is what they were acquiring the entire time. They were only able to tap into it at various degrees through the arcs. However, they never fully achieved the full extent of

You are also twisting my words.

Uhh there's no reach here. You think he's talking about a power weaker than SSJ2 Goku. Most people including myself already have standard SSJ2 post Zeta Gohan leagues above SSJ2 Goku, so the 'extremely incredible' dormant power of Gohan Elder Kaioshin senses in my view is well above SSJ3 Goku, making it an actual stupendous power. Weaker than SSJ2 Goku? What a joke.

Nothing infers Gohan Ssj2 increased much overall and this actually doesn't work with Toriyama's official statements. He didn't undergo proper Chi training to increase his strength and focused solely on muscle training, would would actually hinder him.

Elder Kaioshin never seen Goku SSj3 and he's never sensed a fighter of Gohans calibre. During the entire Majin Boo Saga, Kaioshins have been astounded by his power, but this pales in comparison to the likes of Goku/Majin Vegeta. Gohan lost a tremendous amount of power since the Cell Games so it's only logical that he would remark what he was restoring as being incredible.

Goku was considering in performing the Metamoran ritual with Ultimate Gohan. The only way for this to be possible is if he's close to Gohan's power at some form. Because Goku was unable to perform the ritual with the people in otherworld due to their low battle power -even though we know that he can suppress himself in his base form, means that Goku would [/i]have[/i] be close to Gohan in some form; Super Saiyan 3.

There is more than just one way to look at things. You have your own theories, but no-one has to follow them. A common norm doesn't make the theory correct. 'Base Saiyans > Frieza' was totally correct a few years back, but now it no longer is.

Just because the general populas here won't be convinced by my theories doesn't make them incorrect, and it has no influence as to whether or not I will believe them myself.

 

[Victorious]

Slow down, and don't refer to anything as 'bullshit'. You are twisting Toriyama's statements to suit your theories. He clearly states that muscle strength on its own has limits. After those limits are reached, one must undergo Chi training to further their strength. Therefore, by muscle training alone, it's impossible for Gohan's physical strength to surpass Goku's Chi strength, especially if Goku has shown a magnitude of it when he was able to go as far as Super Saiyan 3.

Kaioshin is talking about power and power ups, not 'muscle training' (whatever that means). He also says Gohan has aquired "that much power", as in a lot more power than he had before.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

The only way to make sense of it is that Gohan's muscle increased therefore his ki or power increased and the Vice Versa. Because Goku and Kaioshin are discussing hypotheticals of power. Why would they be comparing him to Buu if only his arm strength increased? Why in the Tosh universe is everyone retarded?

All Goku knows is that Vegeta died against Boo. You're jumping to conclusions that determine that he knows exactly what took place; an event where if someone else was there to clean up Boo's parts, than it would have been a victory, rendering your entire argument moot.

Goku also doesn't know how strong Boo truly is because he called his strength a lie, this makes it impossible for Goku to determine -with accuracy, whether Gohan is actually strong enough to defeat Boo.]

a) Goku never seen Gohan display his full power with the Zeta-Sword.

1st off Goku saw base post Zeta Gohan's full power so he can calculate his full power on that. That's what the whole Kaioshin and Goku comparison to Buu was for, they were referring to Gohan's Super Saiyan power.

Secondly Goku fought Buu, which is certainly as good as sensing him...Assuming Buu doesnt have more power than what he showed in his fight with Goku, and there's no reason to believe he does. Even if Buu's ki was totally unsensible it that means nothing in this context and what you're trying to argue for. Goku know's Buu's limits already since he's fought him, and he knows SSj2 Majin Vegeta had no chance either.

Kamiccolo fought Android #17. Kamiccolo when he was Piccolo saw SSJ Future Trunks get one shotted by #17. Now your argument is the equivalent that because Kamiccolo can't sense #17, Kamiccolo would suddenly speculate whether or not a power say on SSJ Future Trunks in the Mecha arc or mecha Freeza was as powerful as #17? Sorry but no. This is just another attempt in the Tosh universe to turn characters into blithering morons. If you want to think AT wanted his characters to be 60 IQ morons that can't make simple and common sensical comparisons based on prior events then that's your choice, but i'm not buying it.

Nothing suggests dormant power has a ceiling set relative to standard power. It's a ever-changing concept until Dragonball Z ends.

Well that renders your whole OP meaningless (as I said before )if it's an ever changing concept. Because you're the one that's arguing it's always static, not me.

It's at the end of the story is when the characters reached their limits and couldn't get any stronger, Toriyama says this several times. By the admission of the story, their limits during the Boo Saga is what they were acquiring the entire time. They were only able to tap into it at various degrees through the arcs. However, they never fully achieved the full extent of

Well then you just contradicted yourself again. This is getting old. You said Gohan's pinnacle dormant power was shown in the Cell Games.

Nothing infers Gohan Ssj2 increased much overall and this actually doesn't work with Toriyama's official statements. He didn't undergo proper Chi training to increase his strength and focused solely on muscle training, would would actually hinder him.

This is just your contrived opinion. Nowhere is it said that Zeta Sword training doesnt include 'ki training'. A vague and never defined concept in the first place. Kaioshin and Goku are making power comparison's though when comparing him to Buu, that much we know. They arent wondering if he can beat Buu in an arm wrestling contest.

Elder Kaioshin never seen Goku SSj3 and he's never sensed a fighter of Gohans calibre. During the entire Majin Boo Saga, Kaioshins have been astounded by his power, but this pales in comparison to the likes of Goku/Majin Vegeta. Gohan lost a tremendous amount of power since the Cell Games so it's only logical that he would remark what he was restoring as being incredible.

Well he's never seen Goku's SSJ3 but he still knows Goku going to help Gohan can't take on Buutenks. Are you saying that's a comparison that refers to base Goku? lol What about his statements on how powerful Gokhan will be? Would that not have to include knowing Goku's full power?

He obviously can sense suppressed and hidden power both. If not his comments are relegated to asspulls and guesses, and I don't like that. I like to take his statements seriously and think they hold value.

Hell sensing a suppressed power should be easier than a 'hidden/dormant power.'

Goku was considering in performing the Metamoran ritual with Ultimate Gohan. The only way for this to be possible is if he's close to Gohan's power at some form. Because Goku was unable to perform the ritual with the people in otherworld due to their low battle power -even though we know that he can suppress himself in his base form, means that Goku would [/i]have[/i] be close to Gohan in some form; Super Saiyan 3.

Well i don't see how this is relevant to the discussion at all, but if Goku was going to fuse Metamorian style Gohan he'd do it in base anyway IMO. I'm not even sure a SSj3 can merge with Gohan in base. I think they need to be in base. Why else would Goku have both Goten and Trunks be in the same form when they fuse If they don't have to be?

Just because the general populas here won't be convinced by my theories doesn't make them incorrect, and it has no influence as to whether or not I will believe them myself.

Your theories are contrived BS that are never implied. You can't even form a consistent argument as far as I can tell. All you can do is argue that they haven't been fully discredited, but anyone can do that. I could say Dr. Briefs is the most powerful being in the Dragon Ball universe and say it hasnt been refuted. It hasn't has it? Nope, he even never fought anyone in DB. I think he's the most powerful being in the DB universe and is only suppressing himself because fighting mere mortals would be boring in his mind. I could say SPC allowed himself to be killed by SSJ2 Kid Gohan in their final KHH clash because at the last moment he had an episode of manic depression and no longer wanted to live. Could you refute that? Nope. That doesn't mean it was ever implied. That's basically your argument style. Coming up with far fetched asspull theories that convolute the story. It's pitiful IMO. No wonder why I'm the only one that even wastes time debating with you on this topic. The others know it's a futile effort.

 

[kriss-]

Kaioshin is talking about power and power ups, not 'muscle training' (whatever that means). He also says Gohan has aquired "that much power", as in a lot more power than he had before.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

The only way to make sense of it is that Gohan's muscle increased therefore his ki or power increased. Because Goku and Kaioshin are discussing hypotheticals of power. Why would they be comparing him to Buu if only his arm strength increased? Why in the Tosh universe is everyone retarded?

Kaioshin was wrong the entire time about the Z-Sword.

In order to get stronger, one must use Chi training, all Gohan did was swing a heavy sword.

[<--- Insert Common Sense Here ---->]

1st off Goku saw base post Zeta Gohan's full power so he can calculate his full power on that. That's what the whole Kaioshin and Goku comparison to Buu was for, they were referring to Gohan's Super Saiyan power.

Secondly Goku fought Buu, which is certainly as good as sensing him...Assuming Buu doesnt have more power than what he showed in his fight with Goku, and there's no reason to believe he does. Even if Buu's ki was totally unsensible it that means nothing in this context and what you're trying to argue for. Goku know's Buu's limits already since he's fought him, and he knows SSj2 Majin Vegeta had no chance either.

Kamiccolo fought Android #17. Kamiccolo when he was Piccolo saw SSJ Future Trunks get one shotted by #17. Now your argument is the equivalent that because Kamiccolo can't sense #17, Kamiccolo would suddenly speculate whether or not a power say on SSJ Future Trunks in the Mecha arc or mecha Freeza was as powerful as #17? Sorry but no. This is just another attempt in the Tosh universe to turn characters into blithering morons. If you want to think AT wanted his characters to be 60 IQ morons that can't make simple and common sensical comparisons based on prior events then that's your choice, but i'm not buying it.

Goku never saw his full power through Z-Sword training. All he saw was Gohan do a temporary burst as he was undergoing the ritual that transformed him into his Mystic self.

Goku calls his strength a lie, so no.

All Goku knows is that Vegeta died against Boo. You're jumping to conclusions that determine that he knows exactly what took place; an event where if someone else was there to clean up Boo's parts, than it would have been a victory, rendering your entire argument moot.

Characters can judge a person strength based on their movements. Piccolo fought Android 17 prior to merging with Kami, so he would have a pretty good estimate on where he stands and whether or not he would stand a change.

Fat Boo & Goku SSj3 weren't taking the fight seriously during their bout', and Goku calls his Boo a lie, so it's hard to determine just how powerful he actually is; otherwise there wouldn't be a reason for Goku to call his strength a lie to begin with or ponder whether or not Gohan could defeat him. And again, Gohan did no Chi training.

Well that renders your whole OP meaningless (as I said before )if it's an ever changing concept. Because you're the one that's arguing it's always static, not me.

Characters have a set of full potential. They progress to reach their limits through Dragonball & Dragonball Z.

It's not an ever changing concept and it does not render my OP meaningless, because:

a) Gohan reached his during the Cell Games. He had that same amount of potential through rage bursts with Raditz, Nappa & Frieza, but you're acting like a fucking imbecile to assume he can access ALL of it at any given time. He fucking' can't, but it's still there.
b) Goku reached his limits during the Boo Saga. Whereas -every other time, his 'apparent limits' were contradicted. His limits during the Boo Arc were stated by 3 different interviews by Toriyama to be his ABSOLUTE limits and he couldn't get any stronger.

Well then you just contradicted yourself again. This is getting old. You said Gohan's pinnacle dormant power was shown in the Cell Games.

It was.

Elder Kaioshin brought him WAY PAST his limits. There was no contradiction there.

This is just your contrived opinion. Nowhere is it said that Zeta Sword training doesnt include 'ki training'. A vague and never defined concept in the first place. Kaioshin and Goku are making power comparison's though when comparing him to Buu, that much we know. They arent wondering if he can beat Buu in an arm wrestling contest.

All Gohan did was swing a heavy sword. Insert [Common sense here].

Well he's never seen Goku's SSJ3 but he still knows Goku going to help Gohan can't take on Buutenks. Are you saying that's a comparison that refers to base Goku? lol What about his statements on how powerful Gokhan will be? Would that not have to include knowing Goku's full power?

He obviously can sense suppressed and hidden power both. If not his comments are relegated to asspulls and guesses, and I don't like that. I like to take his statements seriously and think they hold value.

Hell sensing a suppressed power should be easier than a 'hidden/dormant power.'

What? I'm not even sure what the fuck you're saying here.

Well i don't see how this is relevant to the discussion at all, but if Goku was going to fuse Metamorian style Gohan he'd do it in base anyway IMO. I'm not even sure a SSj3 can merge with Gohan in base. I think they need to be in base. Why else would Goku have both Goten and Trunks be in the same form when they fuse If they don't have to be?

Incorrect.

Goten & Trunks tried to merge as Super Saiyans but they couldn't control their Chi properly, it was too hard for them Pre-RoSaT. They countered this by being able to master the Metamoran and transform AFTER fusing. Goku wasn't aware of this since he didn't suggest it in the first place and asked them to merge as Super Saiyans.

Goku says that to perform fusion dance the two fusees must be "fairly close in power". You can see that that's slightly different to the "exactly the same power" they need when actually fusing.

So for two people to fuse, they need to be close in power, and once that requirement is met, they need to match their Ki to be exactly the same as each other. This is further backed up by Goku saying he couldn't fuse with anyone because there was no one on par with him in the afterlife, despite Goku being able to suppress. Since Goku planned to fuse with Gohan via the fusion dance, that would make Ultimate Gohan "fairly close in power" to at least some form of Goku, likely SSj3.

All evidence suggests Goku would perform fusion as a SSj3.

ur theories are contrived BS that are never implied. You can't even form a consistent argument as far as I can tell. All you can do is argue that they haven't been fully discredited, but anyone can do that. I could say Dr. Briefs is the most powerful being in the Dragon Ball universe and say it hasnt been refuted. It hasn't has it? Nope, he even never fought anyone in DB. I think he's the most powerful being in the DB universe and is only suppressing himself because fighting mere mortals would be boring in his mind. I could say SPC allowed himself to be killed by SSJ2 Kid Gohan in their final KHH clash because at the last moment he had an episode of manic depression and no longer wanted to live. Could you refute that? Nope. That doesn't mean it was ever implied. That's basically your argument style. Coming up with far fetched asspull theories that convolute the story. It's pitiful IMO. No wonder why I'm the only won that even wastes time debating with you on this topic. The others know it's a futile effort.

Incorrect.

My arguments begin at the beginning of wherever the theory starts and continues in linear progression as the statements and feats and story progress. You assume many different things that aren't implied and are contradicted by the author and the larger context of the scenes.

Actually, I'm involved in about 4 debates right now. There are actually no other debates that occur on this forum because it's not active enough, and hasn't been somewhat active until I came.

So please, kindly fuck off.

 

[Victorious]

Kaioshin was wrong the entire time about the Z-Sword.

In order to get stronger, one must use Chi training, all Gohan did was swing a heavy sword.

[<--- Insert Common Sense Here ---->]

And there's no evidence Zeta Sword Training wasnt ki training as well. Both Goku and Kaioshin are referring to power when they are appraising Gohan, not 'muscle strength'.

Characters can judge a person strength based on their movements. Piccolo fought Android 17 prior to merging with Kami, so he would have a pretty good estimate on where he stands and whether or not he would stand a change.

Fat Boo & Goku SSj3 weren't taking the fight seriously during their bout', and Goku calls his Boo a lie, so it's hard to determine just how powerful he actually is; otherwise there wouldn't be a reason for Goku to call his strength a lie to begin with or ponder whether or not Gohan could defeat him. And again, Gohan did no Chi training.

A. Goku wasn't going all out but there's no reason to think Fat Buu wasnt. And both were at full power. Goku knows how powerful Fat Buu is, that's how he can tell Buu's ki is a lie you nitwit. He can tell it doesn't match Fat Buu's fighting ability. Goku knows Fat Buu's fighting ability.
Piccolo fought #17 a lot less time than Goku fought Fat Buu. Piccolo was done in 1 hit. Fighting someone gives you an understanding where they stack. Your argument that Goku has no clue about Fat Buu's ability is laughable and flat out wrong. He knows where Fat Buu stacks

B. Goku knows SSJ2 Vegeta is no match for Fatso. So to compare a power weaker than SSj2 Goku and not be sure if it's as great as Fat Buu makes Goku retarded. Everyone's a retard in the Tosh verse, lol.

It's not an ever changing concept and it does not render my OP meaningless, because:

You said it was an ever changing concept the post before. Have you made up your mind yet? lol It can only be one or another right?.

a) Gohan reached his during the Cell Games. He had that same amount of potential through rage bursts with Raditz, Nappa & Frieza, but you're acting like a fucking imbecile to assume he can access ALL of it at any given time. He fucking' can't, but it's still there.

Well Gohan already had his dormant power realeased by Guru but it wasn't a power capable of killing SPC.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P2.3-4
Context: Kuririn believes that Gohan’s Saiyan blood means he’ll have more hidden power than he had.
Kuririn: “I had this much dormant power. You’ve got Saiyan blood, so I think it’s safe to have high expectations!”

Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P7.4
Context: the Great Elder has his hand on Gohan’s head, sensing his hidden power.
Great Elder: “This is incredible… You have tremendous latent power… You are not an Earthling, are you…?”

Sorry. Dormant power is clearly non static. This power does not match his Cell Games power.

Your argument is basically nonsense. "He has static dormant power, but he can't access all of it because of where he is at the time". This is the same as saying it's non static. Dormant power is clearly non static for Gohan, it changes based on how much he has trained, where he currently is at the time, etc. I agree Gohan has always had the same "ultimate potential" since his day of birth, that's not the argument here. That's what you would need to show. All evidence shows Gohan's dormant power fluctuates thoughout the series, and is related to where he is at the time.

b) Goku reached his limits during the Boo Saga. Whereas -every other time, his 'apparent limits' were contradicted. His limits during the Boo Arc were stated by 3 different interviews by Toriyama to be his ABSOLUTE limits and he couldn't get any stronger.

Well Goku's gotten has stronger via AT past the Buu arc so whatever AT said in his interviews that means nothing.

What? I'm not even sure what the fuck you're saying here.

How does Elder Kaioshin know that a combination of Goku and Gohan can't beat Buutenks? He must know Goku's power right?
Also how does he know where the fusion of Goku and Gohan will stack, if he doesn't know Goku's power? So he knows Goku's power.

Incorrect.

Goten & Trunks tried to merge as Super Saiyans but they couldn't control their Chi properly, it was too hard for them Pre-RoSaT. They countered this by being able to master the Metamoran and transform AFTER fusing. Goku wasn't aware of this since he didn't suggest it in the first place and asked them to merge as Super Saiyans.

Goku says that to perform fusion dance the two fusees must be "fairly close in power". You can see that that's slightly different to the "exactly the same power" they need when actually fusing.

So for two people to fuse, they need to be close in power, and once that requirement is met, they need to match their Ki to be exactly the same as each other. This is further backed up by Goku saying he couldn't fuse with anyone because there was no one on par with him in the afterlife, despite Goku being able to suppress. Since Goku planned to fuse with Gohan via the fusion dance, that would make Ultimate Gohan "fairly close in power" to at least some form of Goku, likely SSj3.

All evidence suggests Goku would perform fusion as a SSj3..

Goten and Trunks are close in power, but they don't need to be at full power to fuse with one another, which is their SSJ power and is 50x their base power. They can fuse at base or SSJ. So i don't see why Goku couldnt do the Metamorian fusion at base with Gohan. It has no bearing on where the fusion would come out, right? Gohan could just suppress himself to Goku's base level to to the Metamorian.

But anyway, this is another topic.

Incorrect.

My arguments begin at the beginning of wherever the theory starts and continues in linear progression as the statements and feats and story progress. You assume many different things that aren't implied and are contradicted by the author and the larger context of the scenes.

Actually, I'm involved in about 4 debates right now. There are actually no other debates that occur on this forum because it's not active enough, and hasn't been somewhat active until I came.

So please, kindly fuck off.

Sorry but your arguments are contrived based on no evidence, anti logical, turn characters to idiots, and contradict one another.

 

[kriss-]

And there's no evidence Zeta Sword Training wasnt ki training as well. Both Goku and Kaioshin are referring to power when they are appraising Gohan, not 'muscle strength'.

There is.

Gohan says his 'muscle strength increased. Toriyama intentionally says 'muscle strength', as opposed to just saying Gohan became more powerful. There is a clear distinction here.

Kaioshin assumes that it's supposed to make him the greatest fighter in the Universe, Gohan says it was over-rated.

A. Goku wasn't going all out but there's no reason to think Fat Buu wasnt. And both were at full power. Goku knows how powerful Fat Buu is, that's how he can tell Buu's ki is a lie you nitwit. He can tell it doesn't match Fat Buu's fighting ability. Goku knows Fat Buu's fighting ability.
Piccolo fought #17 a lot less time than Goku fought Fat Buu. Piccolo was done in 1 hit. Fighting someone gives you an understanding where they stack. Your argument that Goku has no clue about Fat Buu's ability is laughable and flat out wrong. He knows where Fat Buu stacks

B. Goku knows SSJ2 Vegeta is no match for Fatso. So to compare a power weaker than SSj2 Goku and not be sure if it's as great as Fat Buu makes Goku retarded. Everyone's a retard in the Tosh verse, lol.

a) 1. Fat Boo was clearly having fun and enjoying the fight. There is no evidence that he was going all out.

a) 2. Goku calls his strength a lie. That's a pretty self explanatory statement.

In every other scenario within Dragonball & Dragonball Z -through the extent of hundreds of chapters, Toriyama always states whether or not a character is stronger than another. Because Toriyama purposely says his strength is a lie, than he's trying to tell us something. Why is it a lie? Because Majin Boo is still being influenced from a-lot of different people; therefore, his strength cannot be accurately determined with accuracy. Hence why, in both statements regarding himself and Zeta-Sword Gohan, he isn't certain, until Boo is no longer influenced from anyone.

a) 3.Kuririn was able to tell how strong Cell was off one hit. He did the same with Saiyan God Goku. Same principal here.

b)

1) The entire premise about using the Z-Sword was because it was supposed to make Gohan stronger than Boo. Because it was regarded as an exaggeration, it didn't live up to the expectations.

2) Any supposition from Gohan or Kaioshin about "well maybe it'll matter when he goes Super Saiyan" was just desperate rationalization.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

3) As Toriyama has told us, the secret to getting stronger is Chi control. Gohan says his 'muscle strength' increased, not his 'Chi control'. So by Toriyama's admission, Gohan didn't increase by much.

You said it was an ever changing concept the post before. Have you made up your mind yet? lol It can only be one or another right?.

You are missing the point.

The absolute limits for any specific character occurs at the end of the Manga's serialization. Everything that came before it; from the Holy Water to Guru's hidden power unlock, are just attempts at reaching their full dormant power. But these attempts are obviously contradicted, so these were never full dormant power unlocks to begin with.

Guru senses Gohan's hidden power and remarks it as incredible, whereas he senses Kuririns and doesn't use the same type of words to describe what he's sensing.

Great Elder: “By the way, despite being an Earthling, you have outstanding power…But it’s a shame that you have power still dormant…”

Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P7.4
Context: the Great Elder has his hand on Gohan’s head, sensing his hidden power.
Great Elder: “This is incredible… You have tremendous latent power… You are not an Earthling, are you…?”

Chapter: 274 (DBZ 80), P8.4
Jheese: “This is unexpected. Those little squirts' battle powers surpassed 10,000."

Gohan & Kuririns battle powers after Guru's unlock were close enough to be paired together when Jeice read their battle powers.

Yet before Guru's unlock, he remarks the two's latent ability as being very different. Gohan's is regarded as incredible whereas Kuririn's is still nothing special. Yet after the unlock, they're still close in power. Clearly, Guru sensed something greater in Gohan and he unlocked what he could.

These 'false' limits are continuously contradicted, and the actual limits they had all along were are what we see during the Cell Games or Android Arc.

Well Gohan already had his dormant power realeased by Guru but it wasn't a power capable of killing SPC.

See my above point.

Well Goku's gotten has stronger via AT past the Buu arc so whatever AT said in his interviews that means nothing.

Goku's limits are clearly implied 3 times by Toriyama in 3 different interviews. He couldn't get stronger without:

a) Using a different type of Chi,
b) Becoming a Saiyan God,

Normal Chi is useless, he's maxed it out. Nothing about his Base strength in Super contradicts End Of Z. He's still at his limits, herpa derp.

How does Elder Kaioshin know that a combination of Goku and Gohan can't beat Buutenks? He must know Goku's power right?
Also how does he know where the fusion of Goku and Gohan will stack, if he doesn't know Goku's power? So he knows Goku's power.

List evidence that shows Kaioshin sensing Goku's full power at Super Saiyan 3. Than you may have a point, until than you're reaching.

He didn't know the full extent of Gohan's dormant power until he sat down with him and took a look into it. The Daizenshuu lists SSj3 as drawing the hidden powers of it's user to their limits, so clearly this is contradictory to your argument.

All he knows is:

a) Gohan's hidden abilities were enormous and shocked Goku half way through the ritual.
b) Gohan must be stronger than Goku is.
c) Bootenks is twice as powerful as Super Boo
d) Ultimate Gohan got mopped.
e) Therefore Goku & Gohan will lose, even if they fight together.

Goten and Trunks are close in power, but they don't need to be at full power to fuse with one another, which is their SSJ power and is 50x their base power. They can fuse at base or SSJ. So i don't see why Goku couldnt do the Metamorian fusion at base with Gohan. It has no bearing on where the fusion would come out, right? Gohan could just suppress himself to Goku's base level to to the Metamori

Goku couldn't merge with anyone on Planet Metamor because nobody was close in battle power to him. Even with suppression, it didn't work. The obvious implication here is that both powers need to be close at some transformation for it to work before suppression is considered.

Sprry but your arguments are contrived based on no evidence, anti logical, turn characters to idiots, and contradict one another.

Your arguments make up principals that are non-existent in the Dragonball world.