Venato said:
Freeza still doesn't need to be anywhere as weak as you think he was. I mean, pretty much 3/4 of his full power sounds like an excessive lost, for the simple reason that he was still able to fight SSJ Goku. KKx20 Goku was able to hurt Freeza at 50 % of his power, perhaps more so since Goku was able to tell that Frieza wasn't bluffing afterwards (something he initially believed), which is only possible if Frieza powered up. And SSJ Goku is even more powerful than Kaioken x20 Goku. Yet Frieza was able fight him. It kind of make one wonder how much he was actually weakened. Clearly not as much as you think, in any case.
Freezer didn't rise his power past 50%, he just was toying with Goku and had to take the fight more seriously after Goku activated the KKx20. By the way, I disagree in that SSJ Goku was more powerful than KKx20 Goku.
Regarding how much strength Freezer lost, it indeed needs to have lost that much strength if we want to powerscale in the Cell saga with the data given there.
But besides that, Freezer having lost 3/4 of his strength between the Genkidama and the beating Goku gave him afterwards isn't high by any means. In fact, it's much less than the energy Raditz lost after taking Gohan's hit to the chest, or the energy Vegeta lost in his fight in the earth.
Venato said:
I wasn't talking about the gaps, who are inconsistent in Dragon Ball anyways, which is why I hold the belief that they are plot-related. No, I was talking about the fact that 2,9 simply doesn't make justice of a lot of the character's sheer powers.
* 2nd form Frieza stated that had his power been scanned by a scouter, it would be over a million. And that was before his two power-ups. His 4th form is particularly powerful, because even his initial power (that could be rivaled by Vegeta after his Zenkai) was much higher than his 3rd form.
* Piccolo could fight evenly with 2nd form Frieza.
* Gohan's rage boost made him the strongest twice (next to Frieza, of course), and in one case led Frieza to power-up.
* Vegeta (3rd Zenkai) could follow final form Frieza's movements and outperform the others.
* Goku (Zenkai) is even more powerful than Vegeta, who rightfully believed that he is the true Super Saiyan after all. The Kaioken can multiply the user's power. In that case, Goku multiplied his power by twenty, and he could hurt Frieza at half of his power. SSJ Goku is even stronger.
Chain:
SSJ Goku > 4th form Frieza (50%) >= Kaiokenx20 Goku >x20 Base Goku > 4th form Frieza (initial) >= Vegeta (Zenkai) > 3rd form Frieza > Piccolo ~ 2nd form Frieza >> 1 million
2nd form Freezer stated that with his new form he would surpass the million units in power. I take that in the same way as when he spoke to Nail and said that his power was 530.000, he was not speaking of his current power at that moment but the maximum he could achieve with that form.
Goku was never more porwerful than Vegeta. He was using the KKx10 since the very beginning of the fight, and with the KKx10, he clearly surpassed Vegeta.
Chain pre-Genkidama:
Original Freezer (50%) > KaiohKen x20 Goku >>>> Original Freezer (25%, initial) >= KaiohKen x10 Goku >>> Vegeta post Zenkay >= 3rd form Freezer > Piccolo > 2nd form Freezer
Chain post-Genkidama:
Original Freezer (100%, peak) >= SSJ Goku >> Original Freezer (50%, after Genkidama) > Original Freezer (50%, after Genkidama & Goku's beating)
Chain combining pre and post Genkidama:
Original Freezer (50%) > KaiohKen x20 Goku >>>> Original Freezer (25%, initial) >= KaiohKen x10 Goku = Original Freezer (100%, peak) >= SSJ Goku >> Original Freezer (50%, after Genkidama) > Original Freezer (50%, after Genkidama & Goku's beating) > Vegeta post Zenkay >= 3rd form Freezer > Piccolo > 2nd form Freezer
Venato said:
What the hell did I just read? I mean, are you for real?
Can you even post a single argument of mine that's not directly based on something written or drawn in the manga? "Dragon Ball is a gag manga and has no logic" when facing the data given in the manga it's something I've read in this thread not many pages ago...
Venato said:
Okay, let's try to be a little more serious. Do you truly believe that you know better than the author how strong his own character actually was compared to others? That's a pretty arrogant claim if you ask me. The sheer amount of assumption of how powerful Frieza actually would be if he wasn't weakened doesn't help your case.
Why are you bringing the author in here? I mean, the only one in this forum who has a stance that can accommodate what the author said regarding Goku's power in his SSJ form it's me.
You can't use the "you know better than the author" argument against me when I'm precisely the one that doesn't contradict him.
Venato said:
For example, you think that the amount of power Frieza lost would be enough to defeat 2nd form Frieza at half his power, despite the fact that a far weaker character was already power enough to hurt him at an arguably higher amount of power than half os his power. Plus, at this time, he didn't had the excuse of being weakened since all the damage he took were healed by his transformations. And correct me if I'm wrong, but in his final form, he hardly took any damage (if he did at all) before the Kaioken x20.
I can't follow your reasoning here. What has the amount of power lost by Freezer to do with the strength he had in his 2nd form?
But it's true that until the Genkidama he didn't took much damage (even the KKx20 was somewhat ineffective against him).
Venato said:
Even taking into account the Genkidama, Frieza being able to fight SSJ Goku that well despite the fact that he could barely handle the Kaioken x20 Goku at half of his power clearly indicates that he was at least using an extensive amount of his full power.
You're constantly assuming that KKx20 Goku was weaker than SSJ Goku, but I disagree on that as well, since otherwise the SSJ should have at least more than 6 million of power, and that would put him above Kami-Piccolo which is surely not the case.
On the other hand, Freezer was far stronger than KKx20 Goku when Goku activated the technique. It's just that:
a) The first hit took him by surprise.
b) He tried to stop Goku's Kamehame just with one hand (he only fired a simple ki beam when he saw that his physical strength alone wouldn't be enough).
Venato said:
It makes me wonder if the power he lost through the damage is significant, if relevant at all. In either case, Imeven assuming that Frieza was the strongest in Mecha Frieza arc, I simply can't fathom that he could even defeat the SSJs in android arc, let alone Imperfect Cell (Gingertown) and the androids/cyborgs (well N°16-N°18 at least).
But Freezer wasn't the strongest in the mecha-Freezer arc. In fact, even Piccolo or Vegeta should've been able to defeat him comfortably.
Venato said:
While it's true that there was no other Zenkais in DB afterwards, when was it stated that there was a limit to how strong you can get in base form? The Saiyans in particular were stated multiple times to have near-limitless potential to how strong they can get through trainings and battles (especially when it comes to hybrid Saiyans). Just look at how many times a Saiyan got a potential unlock. Then count how many times a Saiyan got even stronger afterwards. Heck, the simple fact that Goku and Vegeta conitinued to train in base form is enough to contradict your opinion. Why would they bother if it doesn't make them any stronger?
The very definition of the SSJ states that there are limits that a saiyan can't surpass no matter how strong or gifted they are, and Vegeta confirmed it again when he explained how he turned into a SSJ (he reached his base state limit, he realised he couldn't go any further no matter how much he trained and got enraged with himself as a consequence of that).
The saiyans got a ton of power ups, but after reaching the SSJ form, all those power ups came in form of better/more refined SSJ transformations, not their base state improving. The 40 tons feat of the Bu saga demonstrates that, and the only one that got an extra power-up in his base state was Gohan but old-Kaioshin clearly stated that this wasn't just a potential unlock, but his magic allowing Gohan to bring out his potential surpassing the limits that otherwise couldn't be surpassed (in other words, the the base state having access to the full power of the strongest SSJ form).
And why would they train in their base state if they can't get stronger you say?
1. In DB, like in real life, you lose power if you stop training, and the base state is the only form that doesn't put extra stress on the body.
2. The base state has advantages over the SSJ in spite of being weaker, so it's possible that Goku would first learn a technique in his base state first.
The fact is that there is not a single instance of the manga that contradicts that claim about the base state limit. Once the limit is said to be reached there isn't a single feat that contradicts it.
Venato said:
With that said, all the Z-Fighters still did much more progress in Saiyan and Frieza arc than they di in the entire first part. Of course, harder trainings, potential unlock, Zenkais and Namekian fusions had something to do with it. But considering that DB has a tendency to escalate the gains of trainings, as well as how often the Z-Fighters will praise each others on how much they progressed, makes me think that their power-up should be significant.
The gains escalated until the Namek arc, but Toriyama took measures against that:
1. The base power limit.
2. Showing how the SSJ wasn't about regular training but mastering the strength one already had.
From the Cell saga onwards the gains are smaller and smaller as the series advances. In the Bu saga Goku spent 7 years to increase his power what, a 50-60% more? And that's accounting for two extra transformations (the SSJ2 and SSJ3) and also a power increase in the FPSSJ form...
Venato said:
While the FPSSJ has better gains than the regular one, it still doesn't mean that the training gains have to be weak.
If not trained properly, yes, they are. Goku achieved much more power in the months he spent inside the RoSAT (he and Gohan didn't even spend the full day they had) than Vegeta, who spent the full 2 years and started his training with a higher power level than Goku.
Venato said:
I've already been over your assumptions on character's limits.
And I've already provided the quotes where their existence is confirmed, so you'll need concrete facts that prove that the base state didn't have a limit if you want to prove your point.
Venato said:
That is all for me. Feel free to answer if you want, but don't expect a reply. You'd be disappointed.
Feel free to do as you want.
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