(Manga only) 50% Freezer vs 2nd Form Cell

[KyuubiAhri]

I honestly cant believe that this thread is still alive and kicking

 

[Zippy]

@freezamite
So you're telling me 50% frieza > Ssj namek goku

Even though a supposed stronger counter part of 100% frieza (FP Mecha frieza) wasn't 100% sure he could beat the same goku?

k

 

[Tapion]

Freezer went from comfortably beating Goku KKx20 with half his strength to hardly match someone that had more or less the same strength as Goku KKx10 (Goku SSJ).

Super Saiyan Goku was dimensions above Kaio-ken x10. And no, a casual comment from Toriyama where he says the Super Saiyan felt like 10x when he was drawing it doesn't prove otherwise. He is not stating a fact here, he is making a casual comment. In fact, the Super Exciting Guide magazine that interviewed Toriyama KEPT printing the 50x boost as fact even after the interview. That would be an enormous offense to Toriyama if the statement was meant to be taken seriously, and he could even have sued them...but, none of that happened, which proves the 10x boost isn't a set-in-stone fact. If he had said "but that was a complete exaggeration - 10x suits what is shown in the manga much better and that's what it should be at" i would agree with you.

If that's not enough, he clearly states at least twice that his power is not the power he should have.

You have yet to prove his power dropped to 1/3 of what it was before. Which, of course, will be impossible. "Even having taken this damage" doesn't prove much, because there are instances in the manga where villains powered up from 10,000 to 12,000 and everyone was like "wow, what a huge-power up!" even though it wasn't a huge power-up, it was a small one. Why can't the same thing happen when a character loses strength? Not to mention, Freeza recovered his power when he went 100% so.

What makes you seem dishonest is things like that. Why dou you think Piccolo was "almost killed" when his reaction after that was to smile and to assure he would beat Freezer?

Piccolo's body took a large amount of damage, so according to your arguments, he should have lost a lot of power and Freeza wouldn't even need to transform. But then Piccolo takes his weights and still surpasses 2nd Form Freeza and is confident at beating him, despite the fact even his Unweighted power is only A BIT above Freeza, which means that he didn't lose any power.

If in every single fight becoming injured means losing strength, in that fight it meant the same as well.

It's not in every single fight, and it's not a cut and dry thing. Do you really think even for a second that a guy who has explicitly stated he only planned one week ahead when he was creating the manga[Toriyama] made a explicit and unfallible rule for his teenager manga? The answer is no.

But considering we can approximate the power of a SSJ to the hundreds of thousands thanks to the data given in the Cell saga

No, we can't. That was obviously not meant to be used as a serious power measure. If you actually believe that, then you'll also have to believe Super Saiyan 2 Gohan only has 500 units of power level.

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P2.1-4
Context: after Babidi fills Boo’s ball with Gohan’s energy
Babidi: “Wh-what!? There’s this much energy after just 1 time…! We’ve already gathered close to half in one go…! [ ] How many hundreds of people did Yamu and Spopovitch gather this from!?
[ ]

And that Goten and Trunks only have power levels of 50,000 at their base form("as tough as ten thousand men each!" is used to describe them in one of Viz's chapter covers). And, as a consequence to that, you'll also have to believe Teen Gohan is only around 60-70,000 at his base power, since he said he would be outstripped by Goten soon if he wasn't careful.

Of course, none of that makes a LICK of sense, which is the way of the manga to tell us to not take those "hundreds of thousands of people" statements seriously.

Well, that's it. Yes, it's bad writing if we read it in the way you do. But considering the author himself has stated this was not his vision, that if read like I do it is a much, much more solid work than it is when reading it in you way, and that the data given in the manga (Goku's feats in the Bu saga, Cell's absorbed people, etc.) also only makes sense when read like I do... why it seems so difficult to at least try to consider that the manga wasn't as bad as some of you think it was?

I don't know why you keep pretending we think the manga is bad. I myself saw the manga before the anime because my brother purchased the Saiyan Saga volume and gave it to me after he was done reading it when i was 7. It's just that, i know the manga is FAR from perfect. It's just that you take comments that are clearly not meant to be taken seriously....seriously.

Now we can discuss the plotholes of the bu saga (it had some plotholes, mainly regarding KaioShin and Gohan and then the one regarding Piccolo's head but that wasn't a plothole of the Bu saga but a plothole of the Cell saga), or other plotholes the series had, but that doesn't mean that every single scene in the manga has to be a plothole by itself.

No. But the manga is FAR from being a cut and dry thing like you want it to be. Toriyama himself is a gag author, and his manga was meant to be read by teenagers ranging from 13-18, not 35 year old adults. Do you really think even for a second that a gag author would set straight rules for manga? Damn, even the recent Dragon Ball Super episodes mock such idea. You just have to accept the fact that not everything is the manga is a rule and move on. It will be a lot better.

 

[freezamite]

@freezamite
So you're telling me 50% frieza > Ssj namek goku

Even though a supposed stronger counter part of 100% frieza (FP Mecha frieza) wasn't 100% sure he could beat the same goku?

k

You're assuming Freezer had all this information as well. Even if he knew that he had been injured and lost strength with the Genkidama:
1. He couldn't possibly know how much energy he had lost in the process.
2. He couldn't know that Goku regained all his strength with the rage boost.

Super Saiyan Goku was dimensions above Kaio-ken x10. And no, a casual comment from Toriyama where he says the Super Saiyan felt like 10x when he was drawing it doesn't prove otherwise. He is not stating a fact here, he is making a casual comment.

SSJ was a bit weaker than the KKx10, otherwise the data given in the Cell saga doesn't make sense.
And regarding Toriyama's comment, of course he was stating a fact. He was asked about Goku's blonde hair and he felt the necessity to address the SSJ multiplier.
Now you can disagree with him and say that the manga doesn't support the view he had, but if you want to prove that you'll need much more than a few ambiguous scenes that have to be interpreted in a certain way to say what you want them to say.

You have yet to prove his power dropped to 1/3 of what it was before.

Cell went from being weaker than weighted Piccolo to completely surpass him like he was nothing gaining the strength of "hundreds of thousands of humans".
If 1.500.000 units is 40% of Piccolo's power more or less, you only have to power scale to see that Goku's SSJ couldn't be far from 3.000.000

Piccolo's body took a large amount of damage, so according to your arguments, he should have lost a lot of power and Freeza wouldn't even need to transform.

That's not my argument, that's your argument (judging someone's injuries by his external appearance).
My argument is that Freezer was very injured because he said he was very injured, and no one ever refuted that. And that Piccolo isn't injured because... well, it's never implied that those hits really affected him that much.
My argument is really simple: what the manga says is the truth.

It's not in every single fight, and it's not a cut and dry thing. Do you really think even for a second that a guy who has explicitly stated he only planned one week ahead when he was creating the manga[Toriyama] made a explicit and unfallible rule for his teenager manga? The answer is no.

It's one of the most basic rules of DB, and you haven't been able to give a single example of someone not losing strength when injured.
It's not only implied by the dozens of times that this happens and is clearly stated, it's also implied by the logic of some dialogues (Vegeta guessing his attack was very effective because Zarbon's power decreased) that wouldn't make sense otherwise.
In other words, it wasn't Gohan's "energy draining headbutt" that made Raditz lose strength, it was his headbutt injuring Raditz a lot that weakened Raditz.

Now, if your argument is to say "I'm right because Toriyama wasn't able to properly write his series because he didn't plan his series too much" I can't accept that. You're making the manga much worse only to fit your narrative.

And by the way, if Toriyama was able to develop the Cell saga (multiple timelines affecting one another) with just one week planning, of course he was able to follow a rule as simple as "the more injured a fighter is, the less strength he has".

No, we can't. That was obviously not meant to be used as a serious power measure.

I can't know with what intentions Toriyama wrote what he wrote, but it's written.
And look at this, as of now your stance is the following one:
1. We can't use what Toriyama said (Goku SSJ being approximately 10x stronger) because he only made a casual comment.
2. Even when it's clearly implied that becoming injured makes you lose strength, that didn't happen to Freezer because Toriyama had to improvise his work and he couldn't follow that basic rule.
3. And when there's further data from the Cell saga that also supports that, that data wasn't meant to be read like that.

Of course, if we erase from existence anything that doesn't fit your view of the manga, then your view of the manga it's the one being true. But, considering all that, wouldn't it make much, much more sense to accept that:
1. Toriyama said what he said because it was what he believed.
2. Even if Toriyama can be wrong from time to time, Freezer actually lost energy with the Genkidama and posterior beating of SSJ Goku.
3. The data given in the Cell saga even if not accurate (hundreds of thousands is ambiguous enough) had its logic behind.

If you actually believe that, then you'll also have to believe Super Saiyan 2 Gohan only has 500 units of power level.

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P2.1-4
Context: after Babidi fills Boo’s ball with Gohan’s energy
Babidi: “Wh-what!? There’s this much energy after just 1 time…! We’ve already gathered close to half in one go…! [ ] How many hundreds of people did Yamu and Spopovitch gather this from!?
[ ]

No, I won't believe that.
This is only Babidi being ignorant as to how strong a human being can be. In fact, he doesn't even know Goku and Vegeta are saiyans, and he asks Dabra if the earthlings were always that strong after Pui Pui is defeated.
On the other hand, I'm using "objective" data. The strength measured by a scoutter is the most precise measurement there is when it comes to know someone's power. A young male human having 5 of strength isn't an opinion, it's a stated fact.
And regarding the number of absorbed humans, there's absolutely no reason to think that reporter was wrong by an order of magnitude.

Opinions have to be contextualised. If the first humans Babidi encounters are the z-warriors, it's only logical that his impression of the earthlings is different than the one we have as readers.

It's just that, i know the manga is FAR from perfect.

I also know the manga is far from perfect. But in order for it to be like you argue, it's much, much worse than it would be if we actually accept the data the manga gives to us.

But the manga is FAR from being a cut and dry thing like you want it to be. Toriyama himself is a gag author, and his manga was meant to be read by teenagers ranging from 13-18, not 35 year old adults. Do you really think even for a second that a gag author would set straight rules for manga?

Dragon Ball is not a gag manga. And of course Toriyama had straight rules for his manga, at least after he introduced them. Every single piece of shounen manga that's not a gag manga has it's internal rules, and DB wasn't an exception to that (the manga, the anime is different).

 

[Tapion]

SSJ was a bit weaker than the KKx10, otherwise the data given in the Cell saga doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense because it is not meant to be used to measure Super Saiyans. Dude, sorry if its offensive, but it's getting ridiculous. Dragon Ball is a teenager manga, you're actually trying to somehow measure a Super Saiyan based on a hyperbolic statement which is contradicted by a similar statement on Boo Saga.

As the Kanzenshuu user Luso Saiyan said:
"Transformations exist for entertainment/drama/emotional reaction. They are not bound by numbers or mathematical formulas."

And regarding Toriyama's comment, of course he was stating a fact. He was asked about Goku's blonde hair and he felt the necessity to address the SSJ multiplier.

Casual offhanded comments are not always meant to be taken one-hundred percent seriously. When Toriyama implies that Nappa is weak by making a casual comment about that, does that mean Nappa IS weak? No. Toriyama is simply remarking the fact that, when he was DRAWING Super Saiyan, it felt like a ten-fold boost to him AT THE TIME. That doesn't mean the boost didn't change to 50x later. In fact, the Super Exciting Guide, the same magazine that interviewed Toriyama and heard him saying the Super Saiyan boost felt like 10x, KEPT printing the 50x boost as fact, which means they interpret Toriyama differently than you. And they're an official source, and Toriyama never contradicted them later. SEG wins :d

Cell went from being weaker than weighted Piccolo to completely surpass him like he was nothing gaining the strength of "hundreds of thousands of humans".

The same Cell's absorbed Piccolo's arm, which should be worth dozens of thousands of humans going by your logic, and barely powered-up. You're once again taking hyperbolic and senseless statements way too seriously.

If 1.500.000 units is 40% of Piccolo's power more or less, you only have to power scale to see that Goku's SSJ couldn't be far from 3.000.000

Yeah, because powerscaling like that works in gag & teenager mangas, right?

My argument is that Freezer was very injured because he said he was very injured, and no one ever refuted that. And that Piccolo isn't injured because... well, it's never implied that those hits really affected him that much.

"Even having taken this damage" doesn't equate to "extremely or very injured". Or do i have to bring up Vegeta going from a power level of 24,000 to around 29,000(in other words, only a 21% increase) and everyone considering it a HUGE power-up(Krillin even remarks that Vegeta 'powered up so darn much') despite it being only a moderate power-up? Or maybe i have to bring up Vegeta going from around 16,000 TO 18,000(in other words, a 12.5% power-up) and Goku acting like Vegeta doubled his power?

Also, the hits DID injure him a lot. It is implied by Gohan, Vegeta and Krillin's comments. So, according to this supposed rule, Piccolo should have lost a lot of strength, and considering Freeza and him were close, ANY amount of strength would make a huge difference in the fight. But it didn't, somehow. Because he didn't lose strength.

It's one of the most basic rules of DB, and you haven't been able to give a single example of someone not losing strength when injured.

I have, several times. Here is another example: Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks vs. Super Boo. There is a moment where Gotenks is hit by a mouth blast and injured, but it doesn't make any difference in the fight, since Gotenks proceeds to beat the hell out of Super Boo, implying once again that he didn't lose any strength.

It's not only implied by the dozens of times that this happens and is clearly stated, it's also implied by the logic of some dialogues (Vegeta guessing his attack was very effective because Zarbon's power decreased) that wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Vegeta also states that speed and power are correlated in the fight against Kiwi, despite the fact that this isn't the case several times in the series(Ginyu vs. Goku, True-Speed Cell vs. Gohan, Tenshinhan vs. Goku in the 23rd Budokai) This proves that just because something happens many times, it doesn't make it a rule.

In other words, it wasn't Gohan's "energy draining headbutt" that made Raditz lose strength, it was his headbutt injuring Raditz a lot that weakened Raditz.

To determine if someone lost strength or not, we go through several factors: statements, appearance, implications and what is shown. Raditz fits in all of those but appearance, which is why it's confirmed that he lost strength.

And by the way, if Toriyama was able to develop the Cell saga (multiple timelines affecting one another) with just one week planning, of course he was able to follow a rule as simple as "the more injured a fighter is, the less strength he has".

No, what i meant with "one week ahead" was that Toriyama only planned one chapter ahead, since the chapters were released in a weekly basis back then. Also, Toriyama himself implies this in an interview.

I can't know with what intentions Toriyama wrote what he wrote, but it's written.
And look at this, as of now your stance is the following one:
1. We can't use what Toriyama said (Goku SSJ being approximately 10x stronger) because he only made a casual comment.

And also because the Super Exciting Guide kept printing the 50x boost as fact even after they interviewed Toriyama and he said that, which implies they interpret Toriyama's statement differently than you do.

2. Even when it's clearly implied that becoming injured makes you lose strength, that didn't happen to Freezer because Toriyama had to improvise his work and he couldn't follow that basic rule.

I've already admitted that Freeza lost some strength. What i won't admit is that somehow he was reduced to 30% of his power despite this never being implied.

3. And when there's further data from the Cell saga that also supports that, that data wasn't meant to be read like that.

Yeah, because it is a hyperbolic statement which doesn't make any sense with previous information. If those statements were meant to be taken seriously and we were to follow your logic, Goten and Trunks would only have about 500,000 units of power at their SSjin states, since one of the chapter's covers states they are "as tough as ten thousand men each". 1 man = 5. 10,000 man = 50,000. Therefore, Goten and Trunks = 50,000...except that's beyond ridiculous.

No, I won't believe that.
This is only Babidi being ignorant as to how strong a human being can be.

Despite the fact Dabura knew how powerful a normal human was, which is why he knew something was off about Goku's 3,000 reading?

hapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P2.5-6
Babidi: "Thr... 3,000 kiri...!! H-how does an Earthling have 3,000 kiri of energy...?!!
Dabra: “3,000 kiri…That’s strange…There shouldn’t be any human race like that.”

In fact, he doesn't even know Goku and Vegeta are saiyans, and he asks Dabra if the earthlings were always that strong after Pui Pui is defeated.

He doesn't know because he couldn't POSSIBLY know they were Saiyans. Also, what you said is not even close to the actual statement. What Babidi says is that they shouldn't underestimate them, because they defeated Pui-Pui. He never asks Dabura if the "earthlings were always that strong."

On the other hand, I'm using "objective" data. The strength measured by a scoutter is the most precise measurement there is when it comes to know someone's power. A young male human having 5 of strength isn't an opinion, it's a stated fact.
And regarding the number of absorbed humans, there's absolutely no reason to think that reporter was wrong by an order of magnitude.

He isn't wrong. It's just that it's a hyperbolic statement that is not meant to be used as a Super Saiyan power measure, like you're doing right now.

Opinions have to be contextualised. If the first humans Babidi encounters are the z-warriors, it's only logical that his impression of the earthlings is different than the one we have as readers.

No, because he knew how powerful normal humans were.

I also know the manga is far from perfect. But in order for it to be like you argue, it's much, much worse than it would be if we actually accept the data the manga gives to us.

I'm not obligated to take hyperbolic statements as fact. Not to mention, you don't even know how Cell's bioextract works, so you're just making an assumption in the end.

Dragon Ball is not a gag manga.

DBS Vegeta disagrees. Toriyama disagrees. Basically everything disagrees.

And of course Toriyama had straight rules for his manga, at least after he introduced them. Every single piece of shounen manga that's not a gag manga has it's internal rules, and DB wasn't an exception to that (the manga, the anime is different).

And of course Toriyama had straight rules for his manga, at least after he introduced them. Every single piece of shounen manga that's not a gag manga has it's internal rules, and DB wasn't an exception to that (the manga, the anime is different).

Right. We've also seen how characters established that speed and power being correlated is a rule(Vegeta when he killed Kiwi) only to break that rule even before it was established(literally dozens of chapters before the fight with Kiwi, the fight between Goku and Tien in the 23rd Budokai proved speed and power are not always correlated). It's no different with this "injured means losing power" rule.

 

[Zippy]

@freezamite

Frieza is capable of leveling, managing and knowing the extent of his power. There's no reason he wouldnt know how much he was weakened if he had been.

Even though that wasnt the case lol... But for the sake of your arguement lets assume it was. He would however be able to determine how strong goku was through fighting him... Why wouldnt he? He was able to realise how strong vegeta was without sensing so theres no reason why he vant with goku. He cant sense ki but hes not retarded either.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku must be lucky to beat Freeza then.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Lol at Super Saiyan being weaker than Kaio-Ken x10. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[Tapion]

He took that from an interview where Toriyama makes a casual comment about how Super Saiyan felt like 10x when he was drawing it.

 

[freezamite]

It doesn't make sense because it is not meant to be used to measure Super Saiyans. Dude, sorry if its offensive, but it's getting ridiculous. Dragon Ball is a teenager manga, you're actually trying to somehow measure a Super Saiyan based on a hyperbolic statement which is contradicted by a similar statement on Boo Saga.

I already explained why Babidi's stance on the subject is not the same as two objective measures: scoutter readings + number of Cell's victims.
Now, your whole argument revolves around it "being a teenager manga", but considering every time a character in DB doesn't speak as if he was omniscient a lot of fans in here (Zippo and you for example) can't contextualise what it says and you end taking it as if it was the holy bible, I think you're not in a position to discredit the manga like you do.
Yes, DB is a manga for teenagers, and a teenager should be able to distinguish between an omniscient stance and a character giving an opinion based on what he knows. That's reading comprehension 101...

As the Kanzenshuu user Luso Saiyan said:
"Transformations exist for entertainment/drama/emotional reaction. They are not bound by numbers or mathematical formulas."

Well then, if Luso Saiyan said it the debate is over. Toriyama was a poor crazy fool that didn't know what he was drawing, Luso said it so it has to be true.

Casual offhanded comments are not always meant to be taken one-hundred percent seriously.

It wasn't a casual offhanded comment. He was doing an interview and he felt the necessity to address something he felt was wrong.

When Toriyama implies that Nappa is weak by making a casual comment about that, does that mean Nappa IS weak? No.
Toriyama is simply remarking the fact that, when he was DRAWING Super Saiyan, it felt like a ten-fold boost to him AT THE TIME.

I can't even see the point you're trying to make here. I've read that interview, and the only conclusion you could drew from here is that Nappa was weaker than Vegeta despite having a more menacing appearance which is undeniably true as well.

That doesn't mean the boost didn't change to 50x later.

Of course the boost changed later, that was the whole point of mastering the SSJ and the "FPSSJ". But for Namek and for Goku everything points on Toriyama being right about what he said.

The same Cell's absorbed Piccolo's arm, which should be worth dozens of thousands of humans going by your logic, and barely powered-up.

"Barely powered up?". He powered up as much as Piccolo's whole arm strength like stated in the manga. It wasn't enough to put him above Piccolo or Vegeta SSJ, but it is in fact that sentence the one that demonstrates that Cell's absorption is as "simple" as to add to him power the energy he sucks.
In other words, that claim also proves that the "hundreds of thousands of humans" absorbed couldn't give him "hundreds of millions of units" because Cell simply added the absorbed power to his own, he didn't multiply it or anything like that.

Yeah, because powerscaling like that works in gag & teenager mangas, right?

If that doesn't work I don't know what we're discussing here. If every time your opinion contradicts the data given in the manga your answer is to say "the manga is wrong because it was a gag manga and I'm right", then it has to be really difficult to discuss anything with you.

And by the way, don't you see you're contradicting yourself? I mean, the whole point of this discussion (and how it started) was you trying to prove how wrong I was. Now you're saying that you're not wrong because the manga isn't well written since it was just a gag manga where anything could happen without any kind of logic behind.
But, if that is the case, why are you trying to prove me wrong? Why are we discussing if according to you this is a gag manga with no logic behind? How can you be so sure that this "manga without any kind of logic" support your stance and not mine?

Look, your stance on the manga didn't contemplate all the facts, while mine at least contemplated things that you didn't. Instead of trying to dismiss the whole manga as a "gag manga for teenagers" while at the same time contradicting the author (another big contradiction. You say things are like you say because the author didn't care about the internal logic of his work, but at the same time you're using your stance to contradict what the author said in an interview).

If it's true that DB was a gag manga without logic and Toriyama said that the SSJ was a 10x, then you should accept that the SSJ was a 10x without discussion. But you're discussing it based on what to you seemed evidences of it being higher, and that sole fact already proves that your actual claim of DB being a "gag manga without the tinniest bit of internal coherency" is just an excuse to not admit that you may be wrong. Sorry, but I can't accept that as a valid argument.

"Even having taken this damage" doesn't equate to "extremely or very injured".

"Even having taken this damage" equates to the damage taken being big, and Freezer stating that he was nearly killed and injured also means that those injuries weren't light. Now, how big the power lost was is determined by the facts I exposed, even if you say that this data doesn't matter because it doesn't fit your stance.
Now, comparing it to other fights, we saw both Raditz and Vegeta loosing much more strength than that, or Gohan loosing more than half his power with an injury that wasn't as bad as this one, so his energy decreased within what was proven possible in the series.

Or maybe i have to bring up Vegeta going from around 16,000 TO 18,000(in other words, a 12.5% power-up) and Goku acting like Vegeta doubled his power?

Two things:
1. Vegeta didn't go from 16,000 to 18,000. He didn't know how to alter his ki at that point of the series, he just went from a pacific attitude to an aggressive stance, which already make a big difference when it came to power sensing.
2. Even if it's true that apparently low increases (10-15%) are huge power ups in DB terms, it's also true that the strength Freezer lost was completely within what the series showed us was possible.

Also, the hits DID injure him a lot. It is implied by Gohan, Vegeta and Krillin's comments. So, according to this supposed rule, Piccolo should have lost a lot of strength, and considering Freeza and him were close, ANY amount of strength would make a huge difference in the fight. But it didn't, somehow. Because he didn't lose strength.

Stop spinning the facts. Nowhere it's even implied that Piccolo was very injured after those hits, nowhere. Krilin, Gohan and Vegeta are amazed that Freezer was still hiding strength, but they say nothing about Piccolo being very injured nor Piccolo does.
If no one says he was very injured, then he wasn't very injured.
In fact, Piccolo was hit because he was using weighted clothes, or in other words, his power in terms of resistance was already as big as it had to be. So the damage taken has to be much lower than if he was caught by those attacks without the weighted clothes.

I have, several times. Here is another example: Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks vs. Super Boo. There is a moment where Gotenks is hit by a mouth blast and injured, but it doesn't make any difference in the fight, since Gotenks proceeds to beat the hell out of Super Boo, implying once again that he didn't lose any strength.

Then that means that he wasn't as injured as you make him to be. Can't you see it? No one stated Gotenks was badly injured after taking that blast from Bu, and his strength didn't fall dramatically, which means that he wasn't seriously injured by that attack.
You're constantly spinning the manga in order to make it fit your stance. We've gone from someone saying he was nearly killed not being injured to someone not being affected by an attack suddenly being very injured because you need the manga to contradict itself in places it didn't.

You're not being honest. At this point you're not even spinning dialogues and scenes to support your point, you're just doing that only to demonstrate how "bad" the manga was and how we can ignore the facts because it didn't have logic. But then again, if the facts doesn't matter because the manga doesn't have any logic, who are you to say I'm wrong with my interpretation of the manga?

Vegeta also states that speed and power are correlated in the fight against Kiwi, despite the fact that this isn't the case several times in the series(Ginyu vs. Goku, True-Speed Cell vs. Gohan, Tenshinhan vs. Goku in the 23rd Budokai) This proves that just because something happens many times, it doesn't make it a rule.

When Vegeta said that, he was speaking about the scoutter readings, and the scoutter readings of course took the speed into account as it was clearly shown when Goku and Piccolo took of their weighted clothes and their powers increased.

That's not a manga contradiction, its the difference between scoutter measures and ki sensing with the former being more exact than the later.

To determine if someone lost strength or not, we go through several factors: statements, appearance, implications and what is shown. Raditz fits in all of those but appearance, which is why it's confirmed that he lost strength.

In your case, maybe. In my case the appearance doesn't have any weight in the least in front of the direct statements and what is shown. Raditz was severely injured because we were told he was, and to me that's what matters.

No, what i meant with "one week ahead" was that Toriyama only planned one chapter ahead, since the chapters were released in a weekly basis back then. Also, Toriyama himself implies this in an interview.

Yes I understood that and I'm not saying it's false. I believe you on this. What I'm saying is that the Cell saga's whole argument was an order of magnitude more complex than a simple rule like "the more injured the less strength" which is pretty straightforward. So if Toriyama was able to manage that, of course he will also able to manage something much simpler.

And also because the Super Exciting Guide kept printing the 50x boost as fact even after they interviewed Toriyama and he said that, which implies they interpret Toriyama's statement differently than you do.

Which, knowing that it wasn't written by Toriyama himself, holds as much weight as to what you or me can say in here.

I've already admitted that Freeza lost some strength. What i won't admit is that somehow he was reduced to 30% of his power despite this never being implied.

So you won't admit that his power could've been reduced less than what Raditz power did? Well, you're free to do that if you want, but you can't say there's any logic as to why Freezer couldn't have lost that amount of power while Raditz lost even more power than him.
At least we finally agree in that he lost a considerable amount of power, that's something I guess.

If those statements were meant to be taken seriously and we were to follow your logic, Goten and Trunks would only have about 500,000 units of power at their SSjin states, since one of the chapter's covers states they are "as tough as ten thousand men each". 1 man = 5. 10,000 man = 50,000. Therefore, Goten and Trunks = 50,000...except that's beyond ridiculous.

??
First of all, I would like to know which chapter states that, and in which context. Secondly, Goten and Trunks SSJ forms were mastered since they were native SSJ, in other words, the SSJ multiplier should be much higher than 10x for them.

Despite the fact Dabura knew how powerful a normal human was, which is why he knew something was off about Goku's 3,000 reading?

hapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P2.5-6
Babidi: "Thr... 3,000 kiri...!! H-how does an Earthling have 3,000 kiri of energy...?!!
Dabra: “3,000 kiri…That’s strange…There shouldn’t be any human race like that.”

1. It wasn't Dabura the one that said anything about the hundreds of humans.
2. Even in that quote, Dabra only speculates that humans shouldn't be that strong. They of course don't know Goku & co. are saiyans and not humans.
3. Even for you it's too forced to try to give credibility to Babidi's words through a statement made by Dabra... when that statement in fact proves that Babidi didn't know what humans were really capable off. Making his statement even less credible than it already was.

He doesn't know because he couldn't POSSIBLY know they were Saiyans.

Of course, and he didn't know what a human being was exactly, so it's only logical that he could drew wrong conclusions if he didn't even know the facts.

He isn't wrong. It's just that it's a hyperbolic statement that is not meant to be used as a Super Saiyan power measure, like you're doing right now.

Between hyperbolic statements, statements that aren't meant to be taken seriously and the fact that DB is a "gag" manga now, it's pretty clear that there will be no way of proving anything to you that it isn't "HUEBR_Tapion you're always right and no one should ever discuss your stances on anything".

No, because he knew how powerful normal humans were.

No, those statements proved it. He knew how powerful normal humans were, but he didn't know that those were the "normal humans".

DBS Vegeta disagrees. Toriyama disagrees. Basically everything disagrees.

I don't like to use anime filler to discuss anything, but in fact, DBS Vegeta agrees in that DB is not a gag manga. His whole point when speaking about Arale was that she was from a gag manga, while he (Vegeta) wasn't.
Of course, this interview doesn't say anything about DB being a gag manga as a whole (in fact, it clearly says that the more fight focused the manga was, the more serious it also became), and it's absolutely apparent by the sole fact that you're trying to prove me wrong -well, now you're trying to prove the manga is wrong, but that has been after trying to argue with the manga that I was wrong- that not even you believe that.

Right. We've also seen how characters established that speed and power being correlated is a rule(Vegeta when he killed Kiwi) only to break that rule even before it was established(literally dozens of chapters before the fight with Kiwi, the fight between Goku and Tien in the 23rd Budokai proved speed and power are not always correlated). It's no different with this "injured means losing power" rule.

Yes, we were told that scoutter measurements take into account the speed as well, and there isn't a single instance of someone increasing his speed and the scoutter not noticing it, while we have examples of someone not increasing his power but increasing his speed, and the scoutter noticing it.
So no, this is not a contradiction, it's (as I've said) you not seeing the difference between power sensing (which doesn't measure the speed) and scoutter measuring (which does).

 

[Pocket-God]

Why is this thread still going? XD

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Both are even but I think Freeza takes this.

 

[Male]

Cell wins since regen. Lol

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Freeza gets bent.

 

[Tapion]

I already explained why Babidi's stance on the subject is not the same as two objective measures: scoutter readings + number of Cell's victims

.
No, you didn't explain anything. You made up some statement about Babidi not knowing how powerful a normal Earthling was, which i countered handily with statements and implications from the manga.

Now, your whole argument revolves around it "being a teenager manga", but considering every time a character in DB doesn't speak as if he was omniscient a lot of fans in here (Zippo and you for example) can't contextualise what it says and you end taking it as if it was the holy bible, I think you're not in a position to discredit the manga like you do.

I'm in the position of discredit anything that is an obvious hyperbole & obviously not meant to be used as "Super Saiyan Power Calculator". If hyperbolic statements were meant to be taken seriously, Goten and Trunks would have 50,000 units of power each.

Yes, DB is a manga for teenagers, and a teenager should be able to distinguish between an omniscient stance and a character giving an opinion based on what he knows. That's reading comprehension 101...

Dragon Ball is a manga for teenagers, and a normal teenager won't calculate the power of a Super Saiyan based on a random number picked by Toriyama to illustrate how terrific Cell is. No, normal teenagers will simply be looking for fights, fun, and in some cases, history.

Well then, if Luso Saiyan said it the debate is over. Toriyama was a poor crazy fool that didn't know what he was drawing, Luso said it so it has to be true.

Once again you twist something i've said because you know it's true and you're icapable of creating any counterargument whatsoever. Yes, Luso Saiyan's statement was ABSOLUTELY on-spot, and it's probably one of the most correct things someone has ever said in the history of the internet. Yes, transformations are meant to be entertainment and emotional. And that's absolutely it. Can't you just accept something simple like this?

It wasn't a casual offhanded comment. He was doing an interview and he felt the necessity to address something he felt was wrong.

No. He said the Super Saiyan boost felt like 10x when he was drawing it. Nothing prevents Toriyama from simply changing the boost to adjust the story later. In fact, the Super Saiyan boost being so big makes much more sense in a shonen manga than it being a controlled Oozaru with stamina drain(in other words, basically Oozaru). Actually, the Super Saiyan boost being bigger than Oozaru's boost is one of the whole points of the entire transformation, which is why Vegeta and Goku refer to the form as "legendary" and blablabla.

Of course the boost changed later, that was the whole point of mastering the SSJ and the "FPSSJ". But for Namek and for Goku everything points on Toriyama being right about what he said.

No, it's not. There's nothing in the manga that suggests the FPSSjin boost is any bigger than the Super Saiyan boost. The point of mastering Super Saiyan is to get rid of the stamina drain, and also to give Toriyama some kind of excuse to make Goku and Gohan have bigger gains than Vegeta and Trunks.

"Barely powered up?". He powered up as much as Piccolo's whole arm strength like stated in the manga. It wasn't enough to put him above Piccolo or Vegeta SSJ

It was enough to put him above Vegeta, because he was already stronger than Vegeta. Anyway, according to you, Ginger-Town Cell is around Super Saiyan Trunks. Considering he was so weak according to your POV, the boost that came from absorbing Piccolo's arm would be enough to increase his power by a huge margin, enough to warrant a comment from Piccolo like "your power increased by a lot just now" and to make Trunks and Krillin notice it. That didn't happen. Piccolo just said "even if i take into account the energy you absorbed from my arm, i'm still more powerful than you", and nobody really noticed Cell's power going up by a ton.

Cell also stated that absorbing all of Piccolo's energy would draw him extremely close to his Perfect Form, and stated in the same chapter that human life alone wouldn't be enough to make him reach the power of his Perfect Form. This proves not everything is cut and dry like you want to believe.

Also, Piccolo's whole arm strength would be worth a good fraction of all the humans Cell absorbed. It would make his power skyrocket...but it didn't skyrocket.

In other words, that claim also proves that the "hundreds of thousands of humans" absorbed couldn't give him "hundreds of millions of units" because Cell simply added the absorbed power to his own, he didn't multiply it or anything like that.

We don't even know how Cell's bioextract works. All he stated was that if he absorbed energy of Piccolo's magnitude, he would be extremely close to his Perfect Form.

f that doesn't work I don't know what we're discussing here. If every time your opinion contradicts the data given in the manga your answer is to say "the manga is wrong because it was a gag manga and I'm right", then it has to be really difficult to discuss anything with you.

What we were discussing was 50% Freeza's power compared to 2nd Form Cell. Not to mention, you're twisting what i said, just like you have dozens of times in this debate. In fact, it is being really difficult to discuss anything with you, because you just can't accept the fact a random number picked by Toriyama isn't meant to be used as a Super Saiyan power measure.

Even having taken this damage" equates to the damage taken being big, and Freezer stating that he was nearly killed and injured also means that those injuries weren't light. Now, how big the power lost was is determined by the facts I exposed, even if you say that this data doesn't matter because it doesn't fit your stance.

Yes, Freeza took some damage. Yes, Freeza lost some power. However, this ends up being worthless to mention, because nothing contradicts Freeza not losing too much power and Goku also implies Freeza recovered his strength when he went 100%, before his power began to drop again because of strain.

Two things:
1. Vegeta didn't go from 16,000 to 18,000. He didn't know how to alter his ki at that point of the series, he just went from a pacific attitude to an aggressive stance, which already make a big difference when it came to power sensing.

You've just pointed one of the many things that prevent the manga from being perfect. Characters such as First Form Freeza, who are said to be unable to alter his ki without the use of the transformations, do just that...alter their ki. For instance, Piccolo literally states First Form Freeza's ki increased when he was fighting Vegeta. Goku also states Vegeta's ki increased when he powered up. So no.

Also, there is nothing suggesting going from pacific to aggressive increases your power. Toriyama literally states right mindedness is one of the components of ki, so if anything the opposite is suggested.

2. Even if it's true that apparently low increases (10-15%) are huge power ups in DB terms, it's also true that the strength Freezer lost was completely within what the series showed us was possible.

No, because you're assuming Freeza lost that much strength to begin with, when nothing suggests he lost so much strength.

Stop spinning the facts. Nowhere it's even implied that Piccolo was very injured after those hits, nowhere. Krilin, Gohan and Vegeta are amazed that Freezer was still hiding strength, but they say nothing about Piccolo being very injured nor Piccolo does.

Krillin's immediate reaction was to say Freeza was faking being defeated by Piccolo, which implies he thought Freeza's hits were lethal. Vegeta is also terrified of the power Freeza shows, remarking that he was crazy when he tried to fight Freeza. None of that would make sense in the context of the scene if they didn't think the beating Freeza gave Piccolo injured him.

In fact, Piccolo was hit because he was using weighted clothes, or in other words, his power in terms of resistance was already as big as it had to be. So the damage taken has to be much lower than if he was caught by those attacks without the weighted clothes.

No, because the weighted clothes are used to train durability and strength. So, when someone trains with weighted clothes, most of the results of the training are already shown in a fight, even when the user is still using the clothes - so, Piccolo's durability without the weighted clothes is only a bit bigger than with them. Piccolo's durability without the clothes isn't shown to increase much in all of the instances he fights without them -

against Raditz; it doesn't make any difference, because Raditz is much stronger than him.
against Freeza; Piccolo's durability isn't shown to increase much, since he doesn't get the chance to prove himself.
against Ginger Town Cell: Piccolo doesn't need to take out his weighted clothes.
against Android 17: Piccolo doesn't fight Android 17 with his weighted clothes.

Then that means that he wasn't as injured as you make him to be. Can't you see it? No one stated Gotenks was badly injured after taking that blast from Bu, and his strength didn't fall dramatically, which means that he wasn't seriously injured by that attack.

No, Gotenks was at least somewhat injured when he took that blast, because he got angry and tried to get back at Boo for injuring him. It proves that being injured doesn't mean you lose power automatically, like you're trying to say.

You're constantly spinning the manga in order to make it fit your stance. We've gone from someone saying he was nearly killed not being injured to someone not being affected by an attack suddenly being very injured because you need the manga to contradict itself in places it didn't.

Nope. You're once again twisting what i was trying to say. The manga is bad; obviously not. The manga isn't perfect; fact. Those are all facts, and even you should be able to understand that.

You're not being honest. At this point you're not even spinning dialogues and scenes to support your point, you're just doing that only to demonstrate how "bad" the manga was and how we can ignore the facts because it didn't have logic. But then again, if the facts doesn't matter because the manga doesn't have any logic, who are you to say I'm wrong with my interpretation of the manga?

No, i'm not saying the manga doesn't have any logic, dear god stop being stupid and twisting what i say.

When Vegeta said that, he was speaking about the scoutter readings, and the scoutter readings of course took the speed into account as it was clearly shown when Goku and Piccolo took of their weighted clothes and their powers increased.

You say the scouter readings take speed into account and then you proceed to mention an example where the scouter readings are only shown to measure power? What's the logic behind that?

Also, Vegeta says that if his power raises, it means his speed raises too. In the context, he is actually mocking Kiwi for not acknowledging this supposedly basic fact. So no, he isn't speaking about scouter readings.

n your case, maybe. In my case the appearance doesn't have any weight in the least in front of the direct statements and what is shown.

Which i never denied.

Yes I understood that and I'm not saying it's false. I believe you on this. What I'm saying is that the Cell saga's whole argument was an order of magnitude more complex than a simple rule like "the more injured the less strength" which is pretty straightforward. So if Toriyama was able to manage that, of course he will also able to manage something much simpler.

It's still not a rule, because there are examples implying otherwise. Simple as that.

Which, knowing that it wasn't written by Toriyama himself, holds as much weight as to what you or me can say in here.

The SEG is official, published by Shueisha and praised & approved by Toriyama. It holds much more weight than yours and my words, unless it directly contradicts the manga, which it doesn't. So the fact the SEG prints the 50x as fact helps my point a lot.

??
First of all, I would like to know which chapter states that, and in which context. Secondly, Goten and Trunks SSJ forms were mastered since they were native SSJ, in other words, the SSJ multiplier should be much higher than 10x for them.

And FPSSjin = SSjin in raw power.

I don't like to use anime filler to discuss anything, but in fact, DBS Vegeta agrees in that DB is not a gag manga. His whole point when speaking about Arale was that she was from a gag manga, while he (Vegeta) wasn't.

You're aware of the fact that Arale is also a DB character, right? Anyway, it proves there are many times in the series where DB doesn't take itself too seriously.

Of course, this interview doesn't say anything about DB being a gag manga as a whole (in fact, it clearly says that the more fight focused the manga was, the more serious it also became), and it's absolutely apparent by the sole fact that you're trying to prove me wrong -well, now you're trying to prove the manga is wrong, but that has been after trying to argue with the manga that I was wrong- that not even you believe that.

The fact the manga became more serious overtime doesn't disproe the fact that it was meant to be read by early-mid teenagers, and therefore it ISN'T meant to be complicated.

Yes, we were told that scoutter measurements take into account the speed as well, and there isn't a single instance of someone increasing his speed and the scoutter not noticing it, while we have examples of someone not increasing his power but increasing his speed, and the scoutter noticing it.
So no, this is not a contradiction, it's (as I've said) you not seeing the difference between power sensing (which doesn't measure the speed) and scoutter measuring (which does).

Disproved this above.

 

[freezamite]

No, you didn't explain anything. You made up some statement about Babidi not knowing how powerful a normal Earthling was, which i countered handily with statements and implications from the manga.

It's not my problem if you can't distinguish between objective measures and what a character (mistakenly) thinks an earthling should be. But I have tried to explain that to you, there's no doubt about that.

I'm in the position of discredit anything that is an obvious hyperbole & obviously not meant to be used as "Super Saiyan Power Calculator".

You still can't realise that you're NOT AN AUTHORITY when it comes to the DB manga? You can't decide what was meant to be used as a "power calculator" and what wasn't.

If hyperbolic statements were meant to be taken seriously, Goten and Trunks would have 50,000 units of power each.

Do you even know what an hyperbolic statement is? Because the statement counting Cell's victims clearly wasn't an hyperbolic one.
You're constantly manipulating everything with the only aim to not have to say "hey, I can be wrong too". Incredible.

Dragon Ball is a manga for teenagers, and a normal teenager won't calculate the power of a Super Saiyan based on a random number picked by Toriyama to illustrate how terrific Cell is. No, normal teenagers will simply be looking for fights, fun, and in some cases, history.

Oh yes, I'm sure that if it wasn't for that dialogue not a single teenager would've understood that Cell was terrific at that point in the series. Cell needed a feat even Raditz would've been capable of in order to be "terrific" LOL

Furthermore, you're being really hypocrite here. Don't you realise that you're using "what Toriyama had on mind" as an argument to demonstrate that... Toriyama didn't draw what he had on mind? You're contradicting Toriyama when he said he drew SSJ Namek Goku 10x stronger than his base state, and not only you're not supporting that with manga feats, but when those feats prove in fact that Toriyama was right you try to dismiss them saying "Toriyama wrote that without the intention of it being used in power scaling".

Look, stop it with the nonsensical excuses and stop pretending you know what Toriyama was thinking every time, and accept what's written.

Yes, Luso Saiyan's statement was ABSOLUTELY on-spot, and it's probably one of the most correct things someone has ever said in the history of the internet. Yes, transformations are meant to be entertainment and emotional. And that's absolutely it. Can't you just accept something simple like this?

Of course I can accept that turning into a SSJ has a much more dramatic effect than doing the same power up without turning into a SSJ, so it's obvious that the transformations had a dramatic effect attached to it.
But that's one thing, and another one is the transformations not having any kind of logic behind only because they were created for dramatic purposes, in fact, the opposite should be implied.
Do you know what's a drama? Of course you don't, because if you knew you would already know that it's the opposite of a gag manga. A drama precisely needs to have a very strong internal coherence so the dramatic moments of the series don't loose their impact.
You arguing that DB is a gag manga in one message and then arguing that the transformations where done for a dramatic purpose it's another big contradiction of yours.

No. He said the Super Saiyan boost felt like 10x when he was drawing it. Nothing prevents Toriyama from simply changing the boost to adjust the story later.

Of course nothing prevents Toriyama from doing that, it's just that him being able to do something doesn't mean that he actually did it. Dragon Ball could also have had Pilaf as the strongest enemy if Toriyama wanted it that way, it just didn't happen so you have to accept what was drawn in the manga.
If you want to prove Toriyama wrong, do it, but you've still not provided a single proof for anything you've said. NOT A SINGLE PROOF. You want me to believe you when your only argument is "I'm right because I'm me and you're just you, and me it's obviously more important than you". That's your (pedantic) stance as of now.

In fact, the Super Saiyan boost being so big makes much more sense in a shonen manga than it being a controlled Oozaru with stamina drain(in other words, basically Oozaru). Actually, the Super Saiyan boost being bigger than Oozaru's boost is one of the whole points of the entire transformation, which is why Vegeta and Goku refer to the form as "legendary" and blablabla.

The SSJ was justified because it could reach power levels a normal Saiyan could never reach. The Oozaru boost like the zenkay power were all limited by the base state limit (in other words, a 18.000 Vegeta could reach 180.000 as an Oozaru, but a 1.000.000 Vegeta couldn't turn into a 10.000.000 Oozaru because the limit of the base state for Vegeta was much lower than that), so you don't need the SSJ multiplier to contradict what Toriyama said to justify the existence of the SSJ.

No, it's not. There's nothing in the manga that suggests the FPSSjin boost is any bigger than the Super Saiyan boost. The point of mastering Super Saiyan is to get rid of the stamina drain, and also to give Toriyama some kind of excuse to make Goku and Gohan have bigger gains than Vegeta and Trunks.

What the hell?
1. Stop pretending you know what Toriyama was thinking at every single moment. You simply don't know that.
2. Of course it's implied. Not only it's the exact same that happened to Nappa, if the base state can't increase but they get stronger with the same transformation... what the hell could've increased if not the transformation efficiency?
3. Not even a single time was a "stamina drain" being even remotely implied for the SSJ transformation. In fact, Goku wins against Freezer precisely because Freezer has a bigger than normal stamina drain while he doesn't. So that's another case of you putting your personal stance over the facts described in the manga.
4. You have Vegeta and Trunks having trained 2 years in the RoSAT and not achieving what Goku achieved, while until that point in the series Vegeta always had bigger power gains with comparable amounts of training. The only difference between Goku&Gohan and Vegeta&Trunks was that the first two had mastered the SSJ, but yes, it wasn't implied that mastering the SSJ could increase it's efficiency.
5. Stop it. You're clearly clueless about the DB manga. Stick with the anime discussions where nothing had any logic behind, those may be your speciality.

It was enough to put him above Vegeta, because he was already stronger than Vegeta. Anyway, according to you, Ginger-Town Cell is around Super Saiyan Trunks. Considering he was so weak according to your POV, the boost that came from absorbing Piccolo's arm would be enough to increase his power by a huge margin, enough to warrant a comment from Piccolo like "your power increased by a lot just now" and to make Trunks and Krillin notice it.
That didn't happen. Piccolo just said "even if i take into account the energy you absorbed from my arm, i'm still more powerful than you", and nobody really noticed Cell's power going up by a ton.

Can't you see that you're contradicting yourself in a single paragraph?
First, you use the hypothesis (hypothesis, NOT FACT) that "if Cell had absorbed Piccolo's arm's energy those characters would've said 'oh Cell your power has increased a lot' but they didn't, which means that Cell's power didn't increase that much".
And then you proceed to use Piccolo's claim that precisely says that Cell has taken the energy of his arm to demonstrate that Cell didn't take the energy of his arm.

See? All your arguments are constructed in the same fallacious way.
1. You make a claim that you decide it's the most absolute truth in the planet. In this case "if Cell had absorbed Piccolo's arm's strength, that would be a night and day difference and everybody should've said how strong Cell had become after that". You don't realise that this is just your stance on the subject and that in this case it's been proven wrong by the manga dialogues and you act as if nothing else could happen.

2. Then you proceed to "prove" you're right using your own claim as a proof of you being right. In this case by saying that "Cell's power didn't increase as much as it should because what I said about everyone noticing how Cell power increased a lot is contradicted. So Cell didn't gain Piccolo's arm strength even when it's directly stated in the manga".

Sorry, but that doesn't prove you're right. It only proves that you:
1. Don't know how to properly construct a logic argument.
2. Lack reading comprehension (you obviously don't understand what's written in the manga).

Cell also stated that absorbing all of Piccolo's energy would draw him extremely close to his Perfect Form.
Cell also stated that absorbing all of Piccolo's energy would draw him extremely close to his Perfect Form, and stated in the same chapter that human life alone wouldn't be enough to make him reach the power of his Perfect Form. This proves not everything is cut and dry like you want to believe.

Another example of you not understanding what you read. This is not a contradiction by any means. What Cell says is that only absorbing living beings he will never achieve the power of his perfect form (meaning that his non-perfect forms have a power limit lower than his perfect form), but it's obvious that if he could absorb all of Piccolo's energy (who was already at the same level of strength as an Android) he would be close to his Perfect Form because he would already be stronger than an Android and hence proceed to absorb it.
He wasn't saying he would be close to his perfect form in terms of having as much power, but in terms of being able to absorb the androids and becoming perfect as a result of that.

Also, Piccolo's whole arm strength would be worth a good fraction of all the humans Cell absorbed. It would make his power skyrocket...but it didn't skyrocket.

Another wrong assumption of yours.

Yes, Freeza took some damage. Yes, Freeza lost some power. However, this ends up being worthless to mention, because nothing contradicts Freeza not losing too much power

No, Freezer not only took "some damage". Freezer took "a lot" of damage, which means that his power decreased a lot. How much "a lot" is can be deduced from the feats we have, but stop twisting the dialogues.
Freezer was nearly killed by the Genkidama according to him, he took a lot of damage, accept that and construct your arguments from here because THOSE are facts.

You've just pointed one of the many things that prevent the manga from being perfect. Characters such as First Form Freeza, who are said to be unable to alter his ki without the use of the transformations, do just that...alter their ki.

That's false again. Where was even remotely implied that Freezer couldn't alter his power without the use of transformations? In fact, the first time we see Freezer fighting against someone the first thing he does is to claim that he won't use all the power he has to beat Nail. The opposite is implied.

Also, there is nothing suggesting going from pacific to aggressive increases your power. Toriyama literally states right mindedness is one of the components of ki, so if anything the opposite is suggested.

Are you aware that right mindedness is not the opposite of being aggressive? In fact in DB the biggest power ups are precisely the ones where someone becomes very aggressive for the correct reasons.
And of course it's implied a lot of times that going from pacific to aggressive stances increases the perception of power. Goku vs Vegeta, Yamcha's comment on SSJ Goku's power at DBZ chapter 140: "What a huge Ki... and he's not even fighting", etc. are a proof of that.
Ki sensing <> Scoutter readings. For a scoutter it wouldn't make a difference if you're fighting or you're not, but when it comes to Ki sensing that's different.

No, because you're assuming Freeza lost that much strength to begin with, when nothing suggests he lost so much strength.

In fact it's the opposite. You're the one assuming Freezer can't have lost a lot of strength and putting excuses to whatever it's said that implies the opposite. I'm providing plenty of manga feats to prove my point, feats that you dismiss because "Toriyama didn't write them to be used in discussions" but feats nonetheless.

Krillin's immediate reaction was to say Freeza was faking being defeated by Piccolo, which implies he thought Freeza's hits were lethal.

No, that's not true. Or you're really desperate to avoid admitting you're wrong, or your reading comprehension is literally speaking nonexistant. Krilin was surprised Freezer was still hidding more power, nowhere he implies anything about Piccolo's injuries or those hits being lethal. That's just your (very wrong) assumption, and of course, an assumption you use to "prove" that Piccolo was very injured even when he smiled with confidence after Freezer's attack.

Vegeta is also terrified of the power Freeza shows, remarking that he was crazy when he tried to fight Freeza. None of that would make sense in the context of the scene if they didn't think the beating Freeza gave Piccolo injured him.

And why wouldn't they make sense? So Vegeta who was below Freezer before Freezer powered up, saying that he was crazy to try to fight against Freezer once he powers up, already proves that Freezer was above Piccolo according to you? That doesn't make even the slightest sense and here we have you trying to use it as a fact to prove something.

Furthermore, do you even realise that neither Vegeta nor Krilin had noticed that Piccolo was using weighted clothes? Even if those comments could imply what you're implying (they clearly didn't), they would still be wrong because they were made without them knowing all the facts!

That's why I say that you need to CONTEXTUALISE what's said in order to then make a correct interpretation of the facts. Piccolo wasn't badly injured there, and the only ones that COULD (and let me put that in capital letters, because as I've already said it's forced to say the least to interpret those words in the way you do) insinuate something different, didn't know all the facts and are corrected afterwards.

In fact, Piccolo was hit because he was using weighted clothes, or in other words, his power in terms of resistance was already as big as it had to be. So the damage taken has to be much lower than if he was caught by those attacks without the weighted clothes.

No, because the weighted clothes are used to train durability and strength. So, when someone trains with weighted clothes, most of the results of the training are already shown in a fight, even when the user is still using the clothes - so, Piccolo's durability without the weighted clothes is only a bit bigger than with them. Piccolo's durability without the clothes isn't shown to increase much in all of the instances he fights without them-

against Raditz; it doesn't make any difference, because Raditz is much stronger than him.
against Freeza; Piccolo's durability isn't shown to increase much, since he doesn't get the chance to prove himself.
against Ginger Town Cell: Piccolo doesn't need to take out his weighted clothes.
against Android 17: Piccolo doesn't fight Android 17 with his weighted clothes.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Piccolo without clothes is more durable than that same Piccolo with the weighted clothes, that's not implied anywhere in the manga by the way.
What I'm saying is that Piccolo had a big enough power that in normal conditions would allow him to dodge those hits, and he didn't do it because he was using weighted clothes, but the damage taken should be lower because the weighted clothes only make you slower, not less resistant.

I'll explain what I'm trying to say with numbers. Let's imagine both Piccolo and Freezer were 100% compensated fighters, so Piccolo having a power of 10 means 10 strength, 10 speed and 10 damage resistance (stamina is not taken into account on the power readings).
With the weighted clothes, let's say his power was reduced to 9 because of 10 strength, 8 speed and 10 damage resistance.
On the other hand, Freezer had an overall power of 9, with 9 strength, 9 speed and 9 damage resistance.
That 9 Freezer could only get the (normally) 10 Piccolo because Piccolo's speed was reduced from 10 to 8, but in terms of damage resistance Piccolo would still be 10, so his injuries had to be much lower than if Freezer had been 11 strength, 11 speed and 11 damage resistance and surpassed a Piccolo that wasn't hampered by the weighted clothes.

In other words, with the weighted clothes Piccolo hampered one of his stats (speed) but not the one that matters when considering if he took a lot of damage or not (damage resistance). That's what I'm saying.

No, Gotenks was at least somewhat injured when he took that blast, because he got angry and tried to get back at Boo for injuring him. It proves that being injured doesn't mean you lose power automatically, like you're trying to say.

Another assumption of yours that you try to pass as fact. Since when a kid getting angry means that he was injured? I mean, I've seen a lot of angry kids and none of them were even "injured".
Heck, and it's not even a good excuse because if we go by that then Freezer also was very injured after Goku's KKx20 + KameHame because he got enraged as well.
Gotrunks wasn't noticeably injured there. Maybe a bit injured and him having lost a tiny bit of strength? Maybe, but not enough to have an impact on the outcome of the fight.

No, i'm not saying the manga doesn't have any logic, dear god stop being stupid and twisting what i say.

You were arguing that DB was a gag manga! A fucking GAG MANGA! LoL

You say the scouter readings take speed into account and then you proceed to mention an example where the scouter readings are only shown to measure power? What's the logic behind that?

What? The scoutter reading clearly increased Goku's Power Level after noticing Goku had lost weight and thus the increase in speed. In other words, when Goku increased his maximum achievable speed his power level increased, because speed and power level readings are related like Vegeta said.

Also, Vegeta says that if his power raises, it means his speed raises too. In the context, he is actually mocking Kiwi for not acknowledging this supposedly basic fact. So no, he isn't speaking about scouter readings.

Of course he is speaking of scoutter readings because:
1. Scoutter readings is what Vegeta really knew. He was starting to perceive Kis but his experience with that was none, and of course it wouldn't make any sense for him to mock Kiwi for something (power sensing) Kiwi couldn't possibly know. If it was a basic fact as you yourself say, it's because they were speaking about something they both perfectly knew, and that could only be the scoutter readings.

2. As a general sense, when you power up your speed also increases. It's only when special transformations (Trunks USSJ) or special conditions (weighted clothes) are met that Ki sensing becomes inaccurate. But again, Ki sensing is different than scoutter readings, and the scoutter takes the speed into consideration when showing the PL number making Vegeta's claim to be true.

It's still not a rule, because there are examples implying otherwise. Simple as that.

It's a rule, and not only because of how many instances we have where this is directly stated, but also because it's used in both ways.
For example, this page:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-105-index-2-page-2.html
See? Goku knows Gohan is going to die because his Ki is getting smaller. It's not just that in some instances you can loose strength, the amount of ki was directly related to how injured you are, and in this case Goku knew Gohan was being injured because his ki was decreasing.

Your examples doesn't prove anything, because they're not even good examples. You just grab random attacks that doesn't do much damage, say that those attacks were terribly damaging without anything proving your claim, and proceed to use them to proof that becoming injured doesn't drain power. That's not how you prove a point, not here and not anywhere.

The SEG is official, published by Shueisha and praised & approved by Toriyama. It holds much more weight than yours and my words, unless it directly contradicts the manga, which it doesn't. So the fact the SEG prints the 50x as fact helps my point a lot.

As official as any random filler episode of the anime, and of course you can use this or the filler to prove your points, it's just that were're speaking of the MANGA here (see the manga only in the title?) so your claims based on anime filler and guides not made by Toriyama doesn't hold as much weight as you think.

And FPSSjin = SSjin in raw power.

LoL that's just an addition of the english version of the manga! In the original cover there wasn't any text added between Trunks and Goten as far as I know.

The fact the manga became more serious overtime doesn't disproe the fact that it was meant to be read by early-mid teenagers, and therefore it ISN'T meant to be complicated.

Define "complicated". I mean, the Cell saga with all the timelines is something much more complicated than anything we've been discussing here, so...

 

[Tapion]

I accidentally deleted my response when i was about to publish it. FTSIO, i have stuff to do. As the great Evil Vegeta once said: I'll just let you have the last word.

 

[Zippy]

I rage quit after responding twice and even those responses werent even half the effort you put in lol

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Jesus, this thread's harder to kill than Bringer of Death's Cell.

 

[DBZetaUser2013]

wat