(Manga only) 50% Freezer vs 2nd Form Cell

[freezamite]

I'm... I'm sorry, how is this not a complete curbstomp? Freeza is dead instantly.

Well, in fact it should be 40% Freezer, 50% Freezer was above ASSJ Vegeta and we all saw what he could do to 2nd form Cell. Remember that we're speaking about the manga incarnations of those characters, not their anime counterparts.

 

[Sam]

I have read the manga, I just legit don't understand the argument. I own all the Shonen releases. I don't know how an argument could be made that 40-50% Freeza could withstand Android 17 or 18 much less Cell. Hell, he would get killed by No. 19!

 

[Sam]

Goku had almost no strength left after the Genki-dama. By your logic, Goku was massively underpowered as well because he was so beat down prior to his SSj multiplier.

Vegeta was nowhere near No. 18 in strength. He didn't damage more than her clothes.

 

[Tapion]

I'm... I'm sorry, how is this not a complete curbstomp? Freeza is dead instantly.

Well, in fact it should be 40% Freezer, 50% Freezer was above ASSJ Vegeta and we all saw what he could do to 2nd form Cell. Remember that we're speaking about the manga incarnations of those characters, not their anime counterparts.

If this is actually 40% Freeza, Cell erases him from existence even faster than before

 

[Sam]

Man I'm sorry but you must be smoking something that I want a hit from. Kaiokenx20 Goku being weaker than SSj Goku?

These are the official ones given in one of the recent Super Exciting Guide books. It gave them as this:

Super Saiyan - 50x the Saiyan's normal battle power. This is the old standard which was crafted from the events of the battle with Freeza and has been repeated in a whole bunch of things since then.

They both lost a lot of power. Goku lost way more than Freeza. The Genki-dama phased him, yes, but Goku was completely drained before his transformation and got sucked into the explosion with Piccolo as well, evidenced by the fact that Piccolo had to pull a semi conscious Goku out of the massive sinkhole.

 

[freezamite]

Man I'm sorry but you must be smoking something that I want a hit from. Kaiokenx20 Goku being weaker than SSj Goku?

These are the official ones given in one of the recent Super Exciting Guide books. It gave them as this:

Super Saiyan - 50x the Saiyan's normal battle power. This is the old standard which was crafted from the events of the battle with Freeza and has been repeated in a whole bunch of things since then.

They both lost a lot of power. Goku lost way more than Freeza. The Genki-dama phased him, yes, but Goku was completely drained before his transformation and got sucked into the explosion with Piccolo as well, evidenced by the fact that Piccolo had to pull a semi conscious Goku out of the massive sinkhole.

Yes, but Goku had a rage boost that replenished (and even augmented) his previous strength. You only have to compare how tired Goku was in the chapter you mention (he needs Piccolo's help for something as simple as getting out of the watter) and how fresh he was when even without his SSJ he managed to dodge one of Freezer's kienzan at chapter 325.

Furthermore, SSJ Trunks had the same strength Namek Goku SSJ had, and post-Yadrat Goku (that didn't have much time to train) was at that level as well, further demonstrating that the energy Goku may have lost was recovered with the rage boost.

And yes, I already know what the "guides" say, those guides that put Nappa at 4000, Raditz at 1500 and etc. etc. of blatantly huge contradictions with the MANGA (we're speaking of the manga here, not the anime).

Finally, do you really think that Goku Namek SSJ was only 50 times as strong as someone that didn't even have enough energy to swim or stand up by himself? Even Raditz would be stronger than that SSJ, so it's obvious that when the "guides" say "50x as powerful" they mean Goku's usual power in his base state. As I've said, that contradicts the manga at nearly every single page of it, and that's why I explicitly said Manga only in the title.

If this is actually 40% Freeza, Cell erases him from existence even faster than before

Considering that Cell was curbstomped by Vegeta, who was more or less 50% as powerful as FPSSJ Goku at that time, and considering that Cell saga FPSSJ Goku was below Freezer... no, I don't think so.

Vegeta was nowhere near No. 18 in strength. He didn't damage more than her clothes.

Vegeta could fight with serious No. 18 evenly for a few seconds/minutes. It doesn't matter if he didn't damage her that much, she didn't damage him that much either until he had lost enough strength for her to do so.

 

[Sam]

She beat the shit out of him, drew blood near instantly, and was stated to not be fighting seriously. Those guidebooks are stated to be canon. Vegeta had both of his arms broken with ease.

You pointed out Piccolo and SSj Vegeta (Android Saga) were not too far apart in strength. Okay. How come Piccolo was literally one shot by Android 17, also not fighting seriously as they tended to do as was stated multiple times in the manga, and Android 17 was stated in the back of the manga to only be slightly stronger than 18?

 

[freezamite]

She beat the shit out of him, drew blood near instantly, and was stated to not be fighting seriously. Those guidebooks are stated to be canon. Vegeta had both of his arms broken with ease.

Look, you only have to read that fight. Vegeta and #18 start fighting, with Vegeta having a slight advantage. Then #18 says she wasn't fighting seriously and Vegeta tells her to go all out, which she agrees.
Then #18 completely overpowers Vegeta (who still wasn't going all out against her), and then we have the final round, with both of them fighting with all of their strength.
Both of them are equally strong, but Piccolo points that while the Android remains as strong as ever, Vegeta loses strength with every move he makes.
After that, we see Vegeta losing the fight, as Piccolo explained to us.

And there's no reason to think both #18 and #17 lied when they talked about #18's power.

You pointed out Piccolo and SSj Vegeta (Android Saga) were not too far apart in strength. Okay. How come Piccolo was literally one shot by Android 17, also not fighting seriously as they tended to do as was stated multiple times in the manga, and Android 17 was stated in the back of the manga to only be slightly stronger than 18?

#17 was stronger than #18, we know the difference wasn't night and day but he was stronger as stated in the manga.
Then we have Piccolo at Trunks SSJ levels of powers, did you see how much SSJ Trunks lasted against #18? In DB a 10-20% difference in power means the weaker gets curbstomped like it was a fly. So the difference between SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo pre-fusion may have been big in DB terms, but not that big when you consider Vegeta was at the very best 15% stronger than Piccolo.

 

[Sam]

You are either an excellent troll or in my dozen years of debating Dragonball I have never seen someone stick to their guns this hard. I gotta give you props for that, but, I don't see that there is any way either of us will agree with the other here xD sorry mate.

 

[freezamite]

You are either an excellent troll or in my dozen years of debating Dragonball I have never seen someone stick to their guns this hard. I gotta give you props for that, but, I don't see that there is any way either of us will agree with the other here xD sorry mate.

Hahahahah well I'm not trolling it's just that unlike the huge majority of the fanbase I discovered Dragon Ball through the manga and I only watched the anime much afterwards so all my references are from there.

Regarding #18 vs Vegeta, you can also look at Vegeta's reaction to #18's power in order to confirm the difference wasn't huge. Any time that Vegeta was completely overpowered, his reaction was always of fear and/or desperation. Versus Zarbon after Zarbon transforms, versus Freezer, versus Cell... there isn't a single instance of Vegeta being trashed and him being happy or confident in himself (he was no Goku).
If the difference between Vegeta and #18 had been that big, Vegeta's reaction against her would go against his character (even when she goes all out while he doesn't and she overpowers him, Vegeta never looses his confidence).
It's only after his power has depleted enough for #18 to stomp him that Vegeta loses his confidence.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Here's what I think the power gaps are using your Frieza Saga rules.

I'm gonna use the fact that people compared SSJ Future Trunks to SSJ Namek Goku to call them equal. Yardrat Goku blocked his sword strikes with one finger.

Tenshinhan had seen Yardrat Goku and he didn't realize anything was wrong when Goku was sick, so Sick Goku is at least as strong as Yardrat Goku. Piccolo said his power should be much greater than that at full power and Vegeta was stronger.

Imperfect Cell was described as being "a huge ki" by Vegeta, which implies he's at least in Vegeta's league. Piccolo beat him with weights on. As we've seen in the 23rd Budokai, taking off weighted clothing can turn a fight from an equal contest into a curbstomp. Unweighted Piccolo would be strong enough to curbstomp Imperfect Cell, Vegeta or 18.

Once he absorbed millions of people Cell tanked Piccolo's strongest attack with absolutely no damage. 16 was as strong as that, but Semi-Perfect Cell pretty much one-shot him. We see later that Cell is hiding enough power that he thinks he can turn the tide against Vegeta, so he's holding back a pretty good amount against 16.

This makes the chain 25% Frieza = SSJ Future Trunks < Yardrat Goku =< Sick Androids Goku < Androids Goku < Androids Vegeta =< Imperfect Cell (1st Fight) < Weighted Piccolo < Piccolo < Imperfect Cell (2nd Fight) =< 16 < Semi-Perfect Cell (Holding Back) < Semi-Perfect Cell.

I just can't believe that someone's power wouldn't double from the start of that long, long chain to the end. I'm 90% sure all this stuff is in the manga.

 

[Tapion]

Considering that Cell was curbstomped by Vegeta, who was more or less 50% as powerful as FPSSJ Goku at that time, and considering that Cell saga FPSSJ Goku was below Freezer... no, I don't think so.

I have never seen someone so devoted to trolling before. You have my congratulations.
Cell Saga FPSSjin Goku is even below his Namek saga self. Lol, the FPSSjin training actually DECREASED his power. Poor Goku didn't even notice it.

 

[ahill1]

So FPSSJ Goku (vs Cell) is weaker than Freeza now, huh?

 

[freezamite]

I'm gonna use the fact that people compared SSJ Future Trunks to SSJ Namek Goku to call them equal. Yardrat Goku blocked his sword strikes with one finger.

Not a good feat considering Trunks didn't attack Goku seriously (unlike when he fought against Mecha), stated by both Goku and Trunks himself. Goku and Trunks had about the same power level.

Tenshinhan had seen Yardrat Goku and he didn't realize anything was wrong when Goku was sick, so Sick Goku is at least as strong as Yardrat Goku. Piccolo said his power should be much greater than that at full power and Vegeta was stronger.

In fact Piccolo says "the power of a SSJ should be much greater than that", not "the power of Goku". Ten Shin never saw Goku fighting at his maximum strength, and even if he did, ki sensing isn't as precise as a scoutter, so even an ill Goku may have had an "overwelming" power even if it wasn't as big as it should be.
If you want more examples, when Krilin and Gohan first see Freezer he is travelling with both Zarbon and Dodoria, but they only recognised Freezer as being stronger than earth Vegeta (when we know that Zarbon and Dodoria were both much stronger than earth Vegeta).

Imperfect Cell was described as being "a huge ki" by Vegeta, which implies he's at least in Vegeta's league.

A bit below Vegeta in my opinion, but still in his league. I agree.

Piccolo beat him with weights on. As we've seen in the 23rd Budokai, taking off weighted clothing can turn a fight from an equal contest into a curbstomp. Unweighted Piccolo would be strong enough to curbstomp Imperfect Cell, Vegeta or 18.

I don't know to witch extent the extra weight affects once you get so strong, but I agree in that he was considerably stronger than those fighters. I don't know if he would've been able to totally curbstomp #18 though, even if he could curbstomp her initially.

Once he absorbed millions of people Cell tanked Piccolo's strongest attack with absolutely no damage.

Not millions but hundreds of thousands. And he tanked Piccolo's strongest attack after connecting some good hits, which without any kind of doubt had a big impact on Piccolo's energy (which already wasn't at his 100% when Cell arrived).

This makes the chain 25% Frieza = SSJ Future Trunks < Yardrat Goku =< Sick Androids Goku < Androids Goku < Androids Vegeta =< Imperfect Cell (1st Fight) < Weighted Piccolo < Piccolo < Imperfect Cell (2nd Fight) =< 16 < Semi-Perfect Cell (Holding Back) < Semi-Perfect Cell.

My chain:
25% Frieza > (not by much) SSJ Future Trunks = SSJ Namek Goku = Yadrat Goku >> Sick Androids Goku <<< Androids Goku = Ginger City Imperfect Cell <= Androids Vegeta << kami-Piccolo (we don't know how much the weights affected Piccolo) << Imperfect Cell (2nd Fight) = 16 << Semi-Perfect Cell (Holding Back) < Semi-Perfect Cell.

In other words:
25% Frieza 3.100.000 > 2.900.000 SSJ Future Trunks = SSJ Namek Goku = Yadrat Goku >> 1.200.000 Sick Androids Goku <<< 3.050.000 Androids Goku = Ginger City Imperfect Cell < 3.100.000 Androids Vegeta << 3.400.000 kami-Piccolo << 3.800.000 Imperfect Cell (2nd Fight) = #16 << 4.700.000 Semi-Perfect Cell (Holding Back) < 5.000.000 Semi-Perfect Cell

As I've said, 40% Freezer would be a better match in my opinion.

Cell Saga FPSSjin Goku is even below his Namek saga self. Lol, the FPSSjin training actually DECREASED his power. Poor Goku didn't even notice it.

No, in fact that's you not understanding my point or trolling what I say. FFPSSJin Goku, at more than 10.000.000 units, more than triple Namek Goku's SSJ power.

So FPSSJ Goku (vs Cell) is weaker than Freeza now, huh?

It has always been unless you spin some facts, ignore the ones you don't like and call it a day.

 

[Void]

I have never seen someone so devoted to trolling before. You have my congratulations.

You have to give him props for having such conviction.

Anyways, I whipped together some minimalist PLs and I still end up with CG FPSS Goku being some 25x stronger than Freeza

 

[freezamite]

I have never seen someone so devoted to trolling before. You have my congratulations.

You have to give him props for having such conviction.

Anyways, I whipped together some minimalist PLs and I still end up with CG FPSS Goku being some 25x stronger than Freeza

Then put your numbers, it will be easy to see if they contemplate all the manga feats and quotes, or if they don't

 

[Tapion]

It has always been unless you spin some facts, ignore the ones you don't like and call it a day.

It has never been like that. The problem is that you make up stuff that's unsupported by the manga and try to pass it out as fact.

 

[freezamite]

It has always been unless you spin some facts, ignore the ones you don't like and call it a day.

It has never been like that. The problem is that you make up stuff that's unsupported by the manga and try to pass it out as fact.

If that's the case I'm sure you'll find an example of what you say of made up stuff that goes against the manga for my part, the correct explanation for that fact/feat and the alternative corrected version of it.

For example, nearly every single list I've read in this forum has at least 2 major flaws that directly contradict the manga:
1. Freezer not being affected by the Genkidama despite it being affected by absolutely any other attack, but for reasons no one knows, the Genkidama that nearly killed Freezer didn't have any effect on him. Of course, that contradicts the manga in tons and tons of spots.

2. 50x multiplier for Goku SSJ in Namek. Even if we accept that 1 is the manga's flaw (it clearly isn't) one only has to read that fight to realise that SSJ Goku and Freezer were much, much closer between them than Vegeta and Dodoria, but a 50x multiplier implies that the difference between Goku SSJ and 100% Freezer was as big as that or even bigger.

See? It's really easy to do if you know your facts, don't you think?

 

[Sam]

I discovered Dragonball through the manga too. I watched the anime first, true, but I was a little boy and I don't remember much. During when the Boo arc started airing in America and I missed a bunch of Cell & Freeza, I started ordering the Shonen Jump manga. I bought my first one in third or fourth grade IIRC.

 

[Sam]

Vegeta can't sense the Androids ki. He could sense Zarbon, Freeza, etc. He was also annoyed to be fighting a woman.

Also, Trunks was one shot by one of the two Androids too. I think 17. Knocked the Super Saiyan right out of him. The back of the manga says 17 was only slightly stronger than 18. The Androids were toying with them, even as 18 whooped Vegeta's ass.

Also, Vegeta acted completely confident when Perfect Cell emerged. We all know how that turned out. Majin Boo as well. Gohan. The Cell Jrs. The list goes on and on. Final form Freeza too, after he got his zenkai boost. You make some halfway logical points on individual topics but they completely fall apart as we keep going through the series and comparing feats from various characters.

Also, Cell had the cells of Saiyans and Freeza who stated himself he was stronger in his Mecha form (debatable but this is still Freeza) and King Cold. How could even Imperfect Cell be weaker?