(Manga only) 50% Freezer vs 2nd Form Cell

[Diamond Ryan]

Yes, most people here seems to be big fans from the anime and have a vastly different view on the series than me.

Nah, the anime has way too much filler in it and is too slow paced.

No kidding, I can't even watch the original subbed anymore without skipping parts. Thank god they made Kai.

Even that has some filler in it. The Ginyu frog switching bodies with Bulma comes to mind.

 

[Void]

Nah, the anime has way too much filler in it and is too slow paced.

No kidding, I can't even watch the original subbed anymore without skipping parts. Thank god they made Kai.

Even that has some filler in it. The Ginyu frog switching bodies with Bulma comes to mind.

Oh, it still doesn't approach the manga in my opinion. But in Z from beginning to the end of the Cell arc was like ~190 episodes and Kai brought it down to about 100. Way more tolerable, to me at least.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

No kidding, I can't even watch the original subbed anymore without skipping parts. Thank god they made Kai.

Even that has some filler in it. The Ginyu frog switching bodies with Bulma comes to mind.

Oh, it still doesn't approach the manga in my opinion. But in Z from beginning to the end of the Cell arc was like ~190 episodes and Kai brought it down to about 100. Way more tolerable, to me at least.

Agreed. I think I read somewhere that in the original Z anime, it took four episodes for Piccolo to reach Freeza and the others after he fused with Nail. And of course we can't forget about five minutes.

 

[Papasmurf]

I believe even in Kai it took like 2 episodes to charge up the spirit bomb

 

[freezamite]

Nah, the anime has way too much filler in it and is too slow paced.

No kidding, I can't even watch the original subbed anymore without skipping parts. Thank god they made Kai.

Even that has some filler in it. The Ginyu frog switching bodies with Bulma comes to mind.

A bit of an off-topic, but I remember editing the whole Goku vs Freezer fight of DBZ Kai, and even leaving some filler I could perfectly cut two chapters into one.

That being said, I'm speaking about how most of the people here discovered the series. Every Power list I've read follows the Toei "logic" instead of the internal rules the manga established.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

No kidding, I can't even watch the original subbed anymore without skipping parts. Thank god they made Kai.

Even that has some filler in it. The Ginyu frog switching bodies with Bulma comes to mind.

A bit of an off-topic, but I remember editing the whole Goku vs Freezer fight of DBZ Kai, and even leaving some filler I could perfectly cut two chapters into one.

That being said, I'm speaking about how most of the people here discovered the series. Every Power list I've read follows the Toei "logic" instead of the internal rules the manga established.

Yeah, a lot of people probably discovered the series through the anime, but I can assure you that for debate purposes, almost everyone here uses the manga.

 

[freezamite]

Even that has some filler in it. The Ginyu frog switching bodies with Bulma comes to mind.

A bit of an off-topic, but I remember editing the whole Goku vs Freezer fight of DBZ Kai, and even leaving some filler I could perfectly cut two chapters into one.

That being said, I'm speaking about how most of the people here discovered the series. Every Power list I've read follows the Toei "logic" instead of the internal rules the manga established.

Yeah, a lot of people probably discovered the series through the anime, but I can assure you that for debate purposes, almost everyone here uses the manga.

I don't think so. I mean, they use the manga but applying to it the logic of the anime. One clear example of that is the KKx10 activation. The anime screwed it and drew an aura to the KK once Freezer was already at 50% of his power, in the manga the KKx10 never had an aura but since most people saw the anime first, a simple flight aura is mistaken by a KKx10 one and the whole coherency of the manga put at the same level of the anime.

In other words, even if they have the manga in their hands, they still speak adapting it to what the anime showed.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku using the Kaio-Ken x10 the entire time is something people thought was true ages ago. He wasn't. The fact that this was his maximum (he wasn't sure if he could do a 20x increase), the fact that Freeza said he was holding-back a lot of power, and the fact that Goku agreed Freeza was right shows he clearly wasn't. The only way to reach another conclusion is by twisting the dialogue and adhering to strange logic.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, pretty much this, Evil Vegeta. At most Goku started using Kaioken vs Freeza without hands, but even that was probably a low level of Kaioken.

 

[freezamite]

The fact that this was his maximum (he wasn't sure if he could do a 20x increase)

Let's start by demonstrating that this is a fallacy. Goku not being sure he could resist the KKx20 doesn't mean the KKx10 is the maximum he could achieve, because between the KKx10 and the KKx20 there are 9 intermediate levels of KK.
The fact that he tried the KKx20 means that he could surely reach the KKx15 somewhat comfortably at the very least. By the way, going from KKx18 to KKx20 would already be your usual mid-fight power up, so with a bit of context it's not difficult to guess that before knowing about Freezer's strength Goku thought a KKx12 or KKx13 would be the maximum he would've needed.

So your fallacy: you act as if the KKx11 to KKx19 doesn't exist and can't be used under any circumstance. Only then your reasoning saying "if Goku wasn't sure he could reach the KKx20 it means he couldn't go further than KKx10, and that means that when he told Freezer he could increase his strength even more he meant going from base to the KKx10 because he wasn't sure about the KKx20 and the KKx11-19 doesn't exist" becomes true.

I don't know why wouldn't the KKx11 or KKx12 exist. We saw the KKx2, KKx3 and KKx4 in the earth, and in Namek Goku used the KKx2 (against Ginyu), the KKx10 and the KKx20 against Freezer. Does that mean that the KKx5 wouldn't be possible for Goku even if he wanted to use it? Why would the KKx3 or KKx4 exist and not the KKx5 or the KKx11. They obviously were possible, and Goku obviously took them into consideration.

the fact that Freeza said he was holding-back a lot of power, and the fact that Goku agreed Freeza was right shows he clearly wasn't.

Of course, if Goku could go as far as to use the KKx20 and he was already using the KKx10, any level between the KKx10 and the KKx20 Goku could reach if needed would already be a huge increase in power. A 10-20% difference in DB is already a big increase in power, so Goku fighting at 50% the maximum strength he could achieve is him holding back a lot of power (a lot more than in any other fight Goku has ever fought).

The only way to reach another conclusion is by twisting the dialogue and adhering to strange logic.

Yes, to think that Goku could use the KKx11 or KKx12 in case of need is only possible by twisting the dialogue and adhering to a strange logic. It's much more logic to assume that once you reached the KKx10, the only KK possible going from there is the KKx20 (I disagree).

So my "strange logic" is that when Goku said he could become stronger it's because he clearly had bigger levels of KK he could use in the fight.

Now, let's demonstrate why the KKx10 wasn't activated in the middle of the fight. Let's say the KKx10 was activated here because Goku has an aura (even if his black eyes already demonstrate that this is not a KK aura, but let's assume that Toriyama made a typo on his drawing and that this should have been a KK aura):
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-10.html

Then, that forcibly means that the KKx10 is not activated in those pages:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-6.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-9.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-14.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-119-index-2-page-1.html

That breaks any kind of logic the fight could have and every single rule the manga had established until then and from then onward. So, Freezer is hitting with enough strength to damage Goku while using the KK10, but then suddenly Goku can also resist those hits without the KKx10?
What kind of logic can explain this? Or freezer detects Goku's strength and constantly goes from 50% to 5% of his strength to not kill Goku (which doesn't have any sense) or Toriyama screwed and made a "this is Toei and I don't care about my work's consistency any more".

Not only that, but Freezer would also break another implicit rule of the manga regarding the surprise attacks. Never before a 10x increased could be anticipated like this. In fact, even much, much smaller increases (Freezer going from 50% to 70%) were enough to catch much better fighters by surprise. And now Freezer suddenly anticipates a 10x increase?

The fight becomes absolutely incoherent no matter how you look at it.
By the way, when Kaio says that Goku IS ALREADY USING THE KKX10, if you look at Goku in those pages, he doesn't have an aura.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

There's no fallacy. The Kaio-Ken x10 is Goku's maximum:

Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”

We have no reason to assume he can go higher than that until he brings up the Kaio-Ken x20.

The actual line:

Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

"Now" as in the moment he's speaking. That's nowhere near the same as saying he was using it for the entire battle, which is ridiculous.

Kaio was saying that while Goku was getting his ass beat. The following chapter shows Goku use the Kaio-Ken x10 to escape from Freeza:

Goku never has a Kaio-Ken aura when he's taking hits. This is shown as far back as the Saiyan saga.

So there's no Kaio-Ken x11-x19 in this context. If Kaio says he's using the Kaio-Ken x10 right then and there, it means what it says. Believing otherwise is adhering to an incorrect theory.

 

[Tapion]

Krillin maybe couldn't know how terrible the non-existent "Perfect" Cell is, but as long as he wasn't retarded he could perfectly know that a warrior made of the best parts of Freezer, Cold, Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku could be stronger than Freezer.
Every single time they speak of Cell as a menace, they speak about a potential Perfect Cell, never about Ginger Town Cell who was in fact the one they were pursuing because it was the easier option (easier than the androids).

Except he doesn't say he could, he say this thing IS more terrible than Freeza, as in he already is. Anyway, what are you trying to argue to here? Krillin is clearly talking about Imperfect Cell, which renders your "50% Freeza = Second Form Cell" theory completely invalid. You have absolutely nothing to stand on other than assumptions, and completely baseless ones at that.

That's looking too far into a concrete translation. As I've already said, there are other translations with a different wording on the sentence that go perfectly with my take on the question, and even in English, if he's speaking in a general sense the use of the present time is also correct.

What other translations say or what they don't say doesn't matter. You're literally contradicting yourself by adhering to incorrect translations. You supposedly believe everything is cut & dry and now you're trying to argue Viz > correct translation? I don't even know what to say to that.

I don't think he would be that much of a menace to Trunks (I'm still not convinced he was above SSJ Vegeta considering how the fight against #18 went) but even if he was, why would Goku be afraid of Ginger Town Cell? He was going to God's palace and Cell was a weakling compared to Piccolo, why would he be afraid and excited about that?
Excited? Maybe, but afraid? They were only afraid of Cell becoming much stronger...

Because Cell is still much stronger than he is and was starting to absorb humans.

Yes, Cell's power was huge as I've said, at least SSJ levels of huge. But why would Goku be scared of something that Piccolo could erase as if it was nothing?

The menace wasn't Cell at Ginger Town, it was Cell as a complete being:
DBZ 171:
Ten: "We must thwart its fusion with nos 17 and 18, or else..."
Piccolo: "Not just earth, but all the planets in the galaxy will be in danger. Don't forget that it has Freeza's blood too!"

That's not Ginger Town Cell they're speaking about, it's a potential Perfect Cell that scared them.

Nope, they were talking about Imperfect Cell who was gaining power by absorbing humans.

Was #17 also lying? And why would she lie? I mean, what would be the point in lying about her going all out and then saying this to Vegeta:
DBZ 159:
-#18: "Is Son Goku even stronger than you?"
- Vegeta: No.
-#18: "Then I don't have to worry about any of you"

So we go from an #18 that lies about going all out to play with Vegeta to an #18 that says that Vegeta isn't something she has to worry about, all without ever saying to him anything like "I've been lying to you, I was using only a fraction of my power!".
Vegeta was helpless against her because she was as strong as him and also had the plus of the unlimited energy. What could Vegeta possibly do against her?

Vegeta is a seasoned warrior with Saiyan durability, experience, and skill. #18 is a teenager, the only difference being her power and her unlimited energy. You're literally arguing "unexperienced teenager with unlimited reserves of ki >> seasoned warrior at equal power levels"

Nope. Vegeta was helpless against her because she was much stronger than he was.

 

[Pyro]

What? #18 was clearly much stronger than Vegeta. It's even stated through proxy that #18 is when she's compared to a newly merged Kamiccolo, who's power made Vegeta poop himself.

 

[Tapion]

I forgot all about that. Weighted Kamiccolo, who rivals 18, managed to make Vegeta drop out of Super Saiyan with his aura. @freezamite Also, nobody uses the anime here. You're literally being a hypocrite by claiming we are influenced by the anime when we clearly aren't, because you know the manga doesn't support your POV.

 

[freezamite]

There's no fallacy. The Kaio-Ken x10 is Goku's maximum:

Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”

We have no reason to assume he can go higher than that until he brings up the Kaio-Ken x20.

Of course, until he does it. But once we know Goku is capable of a KKx20, it's obvious a KKx11 - KKx19 were also feasible options to him. If KKx10 would've been his maximum, he wouldn't have even attempted a KKx20, the sole fact that Goku contemplates the KKx20 demonstrates that KKx11-KKx12 were feasible options to him, and of course, Goku never thought he would need even more than that.

The actual line:

Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

"Now" as in the moment he's speaking. That's nowhere near the same as saying he was using it for the entire battle, which is ridiculous.

"Now" means that Goku is already using the KK when he is speaking, which means that if it hasn't been activated before, it has been being used since the beginning of the fight. By the way, do you see any aura (in the manga) around Goku when Kaito says that?

Kaio was saying that while Goku was getting his ass beat. The following chapter shows Goku use the Kaio-Ken x10 to escape from Freeza:

Goku never has a Kaio-Ken aura when he's taking hits. This is shown as far back as the Saiyan saga.

Was Freezer using a KK as well? That's clearly a flying aura and not a KK aura.
And by the way, the aura of a KK is drawn depending on if it affects the composition of the drawing, you also have pictures of Goku attacking while using the KK without an aura in the saiyan saga. But even when there wasn't an aura, it was always clearly obvious if Goku was using the KK or not, like in this picture for example:

See how was Goku colored even if there is no aura? That clearly indicated the KK was still active.

So there's no Kaio-Ken x11-x19 in this context. If Kaio says he's using the Kaio-Ken x10 right then and there, it means what it says. Believing otherwise is adhering to an incorrect theory.

Of course there's KKx11 to KKx19. The sole fact that Goku uses the KKx20 proves that he could endure a KKx11 to KKx19 and he knew it. In fact, your quote from when he arrives at Namek proves that. When he arrived he felt strong enough to endure a KKx10, but when he heals and before going to fight Freezer he felts amazed at how strong he has become and that plus the fact that he uses the KKx20 confirms it even more.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I know we've all kind of forgotten what the thread was about. Let's pretend I agree with you on, well, anything about Goku vs Frieza.

I still think Cell takes this. There were so many tiers of power already in the Android saga I think there's no way Cell hasn't doubled from a Namek arc SSJ. Whether he's quadrupled, though, is a bit more challenging...

 

[Keedounan]

I know we've all kind of forgotten what the thread was about. Let's pretend I agree with you on, well, anything about Goku vs Frieza.

I still think Cell takes this. There were so many tiers of power already in the Android saga I think there's no way Cell hasn't doubled from a Namek arc SSJ. Whether he's quadrupled, though, is a bit more challenging...

This.

/thread.

 

[freezamite]

I know we've all kind of forgotten what the thread was about. Let's pretend I agree with you on, well, anything about Goku vs Frieza.

I still think Cell takes this. There were so many tiers of power already in the Android saga I think there's no way Cell hasn't doubled from a Namek arc SSJ. Whether he's quadrupled, though, is a bit more challenging...

The power gaps weren't as big as the anime pretended them to be.
For example, (if you agree with me) Freezer had 4 times the strength of Namek Goku SSJ, maybe a tad more.
We know the power Cell gained in order to defeat Piccolo like it was nothing (between half and 1 and a half million units thanks to absorbing hundreds of thousands of random people), so we have that.
Then we have that A20 was above SSJ Vegeta after he had lost energy fighting A19, so the difference between Piccolo pre-fusion and SSJ Vegeta wasn't as big as a lot of people say.
And SSJ Vegeta was as strong as A18 according to the manga, even if he was a much worse fighter because he lacked the unlimited energy.
Furthermore, Cell's absorptions doesn't carry between transformations, so his 1st to 2nd form transformation had a smaller jump (even proportionally speaking) than his 2nd to 3rd forms.

I don't think the power tiers are nearly as big. Perfect Cell was the best of the best of Goku, Freezer, Cold, Vegeta and Piccolo, and we all know who had the strongest Cells of the bunch when Guero grabbed them. Freezer had some problems when he wanted to use 100% of his power (both in endurance and in speed), so Perfect Cell was stronger not having that defect but the difference couldn't be that big...

 

[Sam]

I'm... I'm sorry, how is this not a complete curbstomp? Freeza is dead instantly.

 

[Papasmurf]

Not if he trains for 4 days