(Manga only) 50% Freezer vs 2nd Form Cell

[withheldforprivacy]

Even so, Goku preferred to use SSJ instead of KK from that point on. And he could
use 10x KK without any drawbacks.

 

[freezamite]

Even so, Goku preferred to use SSJ instead of KK from that point on. And he could
use 10x KK without any drawbacks.

There were drawbacks implied in the Cell saga like the heart disease that was connected to the KK (it would require a long explanation), and in fact it's directly implied that Goku had to use the KK against Mecha Freezer / Cold in the original timeline.

But in our timeline it didn't have much sense to use it. Goku knew that the SSJ had much more potential than the KK without having it's drawbacks (the SSJ generated a lot of stress to the body and he surely knew what that meant considering his speciality is precisely the high degree of control he has over his ki).
The androids weren't the killing machines Trunks described so there was no need to rush and kill them all with a KKx20 that would also harm him even more, and considering Goku's personality he preferred to develop his SSJ (a mastered SSJ transformation is much stronger than any KK ever displayed in the series) and test that fighting against Perfect Cell even if that meant putting the earth at risk.

 

[ahill1]

That goes directly against the overall rule that an injured character loses strength. And why would Freezer lose energy if he was caught in the explosion of Namek but not when he was caught on the Genkidama?
Freezer being at 100% when he went 100% would be bad writing considering the context of the series, so unless there's a statement out there that I missed confirming that Freezer doesn't lose energy when he is injured, then he should do it.
He clearly loses energy when he is cut with the kienzans, he is aware that he will lose energy if the planet explosion catches him and his "even injured I still can kill you all" sentence wouldn't have any sense if he was still fresh as if nothing had happened so everything points to him having lost energy.
Furthermore, that would cause further contradictions with the manga, because why did Goku give Cell a senzu bean if Freezer wasn't affected by the injuries and of course that ability transferred to him?

Freeza still clearly has access to his true power. He explictly said he'd go 100%:

Goku also explictly said he wants to fight Freeza at his best, to which Freeza never denied, only laughed:


Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”


This all loses completely its meanings if it's not towards Freeza's full power, even more if it's referring to a version way below his half power.

Freeza also flat out stated that Goku (note: he was only referring to his SSJ) is astonishingly powerful and would be the best in the universe if it wasn't for Freeza:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P14.3-4
Freeza: "I'll give you a pat on the head before you die. You're astonishingly powerful, Super Saiyan! You would be thew greatest in the Universe... if it weren't for me!"

All which doesn't make any sense if Goku SSJ was weaker than his freaking Kaioken x10.

2. Even if Gohan could have compared Goku's Ki to his previous KK states with 100% of accuracy, it wouldn't make any sense for Gohan to state it. Goku was a SSJ and he was stronger than Freezer at that point, why would Gohan have the necessity to say "hey father, don't get cocky because you aren't that strong"?

Gohan also felt Freeza's chi increasing like a rocket (when he was using 100%) and still was sure his dad would win, while on Earth. Piccolo also told, while on Earth, that Goku had no chances against Freeza and Gohan's reply was "No Piccolo. Dad will win! He's now a SSJ!!", without even making mention of Freeza being weakened, which downright shows the issue here is Goku becoming a SSJ, not Freeza being weakened.

http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-133-index-2-page-4.html


Mecha Freeza also stated that he powered up and that, in spite of it, he still just might be stronger now, so much so he brought his dad along with him, clearly showing he was still unsure about his victory. Are you gonna say he would act that way against someone that could be handled by his former 50% power?

Kuririn, who has sensed Freeza's 50% power, also blatantly states this thing is even stronger than Freeza, making the comparison between 50% Freeza and Semi Cell useless:

Unless Toriyama was possessed by a spirit when he was drawing the manga and could only guess what that spirit had on mind, then what he felt is what was drawn.
One doesn't draw a character with the idea of giving him a power of 1.000 and then that character magically ends with a power of 10.000 unless he screws the writing.
He drew the SSJ being close to the KKx10, and that also happens to be the better approach considering that your option implies a multitude of writing errors for Toriyama's part.
I insist in that if we go with your interpretation then Freezer only looses strength when the plot requires it and not when he should, Cell is also a contradiction because shouldn't loose any strength if Freezer didn't loose it, and Toriyama basically fucked everything up only to portray an idea that wasn't what he had on mind to begin with. And all that while Freezer speaks as if he had actually lost strength which would make the writing even worse (if Toriyama didn't want to weaken Freezer, it would've been as easy as to make him say something like "that was your best attack monkey? Because it has felt like a mosquito bite to me").

Herms (the actual translator) also said that, taking this statement literally, "up to that point" would indicate Kaioken x20:

People gloss over this a lot, but specifically what Toriyama says is that at the time he drew Super Saiyan with the idea of Goku being 10 times stronger than he had been up until that point. And of course, up until that point, Goku had been using the Kaio-Ken to make himself 10 and then 20 times stronger. The x50 multiplier really only makes Goku 5/2.5 times stronger than he had been up until that point.
Kanzenshuu: Super!

Stated by Herms' himself. The SSJ boost was clearly not 10x the base form in the fight against Freeza, since as, already explained above, the chain of 50% Freeza >>> Super Saiyajin Goku = Kaioken x10 Goku doesn't make a lick of sense.

Those numbers would add even more inconsistencies to the series in my opinion.

It wouldn't, really. I'll make a quick breakdown to you:

Freeza's 1st form has a battle power of 530k, stated by the man himself:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-92-index-2-page-5.html

Freeza, after just turning into his 2nd form, has a battle power of (initially) over a million, again, stated by the man himself:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-102-index-2-page-9.html

After getting beaten by Gohan, he feels menaced enough to do a power up, noted by Gohan and Vegeta:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-104-index-2-page-1.html

So far, we have: Freeza (2nd form/powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000

Piccolo comes into the scene and has a roughly even fight against Freeza, but the former has an advantage, as noted by Vegeta:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-107-index-2-page-9.html

Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000

Freeza decides to show his 2nd form's true power and begins to handle Piccolo without problems:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-107-index-2-page-11.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-107-index-2-page-12.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-107-index-2-page-13.html

Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000


Seeing he's outclassed, Piccolo opts to take off his weights. And while it's debatable if unweighted Piccolo was really above Freeza, he probably was, considering Freeza felt compelled to transform into his 3rd form and Gohan was sure of his master's victory, just like he was sure Goku SSJ would beat Freeza:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-107-index-2-page-18.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-107-index-2-page-18.html

Piccolo (unweighted) > Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000

Then Freeza transforms and his 3rd form is so fast, Piccolo cannot even see his movements, getting beated up pretty badly:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-108-index-2-page-13.html

Freeza 3rd form > Piccolo (unweighted) > Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000

After Gohan's enranged full blast, Freeza feels again compelled to transform, even though he stated he could get rid of them in his 3rd form.

Then he transforms, warranting reaction from Vegeta and Piccolo, who says Kuririn is naive to dudge Freeza's power based on his looks and that his new form makes his previous one look gentle:

http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-110-index-2-page-12.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-110-index-2-page-14.html

Freeza final form (initially) > Freeza 3rd form > Piccolo (unweighted) > Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000


Vegeta still could see Freeza's movements, save Gohan from Freeza's finger and was somewhat confident of his victory:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-111-index-2-page-8.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-111-index-2-page-9.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-111-index-2-page-12.html

Vegeta (final Zenkai) ~ Freeza final form (initially) > Freeza 3rd form > Piccolo (unweighted) > Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000

Freeza then increases his speed and is game over to Vegeta. The speed increase isn't mentioned in Viz, but it's mentioned by Herms' translations:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-111-index-2-page-14.html

Chapter: 305 (DBZ 111), P13.4
Context: Vegeta can’t follow Freeza’s movement
Freeza: “I get just a little serious and raise my speed, and it seems that you can’t keep up with me…Are you really a Super Saiyan?...”
Vegeta: “Im-impossible…”


Freeza (speed increase) > Vegeta (final Zenkai) ~ Freeza final form (initially) > Freeza 3rd form > Piccolo (unweighted) > Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000

Then this same Freeza has a rough even fight against base Goku (Goku didn't use Kaioken until his fight against non hands Freeza):
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-114-index-2-page-9.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-114-index-2-page-10.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-114-index-2-page-11.html

Freeza final form (speed increase) ~ Goku base > Vegeta (final Zenkai) ~ Freeza final form (initially) > Freeza 3rd form > Piccolo (unweighted) > Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000


And what's more? This Goku and Freeza were admittedly just warming up:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-116-index-2-page-14.html

So, all in all, we have:

Freeza (non hands) > Goku base (full power) > Freeza (warming up) ~ Goku base (warming up) > Vegeta (final Zenkai) ~ Freeza final form (initially) > Freeza 3rd form > Piccolo (unweighted) > Freeza 2nd form (full power) > Piccolo (weighted) > Freeza 2nd form (powered up) > Freeza 2nd form (initially) > 1,000,000


This might easily be a multifold gap. And yeah, Goku was just in base against non hands Freeza, as showed in the full colors:

Goku only had a Kaioken aura when fighting 50% Freeza:

Firstly, Cell's absorption method would be inconsistent. If by absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans he gained hundreds of millions of power, or nearly every human he absorbed was as strong as Raditz or he should've surpassed Piccolo once he got the energy of his arm.
On the other hand, 7.000.000 for Goku's base state would also contradict the 40 tons feat of the Bu saga that scales well with a base power limit of 300.000 to 400.000 at best.

These absorptions things are inconsistent: Babidi also thought Spopovich joined SSJ2's like energy just by absorbing it from hundred of people:

 

[freezamite]

Freeza still clearly has access to his true power. He explictly said he'd go 100%:

Goku also explictly said he wants to fight Freeza at his best, to which Freeza never denied, only laughed:


Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”


This all loses completely its meanings if it's not towards Freeza's full power, even more if it's referring to a version way below his half power.

Freeza also flat out stated that Goku (note: he was only referring to his SSJ) is astonishingly powerful and would be the best in the universe if it wasn't for Freeza:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P14.3-4
Freeza: "I'll give you a pat on the head before you die. You're astonishingly powerful, Super Saiyan! You would be thew greatest in the Universe... if it weren't for me!"

All which doesn't make any sense if Goku SSJ was weaker than his freaking Kaioken x10.

Of course they make sense. The only way they can't make sense is if we FORCE THE PREMISE that 100% means "all the strength Freezer has in perfect conditions".
But in the context of the scene there's another valid interpretation to those sentences that makes even more sense, and that interpretation is that 100% means "all the strength Freezer had at that moment".

Freezer was still fighting at 50% of his power and he went from that to 100%, so "using the full power", "using all the strength", "fighting at maximum power" and etc. all mean that Freezer won't be holding up part of his remaining power anymore.

Now, answer me this:
If according to you the 100% form has access to 100% of the power no matter how injured Freezer is, wasn't Freezer at his 100% of strength when he got cut by his own kienzans?
And if that was his 100% of strength why couldn't he even fly with his own strength? Is he weaker than Ten Shin Han ever was? Or wasn't Freezer at his 100% form anymore? And if he wasn't at his 100% anymore, why didn't he power up again to his 100% to at least put up a better fight?

100% is a percentage and it needs to be contextualized to have a meaning. If you don't want to incur in a dozen of contradictions with the rest of the manga or what Freezer says you have to take that "100%" as "all the strength Freezer had left at that moment".

Gohan also felt Freeza's chi increasing like a rocket (when he was using 100%) and still was sure his dad would win, while on Earth. Piccolo also told, while on Earth, that Goku had no chances against Freeza and Gohan's reply was "No Piccolo. Dad will win! He's now a SSJ!!", without even making mention of Freeza being weakened, which downright shows the issue here is Goku becoming a SSJ, not Freeza being weakened.

Gohan was Goku's son and it's only logical for a 5-6 year old kid to have blind confidence in his father. Of course to Gohan the most relevant thing is that his father had become the legendary SSJ, that doesn't mean that Freezer's injures didn't matter anymore in the overall picture.
Notice that you're using pretty vague (and forced) interpretations to negate solid facts from the manga. I mean, Gohan giving more importance to his father having become a SSJ than to Freezer's injuries is not a hard fact, it's just how Gohan described the situation at that given moment.
On the other hand it's not debatable that characters without unlimited energy lose energy when they're injured because it happens in every single fight, Freezer's fight included (see the kienzans).

Freezer had already stated that he was affected by the Genkidama at least twice:
"Even I thought I was dead... I nearly was..." -> The Genkidama was no joke to him.
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-10.html

(That translation is a bit different than the one I have but it has the same meaning)
"I'm still more than a match for all of you!!!" -> Why would he "still" be more than a match for them if the Genkidama did nothing to him?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-12.html

"If I'm stuck in the explosion, I'll loose even more power" -> Why would he loose "even more power" if he's stuck in an explosion if he is immune to explosions? Or was this immunity just limited to Genkidama explosions?
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-129-index-2-page-10.html
Those two last sentences truly doesn't have any sense if Freezer didn't loose any strength. Unless your 100% quotes that can all be interpreted in multiple ways, there's no way that you can grab those sentences and read them in a way that means "hahahah that hasn't affected me in the least".

You're trying to force the manga to fit your view of it instead of fitting your view of the manga to the hard facts described in it.

Mecha Freeza also stated that he powered up and that, in spite of it, he still just might be stronger now, so much so he brought his dad along with him, clearly showing he was still unsure about his victory. Are you gonna say he would act that way against someone that could be handled by his former 50% power?

Your premise assumes Freezer had all the facts and information about his fight on Namek in a way never before a DBZ fighter could've had.
1. Even if Freezer knew he had been weakened, it wasn't possible for him to know the extent of his injuries back in Namek. We have some pretty solid examples of that:
Vegeta in the earth (nearly in the end of the fight) after failing to kill them all with a ki blast of his own:
"Wh-what's... wrong with... me...? They... sh-should all be... dead... ngh... the damage... is worse than I thought... got to... kill them now... and get rest"
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-45-index-2-page-6.html

2. Of course, he also didn't know anything about the SSJ besides that he lost against it. Goku was as injured as him or even more, and even if we know that Goku regained his strength thanks to the rage boost, that was something Freezer was completely unaware of. To his eyes SSJ Goku could also be stronger than he was on Namek once healed.

3. Even if he had known that, in Namek he was nearly killed despite having the fight completely dominated because the other z-warriors interfered. So it's only logical that he would bring his father in order to prevent that situation of "everyone sucker punches Freezer" he had to endure in Namek.

Kuririn, who has sensed Freeza's 50% power, also blatantly states this thing is even stronger than Freeza, making the comparison between 50% Freeza and Semi Cell useless:

Multiple contracitions here if we use your interpretation of the statement:
1. Cell was inferior to even the Androids, so "this" doesn't make any sense, he should've said "those" at the very least.
2. That was after Piccolo explained them about Cell's intentions and who was Cell. Given the wording of the sentence it's more logical that he referred not to that incomplete Cell but to what potentially Cell could become. I mean, you don't need to be a genius to deduce that a warrior made of the best of Freezer, Cold, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo will be more terrible than Freezer.

Herms (the actual translator) also said that, taking this statement literally, "up to that point" would indicate Kaioken x20:

People gloss over this a lot, but specifically what Toriyama says is that at the time he drew Super Saiyan with the idea of Goku being 10 times stronger than he had been up until that point. And of course, up until that point, Goku had been using the Kaio-Ken to make himself 10 and then 20 times stronger. The x50 multiplier really only makes Goku 5/2.5 times stronger than he had been up until that point.
Kanzenshuu: Super!

That's an explanation Herms gave but it's pretty obvious it doesn't makes much sense.
It feels reeeeaaaally forced.

TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.

WOW.....

1. If Toriyama wanted to say that the SSJ was a 200x increase he would have said it directly. Instead you say he answered in an obscure way that makes 10x20 = 200x increase compared to the 50x increase the guides give. But if he wanted to count the KK as part of Goku's power why didn't he say "It was made up that Goku was 2.5 times stronger when he turned into a SSJ, but I drew it with the sense of it being 10x what he had been up til then?".
Furthermore, he uses the expression "this became a mountain out of a molehill", in that context this means that the 50x increase was exaggerated. Why would he say "50x was a mountain out of a molehill, he really was 10(x20)"? That would be outright retarded by his part (or a bad translation by Herms).
2. The way Herms takes the "up until that point" statement is also pretty forced. The literal "up until that point" is a Goku that has no energy and that couldn't even stand up by himself, he wasn't using KKx20 when he turned into a SSJ. So "up until that point" means "up until he used the KKx20 but not after and not sooner".
3. The KK has never been part of Goku's strength. Goku didn't have 24.000 units of power in the saiyan saga, he had 8000+ and he had a technique that allowed him to multiply that by whatever Goku felt necessary within his possibilities. The same applies to Namek.
4. 200x increase for the SSJ breaks the consistency of that fight even more. If 50x already breaks the internal rules of "loosing energy with the injuries" and "a 10-15% means complete dominance in a fight" (because if Freezer's power can be approximated to KKx40 then KKx50 is a solid 20% over that and that would mean there would be no fight) now we have to add to that how 50% Freezer that was KKx100 strong had any problems with Gokus KKx20 KameHame or if Freezer really was KKx40 in terms of strength, how the hell could he even put up a fight against someone that was 5 times stronger?

Stated by Herms' himself. The SSJ boost was clearly not 10x the base form in the fight against Freeza, since as, already explained above, the chain of 50% Freeza >>> Super Saiyajin Goku = Kaioken x10 Goku doesn't make a lick of sense.

You're not proving that successfully. As of now your evidences are your interpretations of certain quotes and Herms' take on what he translated (but given the translation is correct, his interpretation of it is pretty forced to say the least).
Why doesn't make "a lick of sense" to assume that the overall rules that are applied to every single fight of the manga are still applied here?
Why does Freezer not loose strength when he is injured by the Genkidama but he does when he is injured by his kienzans or a planet explosion? You still haven't explained that.
How is it that Cell can multiply by dozens of times the energy he absorbs except when it comes to Piccolo's energy?

As I've said, you're not adapting your stance to the facts, but the facts to your stance while ignoring any fact that can't be explained. For example, you can't explain why the Genkidama would be an exception when it comes to loosing energy (and you can't, because Vegeta clearly lost a lot of energy when he was injured by the Genkidama) so you ignore that and stick with circumstantial things like "if Freezer had lost energy Gohan would've said it to Piccolo".
Gohan telling Piccolo about Freezer's condition is not a solid fact, is an assumption you make because you think it would be better. And you use that assumption to go against a proven solid fact like "the more injured a character is, the less energy he has left" even when it's pretty clearly stated that Freezer is affected by the injuries.

Then regarding your breakdown, I don't think Freezer's 2nd form had 1.000.000+ of power since the beginning. He said that "If any scoutter could read my strength it COULD surpass 1 million". That's like when he tells Nail his power was of 530.000, yet he wasn't using even a fraction of that.
Other than that, I pretty much agree with it up until that point:

Then this same Freeza has a rough even fight against base Goku (Goku didn't use Kaioken until his fight against non hands Freeza)

Goku used the KKx10 since the beginning (yes, that KK doesn't have an aura for dramatic reasons and that's bad writting -or drawing- for Toriyama's part, but your stance implies even worse writting since Goku activates and deactivates the KK in a nonsensical way and Freezer constantly notices that and also adapts the strength of his attacks to not kill Goku).

This might easily be a multifold gap. And yeah, Goku was just in base against non hands Freeza, as showed in the full colors:

Goku only had a Kaioken aura when fighting 50% Freeza:

This wasn't colored by Toriyama, so that coloration is as canon as any coloration any fan could do.
If Goku only activated the KKx10 against 50% Freezer, why did he just deactivate it just in the next page? Because once we assume that the KKx10 is only activated when the KK aura is supposedly drawn (that's a flying aura in my opinion) then that automatically means that it was deactivated when the KK aura wasn't drawn anymore, doesn't it?
And if 50% Freezer could hit him with enough strength to defeat him while in KKx10, why wasn't Goku insta-killed when he deactivated the KK?

If you look closely at those images and ignore the coloration, they're nearly the same. Goku flying towards Freezer with an aura. And in fact, if you go to the original source
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-118-index-2-page-10.html
you'll see that Goku has his eyes coloured in black while charging at 50% Freezer (well, the colored version has him with black eyes as well), which would be a drawing inconsistency because one of the traits of the KK is that Goku's eyes were always drawn as white circles. In fact, taking the original source, the first image you posted resembles more the KK than the second one (it still isn't a KK though):
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-117-index-2-page-5.html

These absorptions things are inconsistent: Babidi also thought Spopovich joined SSJ2's like energy just by absorbing it from hundred of people:

Babidi is an alien that knows nothing about earthlings. He assumes they're below his warriors, but other than that he knows nothing (the proof is that when PuiPui is beaten to a pulp by Vegeta he tells Dabra "how can earthlings have so much power"?). Yes, hundreds is a bit low but he lacks the knowledge so that can't be taken literally.
On the other hand, there is no reason to think that the reporter that provided the "hundreds of thousands of humans" was lying or didn't know what he was talking about, and the scoutter measurement of an adult man is also an objective metric.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Man, remember when trolls actually put effort into their trolling?

Now this just makes me feel like a fool.I though this guy was actually serious.He is trolling and i am giving serious answers

 

[freezamite]

Man, remember when trolls actually put effort into their trolling?

Now this just makes me feel like a fool.I though this guy was actually serious.He is trolling and i am giving serious answers

Are you saying this was a serious answer?

50% frieza is fodder to ssj goku who is fodder to 17 who is fodder to 16 who is fodder to semi cell.Yea,frieza does indeed stand a chance

dawg

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Even so, Goku preferred to use SSJ instead of KK from that point on. And he could
use 10x KK without any drawbacks.

There were drawbacks implied in the Cell saga like the heart disease that was connected to the KK (it would require a long explanation), and in fact it's directly implied that Goku had to use the KK against Mecha Freezer / Cold in the original timeline.

But in our timeline it didn't have much sense to use it. Goku knew that the SSJ had much more potential than the KK without having it's drawbacks (the SSJ generated a lot of stress to the body and he surely knew what that meant considering his speciality is precisely the high degree of control he has over his ki).
The androids weren't the killing machines Trunks described so there was no need to rush and kill them all with a KKx20 that would also harm him even more, and considering Goku's personality he preferred to develop his SSJ (a mastered SSJ transformation is much stronger than any KK ever displayed in the series) and test that fighting against Perfect Cell even if that meant putting the earth at risk.

Interesting theories. I like fresh views on the series and i want you to stay in the forum. Just be careful not to get carried away
and attract hatred which could lead to your ban, like it happened with the Tosh chick.
Tell me one last thing. Where was implied Goku had to use KK against Mecha Freeza?

 

[freezamite]

Even so, Goku preferred to use SSJ instead of KK from that point on. And he could
use 10x KK without any drawbacks.

There were drawbacks implied in the Cell saga like the heart disease that was connected to the KK (it would require a long explanation), and in fact it's directly implied that Goku had to use the KK against Mecha Freezer / Cold in the original timeline.

But in our timeline it didn't have much sense to use it. Goku knew that the SSJ had much more potential than the KK without having it's drawbacks (the SSJ generated a lot of stress to the body and he surely knew what that meant considering his speciality is precisely the high degree of control he has over his ki).
The androids weren't the killing machines Trunks described so there was no need to rush and kill them all with a KKx20 that would also harm him even more, and considering Goku's personality he preferred to develop his SSJ (a mastered SSJ transformation is much stronger than any KK ever displayed in the series) and test that fighting against Perfect Cell even if that meant putting the earth at risk.

Interesting theories. I like fresh views on the series and i want you to stay in the forum. Just be careful not to get carried away
and attract hatred which could lead to your ban, like it happened with the Toshit chick.
Tell me one last thing. Where was implied Goku had to use KK against Mecha Freeza?

Well, we know that in the original timeline Goku got ill far before than in the one we see in the series. That means that something Trunks changed affected Goku's illnes.
And then we have this:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-149-index-2-page-2.html

The SSJ put strain on a saiyan's body and that made Goku's situation to get much worse than it already was.
Now, regarding the illnes:
We know it's caused by a virus from the earth. We also know that it was a hard to detect illness that had no cure/medicine until the future and we also know that despite Goku having the virus it never affected the other Z-Warriors despite them being in contact with him regularly.

With all of that on mind my conclusion is the following:
The heart virus was so hard to detect because it only affected already weakened bodies that usually only old people or people in really bad nutritional conditions would have (this would explain why a virus so "deadly" would still be a mystery in the present, since the deaths caused by it probably were attributed to other factors because of that reason).
The KK was the most harming technique seen in the manga, and by a large margin. It forced Goku's body to a degree that wasn't normal so Goku having a weakened heart because of the use and abuse of KK is plausible.
Unlike Trunks, he wouldn't have killed Mecha Freezer / Cold without giving them the opportunity to fight. Mecha Freezer wasn't a problem, his power was that of his father transformed, so even Piccolo or Vegeta could take care of him.
But Cold is a different beast. In the present timeline Cold's biggest mistake was to think that Mecha Freezer was still above him, so once Trunks killed Mecha he abandoned all hope of winning a fight and he made his worst bet thinking that Trunks was so exceptional because of his sword.

But on the future that wouldn't have happened. Firstly, I can't imagine Goku killing Mecha without at least explaining him how weak he was compared to what he had been on Namek. That would change Cold's perception of the situation, and of course, he would try to fight and transform to his original and most powerful form (that was weaker than Freezer's).
Once at that form, he would prove to be more than a match for the SSJ, obliging Goku to use the KKx20, degrading his body even more, and becoming ill sooner than in the present.

Now, why do I say that he had to use the KK to fight Cold? Well, in the present TL Trunks warned him about the androids, and he spent years training with Piccolo as a SSJ. So the years after Cold's arrival had to be far more stressful to his body in the present than what he did in the future (he obviously trained, but without knowing about the android menace it's obvious he would have lived a more relaxing life).
So if we assume Goku had enough power as a SSJ to overcome Cold then there's no apparent reason as to why his illness affected him faster in the future since he surely turned into a SSJ dozens of times more in the present than he did in the future (he had to prepare for the androids, now).

But since we know that Cold was able to fight against a restrained Freezer (Freezer told that to Goku in Namek), and the untrained SSJ was like 25% Freezer more or less, Cold being clearly below Freezer but still above a SSJ is a solid possibility that would explain that change in the timeline.

So, to summarise:
We know something made Goku to get ill sooner in the original TL. We also know that putting stress in the body accelerates the illness, and that Goku had been training in the present TL with Piccolo as a SSJ to prepare for the androids. Something in the future TL caused him such a big stress that accelerated the illness even more than turning into a SSJ, and that we know, there's only one thing that could stress Goku's body more than the SSJ and that's the KK.

 

[Tapion]

The Full Color manga was approved by Toriyama and it was published by the same staff that published the original, non-colored version of the manga. Stop ignoring canon.

 

[freezamite]

The Full Color manga was approved by Toriyama and it was published by the same staff that published the original, non-colored version of the manga. Stop ignoring canon.

The Daizenshuu guides were approved by Toriyama, heck even DBS may have been "approved" by Toriyama. What matters is that those pages weren't colored by Toriyama, and it's obvious that Toriyama didn't go vignette by vignette checking if everything had the color he envisioned the series with.

The only canon is what the author drew himself, period. Not Dragon Ball Super, not your favourite filler chapter nor what is written in a guide that obviously didn't make Toriyama. That doesn't mean a guide can't be useful, but when the guide contradicts the original source then it's obvious what's canon and what's not canon, and obviously the coloured manga isn't canon in the parts it contradicts the original source.

 

[Tapion]

The Full Color manga was approved by Toriyama and it was published by the same staff that published the original, non-colored version of the manga. Stop ignoring canon.

The Daizenshuu guides were approved by Toriyama, heck even DBS may have been "approved" by Toriyama. What matters is that those pages weren't colored by Toriyama, and it's obvious that Toriyama didn't go vignette by vignette checking if everything had the color he envisioned the series with.

The only canon is what the author drew himself, period. Not Dragon Ball Super, not your favourite filler chapter nor what is written in a guide that obviously didn't make Toriyama. That doesn't mean a guide can't be useful, but when the guide contradicts the original source then it's obvious what's canon and what's not canon, and obviously the coloured manga isn't canon in the parts it contradicts the original source.

I didn't know that your opinion mattered more than the opinion of the guy who created Dragon Ball & his staff.

 

[freezamite]

The Full Color manga was approved by Toriyama and it was published by the same staff that published the original, non-colored version of the manga. Stop ignoring canon.

The Daizenshuu guides were approved by Toriyama, heck even DBS may have been "approved" by Toriyama. What matters is that those pages weren't colored by Toriyama, and it's obvious that Toriyama didn't go vignette by vignette checking if everything had the color he envisioned the series with.

The only canon is what the author drew himself, period. Not Dragon Ball Super, not your favourite filler chapter nor what is written in a guide that obviously didn't make Toriyama. That doesn't mean a guide can't be useful, but when the guide contradicts the original source then it's obvious what's canon and what's not canon, and obviously the coloured manga isn't canon in the parts it contradicts the original source.

I didn't know that your opinion mattered more than the opinion of the guy who created Dragon Ball & his staff.

In fact the guy that created Dragon Ball is the one that put the SSJ at 1/4th of Freezer's strength in an interview. But as I've said, the one that colored those pages wasn't Toriyama nor anyone of his staff (he only had 1 co-worker helping him).

Now the matter here is: Toriyama always drew the KK with white eyes. Furthermore, in the context of the scene it would be bad writing by Toriyama if he really activated the KK for a single vignette while Freezer was always fighting at 50% the whole time, so in the end, the one defending the author's stance here it's me.
There is not a single instance of the KK being drawn with black eyes which means that this aura was a flying aura and not a KK aura and the one that got it wrong was the one that coloured that page, not Toriyama.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

There is not a single instance of the KK being drawn with black eyes

There's your single instance. Goku never used Kaio-Ken before Freeza went to 50%. When Freeza said he was hiding a lot of power, Goku admitted that Freeza figured him out. He can't sense Chi, but like Ginyu, he could tell Goku wasn't utilizing all of his power. So the color portion of that chapter is fine.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

@freezamite Who's stronger between 100% Freeza and Mecha Freeza?

 

[freezamite]

There is not a single instance of the KK being drawn with black eyes

There's your single instance. Goku never used Kaio-Ken before Freeza went to 50%. When Freeza said he was hiding a lot of power, Goku admitted that Freeza figured him out. He can't sense Chi, but like Ginyu, he could tell Goku wasn't utilizing all of his power. So the color portion of that chapter is fine.

The eyes in those images are clearly empty on the inside. Yes, if you reduce the image it seems they're black, but you can still clearly see white dots inside the pupilles which indicates this is a KK:

You can't expect Toriyama to draw the puppils with an atomic precision so they look exactly the same in every single drawing he makes, but if inside Goku's pupilles there's white dots that mean that he wanted them to be empty on the inside.
Now let's compare this with your nonsensical KK activation:

Not even a single white dot inside the pupilles. Those are clearly black eyes, unlike the image you posted.

But look, this is not only about the white eyes, it's about having the tinniest bit of COMMON SENSE. If Goku activated the KK after Freezer went 50%, then that means that here:

or here:

Goku deactivated it. That's absolutely nonsensical no matter how you look at it. Firstly, that's absolutely retarded for Goku's part: So he sees the KKx10 isn't enough to fight against Freezer and he... decides to fight without any KK at all? Can't you even see there's something very wrong in this?
Why would Goku regress to his normal base state if even the KKx10 wasn't enough to match Freezer's strength?

Even not taking into account that you've blatantly lied in order to try to prove your nonsensical point, it still doesn't make even the slightest sense!

When Freeza said he was hiding a lot of power, Goku admitted that Freeza figured him out. He can't sense Chi, but like Ginyu, he could tell Goku wasn't utilizing all of his power. So the color portion of that chapter is fine.

Goku could go as far as to use KKx20. So if he was only using te KKx10 he still had plenty of KK levels (x11, x12...) to increase his fighting capabilities. Look, not only have you blatantly lied about something posting a small size image to give the wrong impression and manipulate the truth, in top of that you simply jump into conclusions to try to demonstrate that the most nonsensical interpretation of the manga is the only good one.

Who's stronger between 100% Freeza and Mecha Freeza?

100% Freeza without any doubt. Even after being serverely injured by the Genkidama and SSJ Goku he still was able to fight SSJ Goku in equal terms, while Mecha was completely trashed by Trunks (who had the same strength as Goku SSJ in Namek).
Mecha Freezer had 1.000.000 units of strength more or less, he was at the same level (maybe only a bit above) than his father transformed to reduce his strength (and Cold was already weaker than his son, so...).

 

[freezamite]

double post

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

100% Freeza without any doubt. Even after being serverely injured by the Genkidama and SSJ Goku he still was able to fight SSJ Goku in equal terms, while Mecha was completely trashed by Trunks (who had the same strength as Goku SSJ in Namek).
Mecha Freezer had 1.000.000 units of strength more or less, he was at the same level (maybe only a bit above) than his father transformed to reduce his strength (and Cold was already weaker than his son, so...).

Freeza said he powered up and stronger than he was on Namek so that should tell you the obvious.

 

[Pocket-God]

 

[SSJ2]

@Pocket-God is that a real life picture of you? Hot.

 

[freezamite]

100% Freeza without any doubt. Even after being serverely injured by the Genkidama and SSJ Goku he still was able to fight SSJ Goku in equal terms, while Mecha was completely trashed by Trunks (who had the same strength as Goku SSJ in Namek).
Mecha Freezer had 1.000.000 units of strength more or less, he was at the same level (maybe only a bit above) than his father transformed to reduce his strength (and Cold was already weaker than his son, so...).

Freeza said he powered up and stronger than he was on Namek so that should tell you the obvious.

Yes we already commented on that. Freezer said he was stronger but he was clearly mistaken.
First, let's analyse the facts:
1. He was fodder to someone with the same strength than Goku SSJ in Namek (someone that he could fight at his same level while badly injured).
2. When Gohan senses his power, he says that this was nothing compared to what he displayed in Namek. It could be taken as Gohan's opinion but if that wasn't true then Piccolo, Krilin or Vegeta would've said something and they didn't.
3. His speed wasn't much higher than the one of his father while transformed, and his father was already weaker than him.
4. Freezer says he has powered up, and that he is much more powerful than his father.

Considering that we have other examples of characters being mistaken about their powers due to sudden changes in the plot, we have two options here:
1. Assume that Gohan, Goku and Trunks all lied to us because of reasons. Gohan regarding Trunks' power and Goku regarding him having not trained that much in the year he spent after Namek.

2. Assume that Mecha Freezer believed he was stronger based on factors he could perceive like being able to use all his power without forcing his body, but being mistaken about him really having more strength (the only way Freezer would have to check his strength would be a sparring session with his father, which he obviously didn't do).

I stick with the second option considering the precedents we see in the manga and because I don't think there's a single reason for Gohan, Trunks and Goku to lie on that.