ahill1 said:
What weird way? He just said Cell is above Freeza, nothing more nothing less.
Because ignoring the androids has no sense if Ginger Town Cell was already above Freezer. And I insist, Ginger Town Cell was never the problem (in fact it was the solution had they found him), it always was a potential perfect Cell.
On the other hand, you're spinning a concrete translation of the manga, on the one I have Krilin says:
"Tell me Goku, now that we have an enemy stronger than Freezer, are you afraid or happy?"
In that translation it's even more obvious to what they're referring exactly.
ahill1 said:
Kuririn has also questioned whether these androids are bad or not and later had to tell Trunks that the present ones aren't as bad as the future ones. When he finally thought that the androids started the killings, he was it was actually Cell.
It doesn't surprise me if he were only considering Cell as the real enemy.
At that point of the series the androids were still searching Goku to kill him, and Krilin had already moved Goku from his house to KamiHouse in order to protect him.
To say he didn't think of the androids as enemies is too much of a stretch.
ahill1 said:
Kuririn not mentioning the androids isn't a justification for disregard Cell > Freeza, much less androids > Freeza, the same way Freeza mentioning how Goku is above Ginyu and how impressed he was by that isn't a justification to disregard Picc/Veggie > Ginyu. Why? Because that was flat out shown. Unless you want to turn AT in the baddest writer ever.
Well, Akira Toriyama is already the worst writer ever if:
1. Freezer didn't lose strength with the Genkidama despite stating it and being a basic rule of the manga.
2. The androids weren't serious against Vegeta despite stating the opposite.
3. Mecha Freezer not being weaker than in Namek despite Gohan noticing a much weaker ki coming from him and him being trashed by someone with Namek Goku SSJ's power.
4. Cell's absorptions going from "adding the strength of other beings to mine" to "multiplying the absorbed strength by thousands except when it's Piccolo's arm".
5. "50x was too much of an increase, it was 10x20".
So saying that after all of this AT could be any good as a writer is not a good statement to make.
What I'm saying is obvious, Krilin didn't ask for an enemy they were looking because they could take care of it (why would Goku be afraid or excited about something that was weak enough to be killed by Piccolo without any problems) and AT isn't such a bad writer (he would be a bad writer if he really made Krilin ask about Ginger Town Cell).
ahill1 said:
I'm surprised how you think Raditz being at 1,500 and Nappa being at 4,000 are flat out wrong, yet suggest things like 50% Freeza > Goku SSJ.
Because Raditz at 1500 would break the rules of the manga. Nappa at 4000 would also do that, while 50% Freezer > Goku SSJ is perfectly fine. The only way it's not fine is if we break the rule of loosing energy when getting injured, but since AT himself stated that SSJ Goku was at KKx10 levels of power more or less, that rule wasn't broken by the manga, only by the ones that want to put Goku SSJ above Freezer.
ahill1 said:
They aren't contradicted. You just don't want to accept them because... whatever reason. Kami also stated that even the man who took down Freeza and his dad in seconds [Trunks] was no match for these androids.
Yes, they're contradicted and purely based on contradictions. The sole fact that Freezer has to ignore the Genkidama injuries is a really big contradiction by itself that breaks the fight and the coherency of the series in multiple ways.
And why would Kami know anything about Freezer's power in Namek when even Yamcha, who was following the fight, didn't know anything?
Trunks killed mecha and Cold, we all saw that, but to insinuate that Toriyama put those words into Kami's mouth referring to Namek Freezer is also bad writing for his part.
ahill1 said:
Can you even make sense of that statement arguing 50% Freeza would destroy these androids in a similar fashion Semi Cell did with an android capable of tanking an amplified blast from someone on par with #17?
Of course I can make sense of that, he was speaking of Mecha and Cold, Kami didn't know anything about Freezer's real power. In fact, the only ones that say the androids were stronger than Freezer are all the ones that never went to Namek. And the only time someone that went to Namek said anything about an enemy being stronger than Freezer, he left the Androids out of the equation.
Now, you can say that Krilin didn't consider the ones that were trying to kill goku as enemies, but I don't think that's reasonable.
ahill1 said:
>Mecha Freeza said he powered up, yet was an ant compared to his 50% organic self
Mecha Freeza said he was stronger than Cold, yet was just as strong as Cold transformed. Yes, it was obvious Mecha Freezer had a wrong understanding of his new power as a robot, stated by Gohan himself.
Vegeta also had a wrong impression regarding his own strength after the Zenkay power in Namek, and Perfect Cell didn't know how strong he really was either because he thought he could beat SSJ2 Gohan after sensing his power.
On the other hand, bad writing would be:
> Mecha Freezer was stronger than 100% Freezer, yet was an ant compared to someone with Namek Goku SSJ power who Freezer could fight while being injured in equal terms.
ahill1 said:
>Goku waited Freeza to go 100% because he wanted to fight this guy at his absolute best, even though he only achieved fighting this guy with 25% of his power
Goku waited Freezer to go 100% because he didn't want to kill Freezer before he had the opportunity to fight with all the strength he had. He never had any intention of healing Freezer nor healing Freezer would make any sense in the context of the fight.
Again, you're mistaking 100% of what Freezer had with 100% of what Freezer could potentially have not realising that your stance contradicts every single fight drawn in the manga, including the one between Freezer and Goku.
ahill1 said:
>Goku agreed that he wasn't fighting with all his might, even though he was already using the 10-fold Kaioken through all the fight
Which is perfectly logic considering he could go as far as the KKx20, meaning that he was still using only half of his maximum achievable power.
On the other hand:
>Freezer can suddenly anticipate 10x increases in energy but later he isn't even able to anticipate a 2x increase.
>KKx10 Goku is hurt after receiving Freezer's kick, but base Goku without KK can still resist 50% Freezer's hits.
>After losing against Freezer with the KKx10, Goku deactivates it because...
My explanations on what you say are at least logical. But how can you explain Freezer not loosing any strength on the Genkidama when he actually states that he had lost a lot of strength?
How can you explain Cell's absorptions working different on Piccolo than on the humans?
Trunks SSJ with the same power of Goku in Namek trashing someone stronger than 100% Freezer?
Both Freezer and Cold speaking as if Freezer was the strongest, while Mecha Freezer was just marginally stronger than transformed Cold?
Believe me, the manga is much, much worse when we take your interpretations. My stance can be justified even if you would write something in a different way, on the other hand, your stance requires the manga to contradict itself in dozens of places at the very least.
HUEBR_Tapion said:
You're reaching beyond limits now. Krillin doesn't know and can't know how strong the non-existent "Perfect" Cell is.
Krilin maybe couldn't know how terrible the non-existent "Perfect" Cell is, but as long as he wasn't retarded he could perfectly know that a warrior made of the best parts of Freezer, Cold, Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku could be stronger than Freezer.
Every single time they speak of Cell as a menace, they speak about a potential Perfect Cell, never about Ginger Town Cell who was in fact the one they were pursuing because it was the easier option (easier than the androids).
HUEBR_Tapion said:
He is speaking in the present tense:
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”
Not on the future tense.
That's looking too far into a concrete translation. As I've already said, there are other translations with a different wording on the sentence that go perfectly with my take on the question, and even in English, if he's speaking in a general sense the use of the present time is also correct.
HUEBR_Tapion said:
When Piccolo said, he didn't know anything about Cell.
Exactly. He didn't know anything about Cell and he thought he wasn't a menace. Only after he learned about his origins he thought of Cell as a terrible enemy.
HUEBR_Tapion said:
To him, Cell would be nothing. But to weaklings like Krillin and Trunks, Cell would be a nightmare.
I don't think he would be that much of a menace to Trunks (I'm still not convinced he was above SSJ Vegeta considering how the fight against #18 went) but even if he was, why would Goku be afraid of Ginger Town Cell? He was going to God's palace and Cell was a weakling compared to Piccolo, why would he be afraid and excited about that?
Excited? Maybe, but afraid? They were only afraid of Cell becoming much stronger...
HUEBR_Tapion said:
Vegeta even calls Ginger Cell's power "absurdly large" and considering Vegeta>Goku, Krillin would be right about Goku being scared to fight Cell.
Yes, Cell's power was huge as I've said, at least SSJ levels of huge. But why would Goku be scared of something that Piccolo could erase as if it was nothing?
The menace wasn't Cell at Ginger Town, it was Cell as a complete being:
DBZ 171:
Ten: "We must thwart its fusion with nos 17 and 18, or else..."
Piccolo: "Not just earth, but all the planets in the galaxy will be in danger. Don't forget that it has Freeza's blood too!"
That's not Ginger Town Cell they're speaking about, it's a potential Perfect Cell that scared them.
HUEBR_Tapion said:
She was lying. She later says Vegeta was helpless against her.
Was #17 also lying? And why would she lie? I mean, what would be the point in lying about her going all out and then saying this to Vegeta:
DBZ 159:
-#18: "Is Son Goku even stronger than you?"
- Vegeta: No.
-#18: "Then I don't have to worry about any of you"
So we go from an #18 that lies about going all out to play with Vegeta to an #18 that says that Vegeta isn't something she has to worry about, all without ever saying to him anything like "I've been lying to you, I was using only a fraction of my power!".
Vegeta was helpless against her because she was as strong as him and also had the plus of the unlimited energy. What could Vegeta possibly do against her?
If Freezer got too weakened to fight SSJ Goku in a matter of a few minutes because of his inability to resist using his 100% for a long period of time, of course Vegeta wasn't a menace to #18 with her having unlimited energy. Freezer could at least hope to hurt Goku enough to lower his power and compensate for his own power decreasing. Vegeta couldn't do that.
Out of 100 fights they could have, not even 1 could've been won by that Vegeta, not even if he somehow managed to catch #18 with a good hit.
Having unlimited energy is a huge advantage, not a small one.
Until tomorrow!
