Moro vs SSJ Gotenks (Pre ROSAT)

[Pyro]

Who are we to say that? Why couldn't South Kaioshin have always been the strongest?

Because of status, I think.

I don't think so.

 

[GSM123]

I can live with that.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

East Kaioshin stated South Kaioshin was the strongest, which is supported by the Daizenshuu, so if we use this logic, wouldn't South Kaioshin have been far more powerful in the past too? He would need to be above Dai Kaioshin's best.

As Tapion said, it may not have always been the case. We know Shin was the youngest Kaioshin, so he may not have even been born around this time.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I agree with Tapion and CC, it just makes sense for Daioh to be the strongest especially that the 4 Kaioshins are probably in training since none of then were appointed as "the" Kaioshin of U7. Just a speculation in my part.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Not just that but given his rank, it'd make sense for Prime Dai Kaioshin's superiority to the other 4 to be comparable to that between the Dai Kaio and the 4 Kaios, though how much that is if ignoring anime material that would even imply Dai Kaio >> Shin is pretty speculative.

In any case, it would make sense for Dai Kaioshin at his peak to not be complete to the Hakaishin, given the Hakaishin being light years above their counterparts' power made the Kaioshin even more of a joke than the Boo Arc already did.

 

[Pyro]

Eh, I'm not on board with this. I'm gonna keep South Kaioshin the strongest for now until we learn more about this whole story.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Dai Kaioshin failed to free the Z sword, and a Ssj Gohan prior releasing his potential freed it. So South Kaioshin being superior to Dai Kaioshin holds firm until they retcon it later on.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Dai Kaioshin failed to free the Z sword, and a Ssj Gohan prior releasing his potential freed it.

Not only is there no solid evidence Dai Kaioshin even tried to pull out the Z-Sword, but the evidence of it meaning SSJ Gohan > Kaioshins is dubious. Beerus would be incompetent if his seal could be broken if a Kaioshin of great enough strength showed up whereas a mortal would be a non-factor. Whilst video games aren't worth much, Shin Budokai 2 supports the stance that it had less to do with power and more to do with the potential of the fighter, as well as them being a mortal.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Dai Kaioshin failed to free the Z sword, and a Ssj Gohan prior releasing his potential freed it.

Not only is there no solid evidence Dai Kaioshin even tried to pull out the Z-Sword, but the evidence of it meaning SSJ Gohan > Kaioshins is dubious. Beerus would be incompetent if his seal could be broken if a Kaioshin of great enough strength showed up whereas a mortal would be a non-factor. Whilst video games aren't worth much, Shin Budokai 2 supports the stance that it had less to do with power and more to do with the potential of the fighter, as well as them being a mortal.

Kibito clearly says that previous Kaioshin's failed to pull so it would be nothing but pure assumption to claim that he didn't try so that's just a try hard. Pulling the Z sword is clearly related to power because Kaioshin realized that Gohan could pull it after seeing his power against Buu and that's all. He also couldn't pull it in base form. If it was potential based, It wouldn't have mattered.

Therefore, saying that Dai Kaioshin is anywhere above that Gohan would be an assumption until it gets retconned in the DBS Manga (which probably will happen but for now we can't just assume that). Therefore Gohan > Dai Kaioshin currently stands.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

The Z sword was part of a legend that whoever holds it will have unrivalled power. Yet Dai Kaioshin was going to face Moro, wouldn't it sound retarded for him not to try getting this sword if he can in order to defeat Moro anyway possible?

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito“A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that a human or the like would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P12.5
Context: after Kaioshin brings Gohan to the Z Sword
Kaioshin: “Please pull it out. As far as I know, nobody has ever managed to pull this sword out.”

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P4.6-7, P7.1
Context: after the Z Sword breaks on the Katchin Steel
Kaioshin: “Th-th-this can’t be…Th-the Z Sword…”
Kibito: “The str-strongest of swords…”
Goku: “Hey, this is ‘cause you told us to test it out on something so hard…”
Kaioshin: “B-but it’s said that whoever holds it has the greatest power in the world…”

So saying Dai Kaioshin didn't try would just make absolutely no sense.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Pulling the Z sword is clearly related to power because Kaioshin realized that Gohan could pull it after seeing his power against Buu and that's all.

Shin is notorious for being inexperienced in his position, so his opinion is not necessarily fact.

He also couldn't pull it in base form. If it was potential based, It wouldn't have mattered.

Well, I'm not saying it's entirely potential based. Some strength is required to actually move it as shown with Goku having trouble holding it in base and Kibito not being able to do anything. However, it could still require the right person since as I said, it would make little sense for Beerus to place a seal that a Kaioshin with enough strength could remove, especially when we've been shown a Kaioshin candidate who surpassed SSJ Gohan by leaps and bounds in another universe.

Therefore, saying that Dai Kaioshin is anywhere above that Gohan would be an assumption until it gets retconned in the DBS Manga (which probably will happen but for now we can't just assume that). Therefore Gohan > Dai Kaioshin currently stands.

His feats against Moro are enough for that, unless you believe Moro surpassed Merus in whilst in a high security prison.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Shin is notorious for being inexperienced in his position, so his opinion is not necessarily fact.

Then you'll have to prove that he's anywhere wrong in this specific instance because nothing states he was wrong. At least his observations are better than our assumptions. The times he gets things wrong are usually shown to us, yet this was still never shown. So again, we'll have to wait for the DBS Manga to retcon, otherwise it stands firm.

Well, I'm not saying it's entirely potential based. Some strength is required to actually move it as shown with Goku having trouble holding it in base and Kibito not being able to do anything. However, it could still require the right person since as I said, it would make little sense for Beerus to place a seal that a Kaioshin with enough strength could remove, especially when we've been shown a Kaioshin candidate who surpassed SSJ Gohan by leaps and bounds in another universe.

But the seal Beerus placed was powerful. Sure, it's weaker than Prior Potential Gohan, but compared to the Kaioshins it was magical. Throughout 75 million years, every single Kaioshin failed to remove the seal. And why would Beerus assume that a Mortal would stand on the Kaioshin realm in the first place? He was shocked that Goku was on King Kai's planet, so Kaioshin realm would be a very far stretch. As for Zamasu, he was named a prodigy and it wasn't a thing that a Kaioshin can be this powerful. Old Kai himself was shocked that a mortal could free the sword and Beerus thought no mortal is stronger than Frieza at the start of DBS, so Beerus was only minding his own universe. Goku himself admitted to Zamasu that all the Kaioshins in his Universe are nothing compared to a mere Kai, Zamasu, from Universe 11 which would certainly mean Zamasu was just "special". Therefore, the idea that a Kaioshin could get "this" powerful was a nonfactor.

His feats against Moro are enough for that, unless you believe Moro surpassed Merus in whilst in a high security prison.

As soon as Moro escaped when he regained his Magic, he could have simply got stronger, so it's easily plausible that he ended up surpassing Merus at that point. As for Moro getting stronger as an abductee, there's no reason not believe he could get stronger while getting his magic back. The way he was getting his magic back was never explained so if it was gradual, then that's a different story. In order to judge our choices properly, let's wait till the next chapter to receive any confirmation. Currently there's just not enough to base our conclusions so currently I'm sticking to my premise above.