My position about the Base Kids power

[Goku9001]

Also "always assume full power" is a very extreme rule. Fighters seldom start all out and often, they often prefer to test the waters first, save stamina, and in the Budokais everyone always holds back. They make a big deal when they're starting all out from the start.

Sure 18 wants the prize, but she's in no hurry. She toyed with Vegeta. What's the hurry with MM? The boys aren't really pressuring her.

She acknowledged Mighty Mask as strong from the onset and immediately battled him with a firm stance. Nothing supports her holding back in that sequence. With Vegeta, it's obvious she was just joking around with him.

As for the thread, I stick with the Daizenshuu. The boys are on par with Android 18 which is essentially what we see. Trunks performs well despite being inhibited by his lack of mobility within the costume but still showed concern about being slammed by a generic ki blast from Android 18. Only Super Saiyan was shown to be significantly above Android 18.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So 18 had a off screen character development and doesn’t play around anymore. Got it.

When I see the fight all I see is Mighty Mask getting trashed around and 18 being confident on fighting the SSJ Boys before seeing their power. Trunks isn’t injured sure, but he didn’t land a single finger on 18. Getting effortlessly smacked around doesn’t exactly scream “rivals”.

It's not an extreme rule because of exactly that. Assume it, and provide the abundant evidence that it's not true. That's the author's traits. He will explicitly tell you when they are not at full power, so no reason to assume otherwise.

On 100% of 18’s fights before this, she held back and toyed with her opponent. There’s the abundant evidence. 18 being desperate because her family is poor - that’s headcanon.

She acknowledged Mighty Mask as strong from the onset and immediately battled him with a firm stance. Nothing supports her holding back in that sequence. With Vegeta, it's obvious she was just joking around with him.

Not really obvious since a lot of people get confused. Yeah Trunks is strong, 18 can’t one shot him (at least not casually), but being equal to or above 18 it a whole different game.

 

[Yoshi]

If the Daizenshuu says the Base Boys are equal to #18, that settles it for me personally.

 

[FeatsofPower]

When I see the fight all I see is Mighty Mask getting trashed around and 18 being confident on fighting the SSJ Boys before seeing their power. Trunks isn’t injured sure, but he didn’t land a single finger on 18. Getting effortlessly smacked around doesn’t exactly scream “rivals”.

Ok so you have the boys more than 10x weaker than the adults then? If they aren’t ecen close to 18 where do you place them Freeza level?

 

[FeatsofPower]

On 100% of 18’s fights before this, she held back and toyed with her opponent. There’s the abundant evidence. 18 being desperate because her family is poor - that’s headcanon.

She didnt hold back on the human she Ko’d right before she fought Mjghty Mask how come she didn’t play around then since she’s always playing around? She immediately went for the kill on Hercule too. So what are we saying? Where is this whole feeling out process you speak of where she toys with people for minutes on end?

 

[Kyo]

The "always assume full power" rule in Dragon Ball debating predates all of us including p himself, it's basically just a spin on burden of proof. You have no reason to believe shit that wasn't conveyed in the text.

On 100% of 18’s fights before this, she held back and toyed with her opponent. There’s the abundant evidence.

1. That is not even close to true
2. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I think 18 was using her full power against the boys

For me is more a possibility than a fact, however, I am not of the opinion that 18 was holding back, but it doesn't exist actual evidence for either side.

But I do think the boys were a little bit stronger. Remember, for Trunks to be doing this well, he certainly isn't any weaker, Trunks isn't getting beat up as badly as Vegeta was, and 18 held back against Vegeta.

They only traded blows for a little while and then she had no trouble broking their defenses and throwing him into the floor, which lefts Trunks only option going to SSJ. 18 agreed to not hold back against Vegeta, but I think she only used her full effort for a little time.

18 (vs Mighty Mask) > 18 (vs Vegeta)

There's no evidence suggesting this. But, if anything, are you saying that 18 got magically stronger?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

As for the Daizenshuu, I don't think that's evidence good enough to say that 18 wasn't holding back or to make definitive the claim of them being equals.

SSJ3 Goku is said to be capable of figthing evenly with Fat Buu despite of having held back against him. Everyone can think what they wants though.

Spoiler

 

[FeatsofPower]

They only traded blows for a little while and then she had no trouble broking their defenses and throwing him into the floor, which lefts Trunks only option going to SSJ. 18 agreed to not hold back against Vegeta, but I think she only used her full effort for a little time.

How come 18 didn’t one shot him?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

How come 18 didn’t one shot him?

How come Vegeta was able to withstand on his feet for too many time and why she and 17 let them all (Trunks, Piccolo and Tenshinhan) escape? As well as bring time to give Krillin the senzu?

 

[Pyro]

The Daizenshuu contradicts itself (unintentionally, I'm sure), does it not?

It states Goten isn't the least bit inferior to Gohan (obviously excluding Super Saiyan 2). It also states Trunks is capable of fighting on par with Android 18. How could both positions be true simultaneously if:

Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan >?> Yakon > Yeast Kaioshin > Piccolo > Android 17 > Android 18

Even if you didn't want to include Kaioshin and Yak, the problem would remain with Piccolo being weaker than the Base adult Saiyans. The only way to make both entries work is if Gohan, too, was on par with Android 18, which would make him much weaker than Piccolo and company.

 

[FeatsofPower]

How come Vegeta was able to withstand on his feet for too many time and why she and 17 let them all (Trunks, Piccolo and Tenshinhan) escape? As well as bring time to give Krillin the senzu?

Because they stated that they didn’t want to kill them and they wanted to have some fun just like the narrative entails. The exact opposite of what she’s doing at the tournament.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If they aren’t ecen close to 18

Never said that.

She didnt hold back on the human she Ko’d right before she fought Mjghty Mask

Of course she did. He’d be jelly if she didn’t.

The exact opposite of what she’s doing at the tournament.

She’s not trying to kill people in the tournament dude.

You have no reason to believe shit that wasn't conveyed in the text.

What’s conveyed in the text is that 18 can’t kill anyone, that she (wrongly) thinks can handle the SSJ Boys and the fight shows her having a rather easy time against the boys.

It’s what I said on page 1, characters testing the waters before going all out having on every fight and it’s often stated when they go all out from the start.

1. That is not even close to true

So Vegeta = 18?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Of course she did. He’d be jelly if she didn’t.

Holding back as in not KOing. Her intent is to KO everyone. If she’s not, there needs to be a specific reason for it.

With Hercule, she wants to convince him that she will take a dive for double the prize money so she holds back from insta-KO.

Everyone in her path gets insta-KO’d. Her intent is to win the tournament immediately, she’s in it for the money and is playing zero games. Krillen even tells her to make sure she doesn’t kill anyone.

Why did 18 not instantly KO Mighty Mask?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Holding back as in not KOing. Her intent is to KO everyone. If she’s not, there needs to be a specific reason for it.

With Hercule, she wants to convince him that she will take a dive for double the prize money so she holds back from insta-KO.

Everyone in her path gets insta-KO’d. Her intent is to win the tournament immediately, she’s in it for the money and is playing zero games. Krillen even tells her to make sure she doesn’t kill anyone.

Why did 18 not instantly KO Mighty Mask?

Because she can’t. Trunks isn’t one shot fodder. I’m just saying that not being one shot doesn’t mean Trunks = 18.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Because they stated that they didn’t want to kill them and they wanted to have some fun just like the narrative entails. The exact opposite of what she’s doing at the tournament.

She is also having fun in the tournament fighting Mighty Mask. I don't see that much difference in between her Android arc self and her Buu saga self.

Spoiler

18 has the tendency to let her opponents keep up with her (like Vegeta, Mighty Mask or Krillin in Super) just to at the end, prove to be nothing in front of her. So the strict demeanor you and others are trying to give her is unsupported by the narrative itself.

Her demeanor only changes when she realizes that she is in trouble after they fire that blast.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Pyro

The Gohan = Goten entry and the Kid Trunks = 18 are the most contradictive entries of the Daizenshuu.

Realistically, Goten and Trunks even Post Rosat in base doesn't reach Gohan's rusty level as they are weaker than Piccolo, whom is weaker than Base Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think it's fair to say 18 was going all out because she one shot that normal guy. She could be at 0.00000001% and she'd still breathe him away. Mighty Mask is well over half of her power, probably 75-80%.

This kind of logic is like saying she was going all out dead serious vs Vegeta because she one shot Trunks.

2. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/

 

[FeatsofPower]

Because she can’t. Trunks isn’t one shot fodder. I’m just saying that not being one shot doesn’t mean Trunks = 18.

Exactly, so Trunks is so strong that he can't be one shot. That means he's ridiculously strong, right? I mean, he's above 80% of her power at bare minimum. And that would be if he was fighting at equal footing, he's on someone's shoulders!

He can see her punches. Goku was having a hard time seeing Cell's movements. So the gap is closer than that.

So I don't know why you are arguing against equals when it's already that tight. What gap do you have?

 

[FeatsofPower]

I don't think it's fair to say 18 was going all out because she one shot that normal guy. She could be at 0.00000001% and she'd still breathe him away. Mighty Mask is well over half of her power, probably 75-80%.

How come she didn't easily overpower Trunks then? Why did she have to use an evasive maneuver? She should have just increased her speed and overwhelmed him. She did not because she COULD NOT. Nothing indicates she could have significantly shown more power than she previously showed.