Nappa Saga

[FeatsofPower]

Nappa Saga



Saibamen 1,200

Chaozu 1,250

Yamcha 1,350

Krillen 1,500

Tien 1,600

Piccolo 2,000

Tien’s Kikoho 2,400

Enraged Gohan 2,520

Masenko 2,800

Nappa 3,000





I think I perfectly figured out Masenko. It's a standard 1.111111x boost like all fighters get in universe. I think Nappa's Mouth Blast, Zarbon's Elegant Blaster, Jeice's blast and so on, probably all use this amp.

Ki amp logic is no joke, but I think I'm starting to make some progress here.

This works out good for the Namek Masenko against Freeza as well...


Freeza 3rd Form 2,500,000
Masenko 2,500,000
Gohan 2,250,000

Also a 1.11111x blast. Zarbon's blast vs Vegeta has to be not much more than this as well. It's starting to make some sense.

I would like to make Piccolo stronger, like 2,250 or so, but I'm limited severely by Masenko. Masenko is 2,800. If Enraged Gohan was a 2,800, that would be fine, but with Masenko being 2,800 we have to work backwards.

All in all, I'm learning ki amps are absolute trash.

If I make Kikoho stronger than Masenko, we start to run into all sorts of issues as well.

In the anime dub, Yamcha said he had trouble keeping up with Chaozu on Snake Way. I think I'll have to see what the sub says.

It's possible I'm underrating Chaozu here. Do you think Chaozu is closer to Yamcha than we think?

EDIT: Ok bumped up Chaozu to Raditz level.


Where do we place regular Gohan? The one who can't keep up with the Saibamen? We know he's at least over 1,000. But how much over 1,000? Can Gohan suppress his power at this point?

 

[Animelover5487]

I think Gohan is at 1307 since the training was for Gohan to control his hidden power.

Nappa is at 4000. Compare Nappa's block of the Masenko to Raditz's block of the KHH, the former can punch the blast away while the latter had to run away, brace himself and still struggled a bit to block it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm not sure if Nappa, Zarbon, Jeice etc can amp at all. Raditz and Vegeta treat it as a totally alien concept when they see it. Vegeta gets a pass since the Garlic Gun has an actual feat, but even then it's possible Goku was just fatigued.

I'm sure Gohan can suppress his power. Vegeta tells Nappa to ditch his scouter because they all can suppress. 1,307 is a cool number as Animelover says, plus 2520/1307 is pretty similar to 1307/710.

Did Yamcha really struggle with Chaozu in the sub? Not sure if they have to be that close, this is a traveling speed feat. 1000 to 1350 is small enough for that. Also, you're already on the Namek Saga on the anime?

Spoiler

Saibamen: 1,200

Chaozu: 1,000
Gohan: 1,307
Yamcha: 1,350
Kuririn: 1,500
Tenshinhan: 1,600
Piccolo: 2,000

Kakusandan: 1,875 each blast
Sayonara Ten-San: 2,000
Kikoho: 2,400 (Injured Tien is probably 800 or 1200 at best)
Enraged Gohan: 2,520
Masenko: 2,800

Nappa: 3,000

Do you think we should take a shot at Piccolo's amp? He fires that uncharged SBC and burns Nappa's back.

I think Gohan is at 1307 since the training was for Gohan to control his hidden power.

Nappa is at 4000. Compare Nappa's block of the Masenko to Raditz's block of the KHH, the former can punch the blast away while the latter had to run away, brace himself and still struggled a bit to block it.

We talked about it on the other thread, and Nappa's hand is burnt. At least Raditz was fine. Vegeta also punches Zarbon's blast without burning himself.

I'm not sure if Feats is gonna agree with me here, but Raditz is probably just a pussy. Dude acts like he's like 1,000 running away from that Kamehameha.

 

[Animelover5487]

I'm not sure if Nappa, Zarbon, Jeice etc can amp at all. Raditz and Vegeta treat it as a totally alien concept when they see it. Vegeta gets a pass since the Garlic Gun has an actual feat, but even then it's possible Goku was just fatigued.

I'm sure Gohan can suppress his power. Vegeta tells Nappa to ditch his scouter because they all can suppress. 1,307 is a cool number as Animelover says, plus 2520/1307 is pretty similar to 1307/710.

Did Yamcha really struggle with Chaozu in the sub? Not sure if they have to be that close, this is a traveling speed feat. 1000 to 1350 is small enough for that. Also, you're already on the Namek Saga on the anime?

Spoiler

Saibamen: 1,200

Chaozu: 1,000
Gohan: 1,307
Yamcha: 1,350
Kuririn: 1,500
Tenshinhan: 1,600
Piccolo: 2,000

Kakusandan: 1,875 each blast
Sayonara Ten-San: 2,000
Kikoho: 2,400 (Injured Tien is probably 800 or 1200 at best)
Enraged Gohan: 2,520
Masenko: 2,800

Nappa: 3,000

Do you think we should take a shot at Piccolo's amp? He fires that uncharged SBC and burns Nappa's back.



We talked about it on the other thread, and Nappa's hand is burnt. At least Raditz was fine. Vegeta also punches Zarbon's blast without burning himself.

I'm not sure if Feats is gonna agree with me here, but Raditz is probably just a pussy. Dude acts like he's like 1,000 running away from that Kamehameha.

By the way Raditz reacted and got into a defense position, I am pretty sure his hand would have been burned or worse if he tried to punch it.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Nappa is at 4000. Compare Nappa's block of the Masenko to Raditz's block of the KHH, the former can punch the blast away while the latter had to run away, brace himself and still struggled a bit to block it.

Ok how strong is Goku's KKx20 Kamehameha and how strong is Freeza? Freeza has less dominance over Goku's Kamehameha than Raditz had over his.

I'm not sure if Nappa, Zarbon, Jeice etc can amp at all. Raditz and Vegeta treat it as a totally alien concept when they see it. Vegeta gets a pass since the Garlic Gun has an actual feat, but even then it's possible Goku was just fatigued.

How can they have a signature move or ultimate move without amp? Why is Nappa's Ultimate Attack better than other attacks?

Did Yamcha really struggle with Chaozu in the sub? Not sure if they have to be that close, this is a traveling speed feat. 1000 to 1350 is small enough for that. Also, you're already on the Namek Saga on the anime?

I'll check the sub now. Chaozu didn't rival Yamcha at the 23rd Budokai right, so there's probably a gap. I think you are right.

And yeah, I'm up to Vegeta vs Zarbon already. I started watching Z when I was still on Neo, got up to Snake Way and gassed out. So I picked up from there.

Do you think we should take a shot at Piccolo's amp? He fires that uncharged SBC and burns Nappa's back.

Sure why not?

Also, 4k is not going to be enough for some of those feats Goku pulled off on Nappa. I mean 4k is too much. 5k + steadily rising absolutely owned Nappa with some of his feats. Nappa being around 3k is probably unavoidable.

I'm not sure if Feats is gonna agree with me here, but Raditz is probably just a pussy. Dude acts like he's like 1,000 running away from that Kamehameha.

He probably was only around 1,000 at the time and had to dip into his fulleffort.

 

[FeatsofPower]

By the way Raditz reacted and got into a defense position, I am pretty sure his hand would have been burned or worse if he tried to punch it.

Punching it will mitigate the burning of the blast, catching it is the worst case scenario. If Freeza punched back Goku's KHH, he wouldn't have been so burnt.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How can they have a signature move or ultimate move without amp? Why is Nappa's Ultimate Attack better than other attacks?

Probably something in the effect of the blast, who knows. The answer to your question is whatever you want it to be, because the fact is: Freeza Force does not know power amplification is a thing. Raditz hangs out with Nappa all the time but shits shimself because Earthlings can amp their attacks?

Sure why not?

So what's it gonna be? 1.1x? 1.2x? Can it bump into Gohan's enraged power? Both can deal some damage to Nappa if he's not serious.

He probably was only around 1,000 at the time and had to dip into his fulleffort.

Can't a 1000 do that with with full effort?

I think in the anime subs it's said "924 and rising" so maybe we can push it up a bit, though I don't see it going past 1000. Still, that kind of fit is something I'd expect from someone who's = the blast.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Probably something in the effect of the blast, who knows.

"Who knows" is not going to cut it for me. I'll stick with the obvious logic that an Ultimate attack is more powerful than a non-ultimate attack as logic would indicate.

Freeza Force does not know power amplification is a thing.

They don't know how anyone is massively amping their ki. Vegeta clearly amped his ki with the Galick Gun.

Raditz hangs out with Nappa all the time but shits shimself because Earthlings can amp their attacks?

Because of amp 2-3x above the fighter's is astronomical. We are talking 1.1111x, a feat Yamcha was capable of in the early stages of the manga.

Can't a 1000 do that with with full effort?

I think he has to transition from 1,000 to his full effort. Think of playing around with someone and running away from them, then getting serious.

I think in the anime subs it's said "924 and rising" so maybe we can push it up a bit, though I don't see it going past 1000. Still, that kind of fit is something I'd expect from someone who's = the blast.

Yes, I believe he was. Which is why Goku is surprised as well.

 

[FeatsofPower]

If Masenko is no amp, then Gohan = 2,800, which makes a lot of our problems go away, right?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

"Who knows" is not going to cut it for me. I'll stick with the obvious logic that an Ultimate attack is more powerful than a non-ultimate attack as logic would indicate.

It is stronger than generic blasts that are lower than their full power level. Is everything Nappa throws at the power of 8000? No. Only his strongest attack is.

That's common sense dude. Not every random punch a fighter throws is their absolute best. Nobody can be using 100% all the time.

They don't know how anyone is massively amping their ki. Vegeta clearly amped his ki with the Galick Gun.

Go check the line from Raditz, the mere ability of Ki changing is baffling for him.

Vegeta is using pushing his ability to it's utmost limits for a planet-buster attack. That's not your casual "here's my FP!" attack.

Because of amp 2-3x above the fighter's is astronomical. We are talking 1.1111x, a feat Yamcha was capable of in the early stages of the manga.

I think this could be taken two ways:
1) Yamcha is stronger and faster, but a scouter wouldn't regist a power level difference. Just like the power ups the Saiyans do on this saga without changing their power level.
2) Yamcha has better Ki control than the Freeza Force. That's more possible than you think, because Earthlings are quite adept at Ki usage.

If Masenko is no amp, then Gohan = 2,800, which makes a lot of our problems go away, right?

Sure, but are you willing to go that route? I can understand the argument, but it feels feeble. It's as you say, what's the difference between a blast and a kick then? Gohan's enraged kick didn't bruise Nappa like that, did it? Better check out the manga.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here's an interesting example: When Piccolo attacks 50% Freeza, he did so with a kick, but said he used all his power for that. That kick cost more energy than a blast, and presumably was stronger than any blast he could pull off as well.

Is it possible blasts are more important because of their special qualities by this point? Like, their Ki control is so advanced they don't need Ki blasts to use their full power anymore. You can't desintegrate someone with a punch, specially if you're 10ft away.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It is stronger than generic blasts that are lower than their full power level. Is everything Nappa throws at the power of 8000? No. Only his strongest attack is.

Nappa has that city destroying attack. His ultimate attack surpasses that.

But yeah, every ki blast they throw isn't equal with their level right? So it is sort of a progression even to get to a ki blast being their actual power level.

This ki amp stuff is wild, it feels like no amp for 99% of attacks is probably best, no?

hat's common sense dude. Not every random punch a fighter throws is their absolute best. Nobody can be using 100% all the time

Ok let's play with this idea. No need for the sass though.

Go check the line from Raditz, the mere ability of Ki changing is baffling for him.

Hmmm... And Raditz should know what the Freeza Force knows.

Vegeta is using pushing his ability to it's utmost limits for a planet-buster attack. That's not your casual "here's my FP!" attack.

It's gotta be significantly amped though, right? So Vegeta knows how to amp and no one else does? Freeza can amp.

I think this could be taken two ways:
1) Yamcha is stronger and faster, but a scouter wouldn't regist a power level difference. Just like the power ups the Saiyans do on this saga without changing their power level.
2) Yamcha has better Ki control than the Freeza Force. That's more possible than you think, because Earthlings are quite adept at Ki usage.

I'd opt for the second. Yamcha is doing a mini-Kaioken like attack and learns the Kamehameha and creates his own technique that most likely surpasses it or matches it but surpasses it in ability to control it.

Yamcha with WFF for sure surpasses his own power.

Sure, but are you willing to go that route? I can understand the argument, but it feels feeble. It's as you say, what's the difference between a blast and a kick then? Gohan's enraged kick didn't bruise Nappa like that, did it? Better check out the manga.

That might be a lower level of rage and a ki blast is without a doubt more destructive.

Even blasts are Masenko vs 3rd Form Freeza, Cooler's Super Nova versus Super Saiyan Goku.

That's how I view how an even blast is or a rivaling blast at least. It'll push you to the brink.

A blast on equal power levels should probably do some damage.

Damn, let's go back to the Nova Strike, it definitely damaged Goku a good deal and that amp matches Kamehameha.

Now what do we do with that?

Grandpa Gohan gets hit with Kamehameha as well.

Damn, dude, this is the most complex topic of the series for sure. It doesn't seem consistent.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Here's an interesting example: When Piccolo attacks 50% Freeza, he did so with a kick, but said he used all his power for that. That kick cost more energy than a blast, and presumably was stronger than any blast he could pull off as well.

Hmm, a blast off guard that's weak won't have the force to move someone evidence 2nd Form Freeza vs Vegeta's Surprise Attack.

But a surprise physical attack can send someone flying. It makes no sense dude. Lol

Is it possible blasts are more important because of their special qualities by this point? Like, their Ki control is so advanced they don't need Ki blasts to use their full power anymore. You can't desintegrate someone with a punch, specially if you're 10ft away.

Their destructive power is on another level than a punch. If it blows up on you it's far superior to a punch.

This whole amp business is so wacky though.

We might be better off going with the idea that there is no amp for now and adding it only when necessary.

You see how TOEI treats amped attacks in Super, maybe that's the way it's been.

The manga treats ki blasts with more respect.

But that Vegeta specific move is definitely a bunch of little weak blasts. But how weak?

This stuff is complicated man. These poor people trying to keep up definitely got headaches right now reading our nonsense lol

 

[FeatsofPower]

Honestly, the Nappa Saga levels are problematic. Man, I hate to be that guy, but the manga power levels have so many issues with them, it's best to discard pretty much all of them if you intend to make a consistent list.

But that deters from the popularity of the numbers. If you have Freeza Saga levels in the billions, it's jarring to people. But perhaps it's really the right way.

I've found some issues with what we've seen in which we are locked in.

Also ki amp is majorly problematic. I don't think anything solves that.

I'm of the mind ki amp doesn't really exist like I thought it did.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ki amp is too inconsistent to be a set thing. We're already making a huge sacrifice ignoring the 2.22x amp and we still have problems.

I don't mean to be a jerk here, but you might be looking too far into it. We already solved everything and there's nowhere else to go. There may be some variations here and there, but this is the bottom line:

Humans: Around 1500
Piccolo: 2000 or a bit more
Gohan: 2800
Nappa: 3000

 

[FeatsofPower]

Ki amp is too inconsistent to be a set thing. We're already making a huge sacrifice ignoring the 2.22x amp and we still have problems.

Isn't that amazing? Imagine actually trying to factor that 2.22x boost now looking back? It has to be thrown out, it's the only way.

I don't mean to be a jerk here, but you might be looking too far into it. We already solved everything and there's nowhere else to go. There may be some variations here and there, but this is the bottom line:

Which is why it's the best place to go. This is really the only thing that can be furthered at this point. In 2011 I pretty much had 90% of the issues down, including proper spacing. It's this last 10% that needs figuring out. In the last few years, I think we handled 9% of the remaining 10, but this ki amp thing is the last percent here.

I think we should be discussing ki amp as our sole thing for the next 6 months and see what we come up with.

Humans: Around 1500
Piccolo: 2000 or a bit more
Gohan: 2800
Nappa: 3000

Kikoho? 2,500?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Isn't that amazing? Imagine actually trying to factor that 2.22x boost now looking back? It has to be thrown out, it's the only way.

Blasts are rarely game changers after everyone learns how to use them. Even the SBC's big deal was the piercing. I say most blasts don't even need to be listed unless they're actually relevant to the scaling. Kikoho? Relevant. Unnamed Piccolo blast? Nah. Garlic Gun? Sure. Ginyu Force's amped attacks? Nah. Nappa's mouth blast? Maybe.

Check this out, by the way:

Goku: 8100
Nappa: 7500
~ Greatest Technique: 8250

That 1.1x is pretty good. I think this one is nice to list because it shows how Nappa can match Goku. But Jeice's Crusher Ball? Who cares that he can go from 60% to 66% of Goku?

Which is why it's the best place to go. This is really the only thing that can be furthered at this point. In 2011 I pretty much had 90% of the issues down, including proper spacing. It's this last 10% that needs figuring out. In the last few years, I think we handled 9% of the remaining 10, but this ki amp thing is the last percent here.

I think we should be discussing ki amp as our sole thing for the next 6 months and see what we come up with.

I'm down. You made a thread, perhaps if we go about it in chronological order. Daizenshuu 2 already has a fight summary, so we can comb which fights have relevant blasts from that.

Kikoho? 2,500?

Anywhere between 2000 and 2800 is fair play. 2400~2500 is good. Maybe 2700, or is it pushing it?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku: 8100
Nappa: 7500

Never, Nappa is right there with no clear superior indicated.

Nappa vs Goku is closer than 2nd Form Freeza Powered up vs Weighted Piccolo.

That 1.1x is pretty good. I think this one is nice to list because it shows how Nappa can match Goku. But Jeice's Crusher Ball? Who cares that he can go from 60% to 66% of Goku?

But didn’t you say Raditz can’t fathom amp?

Either way, Vegeta can 100% amp right? So Raditz is dumb, right?

Anywhere between 2000 and 2800 is fair play. 2400~2500 is good. Maybe 2700, or is it pushing it?

He barely takes damage, the weaker the better. I love 2,400, but I wonder if it’s too far away from Massnko.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Never, Nappa is right there with no clear superior indicated.

Nappa vs Goku is closer than 2nd Form Freeza Powered up vs Weighted Piccolo.

Goku bounced off his best attack with a uncharged Kamehameha. Nappa's toughness closes the power gap.

But didn’t you say Raditz can’t fathom amp?

Either way, Vegeta can 100% amp right? So Raditz is dumb, right?

I think the best intepretation is that Raditz is surprised they can raise and lower their power by so much and so casually. It's one of those cases where Toriyama chose the words poorly, most confusing scenarios comes from that. Nappa strains his ass off for a 10% amp, and Vegeta was putting every single bit of energy into the Garlic Gun and was wasted afterwards.

He barely takes damage, the weaker the better. I love 2,400, but I wonder if it’s too far away from Massnko.

Well there's no reason to buff the Kikoho, is there? Only reason would be to make room for Piccolo's blasts, but we're better off not listing it altogether. They're plain irrelevant.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku bounced off his best attack with a uncharged Kamehameha. Nappa's toughness closes the power gap.

Doesn’t have to be charged to match Nappas amp. Their hand to hand fight already proved them as equals.

Well there's no reason to buff the Kikoho, is there? Only reason would be to make room for Piccolo's blasts, but we're better off not listing it altogether. They're plain irrelevant.

Yeah Kikoho has to be >> Piccolo