Natasha's Full Analysis in Depth Regarding Hit vs Goku Black (anime versions only)

[Natasha Romanoff]

I have to say that collecting all of this information took me more than a month, but it's finally completed.


Re-watching the Champa arc, Goku Black arc and the TOP arc (at least until to Hit's elimination), I made a conclussion about this (as well as using writer's opinion on the matter). Since those characters never fought each other neither were directly compared in the series, we just can judge by either their feats or distinct references given in the anime.

Gowasu states that Goku Black is the strongest:

Spoiler

Keep in mind that Gowasu watched Goku vs Hit on Godtube, but to what exent? We have at least a minimum reference going by his statements:

Spoiler

Gowasu considered that Ssj Blue Goku vs Hit seems to have reached its climax of the fight, but what is a climax?

Climax: the most intense, exciting or important point of something; a culmination or apex.

Culminate in a exciting or impressive event; reaching a climax.

According to it's definition the climax is the part that take more precedence of an event, is certainly the most impressive moment during it, in this case, we can tell that the climax of the fight between Goku and Hit was anywhere between Goku going Kaioken x10 to the very end of the fight, when both showed their full powers and gained recognition between each other.

However, we know that Goku Black isn't the strongest character in the literal sense, as he was stated to be the most powerful character discarding Beerus:

The God of Destruction Beerus is overwhelmingly strong, but if we leave him out, then I think the strongest fighter is Goku Black. I’d say he’s used Son Goku’s power as a base and evolved in his own, unique way.

We know that Goku Black isn't stronger than Kaioken Goku considering his performance against Merged Zamasu, as well as Hit wasn't involved during the arc, so we can't say for sure wheter the scriptor was actually including him. From Gowasu's and the scriptor comments we can tell that Goku Black is anywhere in between Ssj Blue Goku from Champa arc/Hit prior to improving and Beerus. which is abundantly obvious for many reasons, of course.

On top of that, Vegeta acknowledges that Merged Zamasu is the strongest ki he ever felt, even greater than Kaioken x10 Goku or Hit during the Champa arc, but he never gave Goku Black that treatment one episode prior:

Spoiler

However, what if we judge it from the future perspective?

Goku Black could've perfect been equal with Hit (sharing his glory of being the strongest non God/non Fused character) if they were already thinking of the Hit mini arc at that point, Hit was also portrayed to also be stronger than Ssj Blue Goku during this period of time:

Spoiler

Hit would end up being weaker than Kaioken Goku, considering that Goku never felt pressured enough or felt in need to use it, so the gap wasn't that large, either. We don't know wheter we can include Vegeta on this as he never showed how he could fare against either one of them.

Hit (mini arc)~Goku Black>Ssj Blue Goku from Hit mini arc>Champa Arc Hit>=Champa Arc Kaioken x10 Goku

However, Hit got even stronger by fighting Dyspo on Episode 104:

Spoiler

So my final chain would be:
Episode 111 Hit>ToP Ssj Blue Goku>Adapted Hit (104)>~Dyspo>ToP Ssj God Goku>Initial Hit (104)=Mini arc Hit~Goku Black>Mini arc Ssj Blue Goku>Champa Arc Hit>=Champa Arc Kaioken x10 Goku

This was entertaing to do, considering that those two are my favorite characters of DBS =D. Hope you enjoyed reading this thread, I also expect you to share your thoughts on this.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@GreatSaiyaman123
@SIAD
@Animelover5487

(I don't know how much people is invested on DBS on this site)

 

[Animelover5487]

Rose Black is stronger than Champa arc Hit but far weaker than the mini arc Hit since Blue Goku's KHH was able to overpower Merged Zamasu's most powerful blast and melt his face, who's power was stated to not just had combined Black and Zamasu's power but stretched it to no limit.

Mid battle Zenkais are a thing in Super, and Goku, Vegeta and Trunks definitely were getting stronger throughout the MZ battle.

 

[SIAD]

I have:

Goku SSJB (Initial / ToP) = Hit (Power Up vs Dyspo) >= Dyspo (Speed) > Goku SSJB (Mini Arc Hit) > Hit (Vs Dyspo) >= Hit (Mini Arc Hit) = Goku SSJB (Peak Arc Zamasu) >> Vegeta SSJB (Peak Arc Zamasu) > Future Trunks SSJRage (Peak Arc Zamasu) > Goku Black SSJR (Peak) > Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (U6) > Hit (Peak U6).

@Goku9001
@MikaelHarding

Do you know DBS

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Rose Black is stronger than Champa arc Hit but far weaker than the mini arc Hit since Blue Goku's KHH was able to overpower Merged Zamasu's most powerful blast and melt his face, who's power was stated to not just had combined Black and Zamasu's power but stretched it to no limit.

Mid battle Zenkais are a thing in Super, and Goku, Vegeta and Trunks definitely were getting stronger throughout the MZ battle.

Even then, what makes you think that Goku Black is stronger than Champa arc Hit just going by the anime...?

I don't think Zamasu's performance against the saiyans can be taken at face value, Zamasu's whole character is portrayed to always be on denial and understimate his oponents no matter how strong they are. Something similar is shown on Kaioken x20 Goku vs Freeza, Goku uses a Kamehameha on him, but just managed to make him get angry, even though, it didn't visibly do much and on both occasions, Goku has to use more effort than expected.

On top of that, we never got to see Goku Black overexerting himself the way Goku did.

 

[MikaelHarding]

Hit (Without timeskip) is more or less equal to a SSG god level plus he's got a 1,000+ years old amount of fighting experience so maybe if he trained like in the manga he could separately be stronger than a SSBKKx10 or over that is not counting his killing techniques

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Hit (Without timeskip) is more or less equal to a SSG god level plus he's got a 1,000+ years old amount of fighting experience so maybe if he trained like in the manga he could separately be stronger than a SSBKKx10 or over that is not counting his killing techniques

Hmm... but, to what are you exactly replying or which versions are you talking about...? I think Hit's power level and techniques got increased after adapting, so if Hit surpass Ssj Blue Kaioken Goku, his strength is also above that.

@SIAD
Thanks for tagging people.

 

[Animelover5487]

Even then, what makes you think that Goku Black is stronger than Champa arc Hit just going by the anime...?

I don't think Zamasu's performance against the saiyans can be taken at face value, Zamasu's whole character is portrayed to always be on denial and understimate his oponents no matter how strong they are. Something similar is shown on Kaioken x20 Goku vs Freeza, Goku uses a Kamehameha on him, but just managed to make him get angry, even though, it didn't visibly do much and on both occasions, Goku has to use more effort than expected.

On top of that, we never got to see Goku Black overexerting himself the way Goku did.

The KHH did do damage though. It melted half of Zamasy's face and was powerful enough to compromise his pseudo immortality. The difference in the Freeza fight was that Goku was never a threat to Freeza and was getting stomped the entire time until Goku caught him off-guard with the Kaioken x20.

The Saiyans vs MZ goes from them getting stomped so hard it's not even funny to them breaking through his barrier to Vegeta and Trunks overpowering his Holy Wrath to Goku overpowering an even more powerful Holy Wrath, and the fact Goku kicked his face in with a standard Kaioken shows they weren't that far apart Power wise. Zamasu even calls himself a "weak" God before powering up into his Mutated form.

As for Champa arc Hit vs Black. Black is stronger because the narrative he is stronger. Like you said in the op, Gowasu calls Black the strongest and he watched the Goku vs Hit fight up to its climax. The production team also backs this up by saying that Black was second only to Beerus at the time.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

The KHH did do damage though. It melted half of Zamasy's face and was powerful enough to compromise his pseudo immortality. The difference in the Freeza fight was that Goku was never a threat to Freeza and was getting stomped the entire time until Goku caught him off-guard with the Kaioken x20.

The Saiyans vs MZ goes from them getting stomped so hard it's not even funny to them breaking through his barrier to Vegeta and Trunks overpowering his Holy Wrath to Goku overpowering an even more powerful Holy Wrath, and the fact Goku kicked his face in with a standard Kaioken shows they weren't that far apart Power wise. Zamasu even calls himself a "weak" God before powering up into his Mutated form.

As for Champa arc Hit vs Black. Black is stronger because the narrative he is stronger. Like you said in the op, Gowasu calls Black the strongest and he watched the Goku vs Hit fight up to its climax. The production team also backs this up by saying that Black was second only to Beerus at the time.

Hmm no, it was stated that Zamasu's immortal body is having an effect on his mortal side, so no, Goku's Kamehameha didn't do that to Zamasu, but were defects of the fusion.

Spoiler

Also, during the beam struggle between Goku and Merged Zamasu, Zamasu said "I ain't losing" and shows signs of surprise, which means that he wasn't taking him that seriously neither considered him that big of a threat initially, which lead to Zamasu's downfall, but after that he did.

Vegeta and Trunks didn't managed to do anything, unlike Goku, in this case, he explicitly says that no matter how many mortals gather, they can't win, so Zamasu's temper of denial is always on him. On top of that, nobody there considered that Zamasu powered up, they knew that they need Vegetto to go straight to the point.

Gowasu doesn't seem to have watched Kaioken Goku vs Hit since he considered Ssj Blue Goku vs Hit the climax of the fight, is never shown on screen, either, so he only has knowledge on Ssj Blue Goku & Hit. Hit wasn't a character avaliable at the time, so we can't infer he was being taken into account.

 

[SIAD]

Hmm... but, to what are you exactly replying or which versions are you talking about...? I think Hit's power level and techniques got increased after adapting, so if Hit surpass Ssj Blue Kaioken Goku, his strength is also above that.

@SIAD
Thanks for tagging people.

@MikaelHarding

If you can answer this please.

 

[MikaelHarding]

@MikaelHarding

If you can answer this please.

I mean anime hit if he trained like he did in the manga then he'd probably be as strong if not than stronger SSBKKx10 or 20 without timeskip

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I mean anime hit if he trained like he did in the manga then he'd probably be as strong if not than stronger SSBKKx10 or 20 without timeskip

Hit gets stronger the much he improves, but it also has a certain limit when it comes to overcome a gap, as he was able to surpass Goku or Dyspo, but not Jiren. Either way, I don't know what does the situation of Hit training has anything to do with what is discussed on here.

 

[SIAD]

@MikaelHarding

Who do you think is more powerful between Goku SSJR (Peak) and Hit (U6/Peak Tournament)?

 

[Goku9001]

Hmm no, it was stated that Zamasu's immortal body is having an effect on his mortal side, so no, Goku's Kamehameha didn't do that to Zamasu, but were defects of the fusion.

Spoiler

View attachment 1765

Also, during the beam struggle between Goku and Merged Zamasu, Zamasu said "I ain't losing" and shows signs of surprise, which means that he wasn't taking him that seriously neither considered him that big of a threat initially, which lead to Zamasu's downfall, but after that he did.

Vegeta and Trunks didn't managed to do anything, unlike Goku, in this case, he explicitly says that no matter how many mortals gather, they can't win, so Zamasu's temper of denial is always on him. On top of that, nobody there considered that Zamasu powered up, they knew that they need Vegetto to go straight to the point.

Gowasu doesn't seem to have watched Kaioken Goku vs Hit since he considered Ssj Blue Goku vs Hit the climax of the fight, is never shown on screen, either, so he only has knowledge on Ssj Blue Goku & Hit. Hit wasn't a character avaliable at the time, so we can't infer he was being taken into account.

You're missing the point. The reason why the mortal side was having an effect on Merged Zamasu is that he couldn't regenerate from the attack completely despite his immortality. The reason he needed to regenerate was because of Goku's attacks. This is why Gowasu concluded that Goku and Vegeta could kill Merged Zamasu if they used stronger attacks because they could see that Merged Zamasu could actually take damage from their attacks.

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with most of what you said. I think Blue Goku definitely was much stronger than Goku Black towards the end of the Zamasu saga. The Saiyans were all getting mid-battle boosts to compete with someone much stronger than Goku Black. This is even supported by the narrator in Episode 66 who initially claims that the Saiyans were overwhelmed but then eventually, their attacks began to bear down on Merged Zamasu. The implication is that the Saiyans were much weaker before and then started to become a threat to Merged Zamasu.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

You're missing the point. The reason why the mortal side was having an effect on Merged Zamasu is that he couldn't regenerate from the attack completely despite his immortality. The reason he needed to regenerate was because of Goku's attacks. This is why Gowasu concluded that Goku and Vegeta could kill Merged Zamasu if they used stronger attacks because they could see that Merged Zamasu could actually take damage from their attacks.

Edit: Otherwise, I agree with most of what you said. I think Blue Goku definitely was much stronger than Goku Black towards the end of the Zamasu saga. The Saiyans were all getting mid-battle boosts to compete with someone much stronger than Goku Black. This is even supported by the narrator in Episode 66 who initially claims that the Saiyans were overwhelmed but then eventually, their attacks began to bear down on Merged Zamasu. The implication is that the Saiyans were much weaker before and then started to become a threat to Merged Zamasu.

No, it were defects of the fusion, not because of Goku's Kamehameha. The inestability of Zamasu was always present on the fusion and is always shown to be a weakness of himself. Zamasu wasn't completely immortal anymore as Goku will always form part of himself (Vegetto point this out to be).

Even then, the most Goku managed to do was to make him get angry rather than damage him, Goku on his own acknowledges that Fusion is the only chance to prevail because of his attacks failed on make him any damage. On a similar instance, think of Vegeta vs Majin Buu more or less, in which Vegeta manages to get him angry, even though his attacks were having little to no damage on him.

Zamasu could actually take no damage from a Final Kamehameha and could regenerate from Vegetto's last blow, if the far stronger Vegetto can't make that much. Then, Goku definitely wouldn't be able to do anything even if he tried.

I can think of Kaioken Goku being edge out of victory against Goku Black, but definitely not regular Blue Goku. When it comes to narrator statements, I don't know how much value it can have, the narrator also stated that Beerus was showing his full power on Goku during his fight.

 

[Goku9001]

No, it were defects of the fusion, not because of Goku's Kamehameha. The inestability of Zamasu was always present on the fusion and is always shown to be a weakness of himself. Zamasu wasn't completely immortal anymore as Goku will always form part of himself (Vegetto point this out to be).

Even then, the most Goku managed to do was to make him get angry rather than damage him, Goku on his own acknowledges that Fusion is the only chance to prevail because of his attacks failed on make him any damage. On a similar instance, think of Vegeta vs Majin Buu more or less, in which Vegeta manages to get him angry, even though his attacks were having little to no damage on him.

Zamasu could actually take no damage from a Final Kamehameha and could regenerate from Vegetto's last blow, if the far stronger Vegetto can't make that much. Then, Goku definitely wouldn't be able to do anything even if he tried.

I can think of Kaioken Goku being edge out of victory against Goku Black, but definitely not regular Blue Goku. When it comes to narrator statements, I don't know how much value it can have, the narrator also stated that Beerus was showing his full power on Goku during his fight.

That's not a rebuttal. We know there were defects in the fusion. Zamasu wouldn't need his immortality if he hadn't received damage. That's literally what it was used for.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

That's not a rebuttal. We know there were defects in the fusion. Zamasu wouldn't need his immortality if he hadn't received damage. That's literally what it was used for.

You saying "that's not rebuttal" implies that I was trying to debunk you, when I was clearly not, this is a site in which we are here to discuss diferent views, is too immaturate to think that someone here cares about what the others think regardless of how wrong those beliefs are.

A fact is that Vegetto mocked Zamasu because he was in pain by receiving his ki sword, so yes, he wasn't immortal anymore and taking damage is something possible.

If you can't give an straight answer, I think the best choice might be avoid to respond, otherwise you do nothing.

 

[Goku9001]

You saying "that's not rebuttal" implies that I was trying to debunk you, when I was clearly not, this is a site in which we are here to discuss diferent views, is too immaturate to think that someone here cares about what the others think regardless of how wrong those beliefs are.

A fact is that Vegetto mocked Zamasu because he was in pain by receiving his ki sword, so yes, he wasn't immortal anymore and taking damage is something possible.

If you can't give an straight answer, I think the best choice might be avoid to respond, otherwise you do nothing.

This doesn't address how Gowasu's statement was in reference to how Black was influencing Zamasu's immortality which is a result of needing to regenerate from damage. The only moment where he visibly received damage was from Goku's Kamehameha. I'm not sure how your argument has anything to do with what we are discussing here.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

This doesn't address how Gowasu's statement was in reference to how Black was influencing Zamasu's immortality which is a result of needing to regenerate from damage. The only moment where he visibly received damage was from Goku's Kamehameha. I'm not sure how your argument has anything to do with what we are discussing here.

Yes, he is influencing, has he be immortal none of that could've actually happened, the inestability is what produced all the deformations he had. Are you losing the notion of time? Serious question, no offense.

No, he took damage and needed to regenerate from Vegetto's last blow, which is irrelevant since we are not discussing specifics.

 

[Goku9001]

Yes, he is influencing, has he be immortal none of that could've actually happened, the inestability is what produced all the deformations he had. Are you losing the notion of time? Serious question, no offense.

No, he took damage and needed to regenerate from Vegetto's last blow, which is irrelevant since we are not discussing specifics.

I believe we were talking about what occurred immediately after Goku overpowered Merged Zamasu with his Kamehameha. Zamasu couldn't regenerate properly from the attack because Black was also a part of him. The reason he needed to regenerate was because of Goku's attack.