Natasha's opinion on who is stronger: Hit (mini arc) vs Toppo (Zen Exhibition Match)

[Natasha Romanoff]

First of all, Hit was clearly stronger than SSj Blue Goku even holding back as he was the first one to step up after receiving a Kamehameha from him and Goku said he was one step ahead of him:

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I can compare Hit superiority over Goku like Cell over Goku:

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So, to create a paralelism for the gaps:
SSj Blue Goku: 90
Hit (holding back): 100
Hit (full effort): 127.8

Then, Goku got rusty in Episode 77:

Spoiler

So, to not especulate:
SSjB Goku (rusty): 81

I can compare SSj Blue Goku vs Toppo to SSj3 Goku (holding back) vs Fat Buu:
SSj3 Goku (holding back): 80 - 85
Fat Buu: 80
SSj3 Goku: 100

Base Toppo: 76.23 - 81

Goku is evenly matched or slightly superior to Toppo as a SSj Blue

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Then, Toppo uses his red aura and Goku uses Kaioken, which is implied 4 times to both be within the same tier:

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Similarly as to how Piccolo asked Goku whether he could defeat Fat Buu due to the similaries of power, Belmod also due to the same with Toppo:

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Base Toppo (Red Aura): 129.6 - 162
SSj Blue Kaioken Rusty Goku: 162

So, my guess would be:

SSj Blue Kaioken Rusty Goku >= Red Aura Toppo > Full effort Hit (72) > Holding Back Hit > SSj Blue Goku (72) > SSj Blue Goku (82) >= Base Toppo

What do you think? I think that Toppo got stronger in the TOP because he came from being equal or slightly weaker to a Rusty SSjB Goku to being evenly matched with a Post Rosat SSj Blue Vegeta, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@SIAD
@GreatSaiyaman123

 

[SIAD]

I have: Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat) = Goku SSJB Kaioken (82) = Toppo (FP) >>> Goku SSJB (82) > Goku SSJB (Arc Hit) > Hit (Arc Hit).

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I still maintain my position from last time that Goku > Hit. Goku blew up Hit’s pocket dimension. This is hardly comparable to Goku vs Cell because Hit relies more on his abilities than raw power. They don’t even trade blows the whole fight.

As for Toppo… I made some research, and it looks like the red aura is just the normal color of his aura. He doesn’t even have it against 17 and Freeza. Vegeta doesn’t have an aura against Toppo, does that mean he wasn’t going all out either?

SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta = Toppo > Hit (ToP) > Hit (Filler)

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I still maintain my position from last time that Goku > Hit. Goku blew up Hit’s pocket dimension. This is hardly comparable to Goku vs Cell because Hit relies more on his abilities than raw power. They don’t even trade blows the whole fight.

Are you sure about this?

Spoiler

A punch from Goku barely moved him while Hit send him flying.

I think it's possible that Goku went beyond his limits to achieve such a feat, although it's also possible to be his hidden power.

Why was Goku shaking in fear, though?

As for Toppo… I made some research, and it looks like the red aura is just the normal color of his aura. He doesn’t even have it against 17 and Freeza. Vegeta doesn’t have an aura against Toppo, does that mean he wasn’t going all out either?

Against 17, he only showed it for a little time.

Actually, Vegeta was the one that had an aura the whole fight, Toppo didn't even had one.

Spoiler

SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta = Toppo > Hit (ToP) > Hit (Filler)

On here, Toppo is just Rusty Goku level. TOP Toppo should be a different story as even Dyspo is ahead of him.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

A punch from Goku barely moved him while Hit send him flying.

I think it's possible that Goku went beyond his limits to achieve such a feat, although it's also possible to be his hidden power.

Why was Goku shaking in fear, though?

The punch went right through Hit. Vados had just explained that and Goku says it right after. He was using that sort of spectral form most of the fight to avoid Goku's attacks.

Goku was shaking because he had no idea of how to defeat Hit. How can he defeat an opponent that's not even there?

Against 17, he only showed it for a little time.

Actually, Vegeta was the one that had an aura the whole fight, Toppo didn't even had one.

Only when he charged his blast. Reminds me of how Saiyan Saga Vegeta only had an aura when charging the Garlic Gun, or Freeza's aura when using the Nova Strike.

The aura vanishes halfway through the fight, I think it's when Toppo grabs him or right before. And auras are a trait of SSJ forms anyway so they have to be there for at least a little bit.

Auras are mostly an artistic choice that don't really convey anything. If you really want to say it means something, it's probably Toppo charging his Justice Beam. The only other time we see him with an aura is against 17, after all.

On here, Toppo is just Rusty Goku level. TOP Toppo should be a different story as even Dyspo is ahead of him.

Dyspo > Toppo? When? Is it because of Dyspo beating Hit?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

The punch went right through Hit. Vados had just explained that and Goku says it right after. He was using that sort of spectral form most of the fight to avoid Goku's attacks.

Goku said that he grazed him, which Hits responds as a compliment that he isn't amazed considering him.

Spoiler

Vados' statement came before this happened, plus, even before that point, he already countered some of Hit's attacks.

Goku was shaking because he had no idea of how to defeat Hit. How can he defeat an opponent that's not even there?

Okay. You're ignoring the big image of how the fight it is presented. After Goku states that Hit is far stronger than what he was in the tournament, he also states that he can also go even further, then Goku states that he is shaking, which Hit clarified to us that he ain't shaking of excitement, but of fear. This goes against typical saiyan temper which is a race that enjoys fighting strong opponents, Vegeta knows this, Cell knows this, Goku knows this, etc.

Only when he charged his blast. Reminds me of how Saiyan Saga Vegeta only had an aura when charging the Garlic Gun, or Freeza's aura when using the Nova Strike.

The aura vanishes halfway through the fight, I think it's when Toppo grabs him or right before. And auras are a trait of SSJ forms anyway so they have to be there for at least a little bit.

Auras are mostly an artistic choice that don't really convey anything. If you really want to say it means something, it's probably Toppo charging his Justice Beam. The only other time we see him with an aura is against 17, after all.

I don't get your point on this. Toppo showed his red aura on 17 and then says that he'll use all the justice remaining in him

My point ain't that Vegeta is going all-out against Toppo while Toppo doesn't as we barely get to see some of their fight.

Dyspo > Toppo? When? Is it because of Dyspo beating Hit?

Due to that and how Toppo fought evenly with a rusty Goku. Goku afterwards trained with Whis in SSjB in the gravity machine, as well as Vegeta trained in the Rosat, Toppo fought evenly with SSjB Vegeta, which is an improvement in his power.

Unless you can make sense of Rusty SSJB Goku and Post Rosat SSJB Vegeta being within the same tier of power the fundation of creating an scalling about Base Toppo having always the same power is illogical.