new DB Power levels

Goku9001

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Well, I stand by my position that both premises look possible.
My point is very simple. Why would Trunks be referring to Super Saiyan when they decide to start the fight as Base Gotenks? Within Trunks' conversation with Goten, there was no such discussion about transforming mid-fight at all. Part of the reason for dragging out the fight would be to show Piccolo how far they've come. Surprising them with a transformation after fusion would certainly add to the dramatic effect.

One direct counterpoint to Trunks' claim I think is compelling would be why Trunks and Goten felt the need to surpass Super Saiyan if they already felt like Base Gotenks was enough. Certainly, SSJ Gotenks would pulverize him if Base Gotenks is on par with Super Buu as per Trunks' admission. Within that scene, Trunks claims that they can definitively beat Super Buu after they now learned Super Saiyan 3. As per the Viz,

Chapter: 295, P2.5
Context: Piccolo leads Buu to the RoSaT while Trunks and Goten discuss about Super Saiyan 3.
Trunks: *Pant* *Pant* "See...We did it!"
Goten: "Y-Yeah!! *Gasp*...*Gasp*...Wow! I never knew there was a level beyond Super Saiyan...!"
Trunks: "We can beat him now for sure...!"
 

ahill1

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Yes, I was saying that Trunks seemed to emphasize SSJ3 as its own thing. He even said he was surprised there was something above SSJ. Who knows what he considers exactly as regular fusion? May be what he was already used to, base or SSJ. And it'd be a pretty big leap going from base to SSJ3. They didn't mean to even showcase their SSJ form? Just fight evenly with Boo and then turn into a SSJ3 and vaporize him? I think the transition would be more organic as SSJ fighting evenly and then SSJ3 being used. Trunks also says 5 minutes are plenty for Boo. No shit, if regular fusion is already = Boo, then 5 minutes are more than enough to deal with 5 Boos. I think it'd make a little more sense with that if it were SSJ as equal to Boo too.

I also think Boo's opinion of Gotenks should be relevant. The information he had on Gotenks from Goku was that he was strong and stronger than SSJ3 Goku still. If base Gotenks were 2x+ already stronger than SSJ3 Goku, surely Super Boo would be that disappointed with their power? I think yeah, he knew that he had been training in that room to face him, but base Gotenks seemed to be treated as a total disappointment for someone supposedly blowing any guy Super Boo faced before out of the water. SSJ Gotenks entertained him... And SSJ3 was already the non-expected variant.

But it's a little weird either way because Gotenks used finishing techniques against Boo like the ghost attacks. He had expected to have defeated Boo then and Piccolo was even saying he did a good job. He wouldn't have shown his SSJ3 power as intended were that the case. So the writing seems flimsy in some aspects.

But the narrative flows well with Trunks's prediction were it towards SSJ imo. He said they'd have an extreme hard battle and once they'd be all tensed up, they'd show their ultimate state. He had a good battle Vs Super Boo as SSJ. Granted Boo had the advantage, but there may lie their underestimation of Boo, not a huge, absurd underestimation where they thought base could succeed when Boo didn't even flinch from his attacks and actual Boo was like 10x+ above that.

So that's where I see the SSJ side being ~ initial estimated Super Boo (>>> SSJ Gotenks pre and SSJ3 Goku) making sense.
 

SSJ2

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So what do you make of Gero's calculations to beat Vegeta? Delusion?
 

SSJ2

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Also I see you've gone back to Piccolo > Base Saiyans :gay
 

ahill1

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I think either Gero is full of shit, which wouldn't be really so heavily leaned on Gero making constant miscalculations, but on the fact he thought absorbing Piccolo's suppressed energy once more would give him the edge vs Vegeta. That's just very hard to accept and almost impossible to represent numerically. Gero already got swiftly beated up by Piccolo... And then Vegeta is some levels above Piccolo... How does absorbing a power described by Piccolo as "nothing" make him climb up two tiers of power? Were it only his statement that absorbing the earthlings would give him the advantage vs Vegeta, then yeah, I could take that into account, but the stuff with suppressed Piccolo just make it seem to me theremwas something wrong with Gero's estimations.

Either that, or the way his absorption works is more than a simple addition. Since Yamcha, who was initially confused with a Goku that they believe didn't make unbelievable progress since the battle on Earth was said to be a good source of energy, maybe it'd be more than a simple sum. Or 19 absorbing Goku's KMHMH for instamce... Had the absorptions worked as simple additions, 19 post KMHMH would, like, blow initial sick SSJ Goku out of the water since, even assuming the KMHMH doesn't yield a 2x increase, it'd still be at least equivalent to absorbing all of sick SSJ Goku's power and adding it to 19's regular base... Didn't seem to be the case.

So overall, I find complications in abiding to this power statement, while it's still a statement clearly laid out, it doesn't mesh well overall with the other implications.

And yeah, for having base > Piccolo I'd need to make the adult base Saiyans incredibly strong and have to justify why the base kids would look so weak in comparison. I'd slso need an incredible small SSJ multiplier due to having base >>> CGs Piccolo while <<<< SSJ... And since there's a clear cap on their improvement in those 7 years, I find it convoluted to grasp their base would improve so off sync with the SSJ. Easier for me to just explain the Vegeta's statement on the spaceship as him not knowing Piccolo was there, or that Gohan expected Piccolo to use some proportional powers to their base powers, since he knows Piccolo isn't there wanting to absolutely win the thing, he's like happy Goku is coming back and he wants to switch hands for old times. I doubt Piccolo would fell nice KO'ing Goku and Gohan while they can't use SSJ, and taking the W over an obvious handcap they had. He isn't the type for such. 18 would be the type for it tho, so yeah, I'd say their implications in winning with 18 there stand.

And I found a comfortable spot for Kaioshin lately which I haven't changed in a while. He'd be up there with SSJ CGs Goku and way below Cell, Dabura and ppl beyond. I used to follow your Kaioshin was <<<<<< Piccolo and I find it has a very good logic supporting it, the breakdowns you guys made in the past putting Piccolo >>>>> Kaioshin = trash were very well done. I think I'm board with the usual, Kaioshin had PTSD and was cautious, not thinking straightly, being the guy that maybe would fear even a Saibaiman if they had a M in the forehead... And that Kaioshin was back to the God one when fighting fat Boo.

Sorry for wanking Kaioshin that high haha


:troll
 

Goku9001

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You'd literally be denying the story if you had Piccolo > Kaioshin. It's flat-out presented as a case of Kaioshin being much stronger than Piccolo which leads the Saiyans to overestimate Kaioshin until it was revealed that he wasn't anything special.
 

SSJ2

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You can argue that it's presented in the story, but by what basis? There is no possible way for Piccolo to sense Kaioshin.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Then why’d he leave saying that? He clearly sensed something when Shin read his mind.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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I don’t really think Shin was intended to be weaker than Base Saiyans, and the evidence turns out to be more incidental instead of Toriyama’s true purpose.

Look at how badly this saga is written. I don’t have to list the flaws here, we all know them by heart and this part of the saga is the biggest example. Shin is acting clueless so he can be the cheerleader. He’s not avoiding fights because he can’t, but because it’s the Saiyans’ turn to fight. Shin and Babidi were going blind on each other with little intel. When push comes to shove, Shin does put up a fight against Fat Boo (And Dabra and Zamasu in Super).

Piccolo being weaker than Base Saiyans has more evidence, but in hindsight it’s more a case of Toriyama not having anything to do with Piccolo in this saga.
 

ahill1

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I think one interesting point is Shin thinking he'd "pin Babidi down", while looking at Babidi seriously... While Piccolo took no knowledge of Babidi and cut him down in half without a little bit of a struggle. Kaioshin >>> Piccolo is backed up by Piccolo clearly using a sentence pertaining to power, but the struggle he had with Kaioshin at the Budokai reads way more easily as his instincts holding him back due to the Kami inside him. He didn't even know why he was feeling petrified --- if it were because he sensed a big power from Kaioshin, he'd clearly point that out. Kaioshin then says he had realized WHO he was due to being formely the God of Earth... Which also leans heavily on Piccolo just not feeling well in attacking someone of a higher hierarchy, as despite him saying he's mostly Piccolo, Kami still clearly had some effect on him --- he called the God's temple stinky once, but upon fusing started to live there... And he showed respect to Kaioshin like wanting to save him from Boo while he treated Kaio-sama casually. Kami clearly had an effect on him regarding how he perceives Gods in general and on his life style.
 

Goku9001

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Piccolo didn't know he was weaker until after he discovered who Kaioshin was. Kaioshin even reaffirmed Piccolo's decision by suggesting that he must have discovered his identity. The two aren't mutually exclusive. They are directly connected.
 

Goku9001

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So he was going by reputation?
It's going to be twisted to support Piccolo > Kaioshin but it's very clear that Piccolo knew that Kaioshin was stronger than him based on who he was. The only ones who overestimated Kaioshin were the Saiyans.

Babidi vs. Piccolo wouldn't even be a proper counterargument. Piccolo ambushed Babidi and took him by surprise. That's no different than Android 18 taking the SSJ Kids by surprise by revealing that she knew who they were which gave her ample time to land a Kienzan on the kids. That doesn't mean Android 18 would win by normal means. It's just a bs argument when the story is frankly clear on Piccolo being weaker than Kaioshin. Goku even questions it and we are given a definite answer by Piccolo.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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It's going to be twisted to support Piccolo > Kaioshin but it's very clear that Piccolo knew that Kaioshin was stronger than him based on who he was. The only ones who overestimated Kaioshin were the Saiyans.

Babidi vs. Piccolo wouldn't even be a proper counterargument. Piccolo ambushed Babidi and took him by surprise. That's no different than Android 18 taking the SSJ Kids by surprise by revealing that she knew who they were which gave her ample time to land a Kienzan on the kids. That doesn't mean Android 18 would win by normal means. It's just a bs argument when the story is frankly clear on Piccolo being weaker than Kaioshin. Goku even questions it and we are given a definite answer by Piccolo.

Piccolo didn’t take Babidi by surprise. He ambushed him, said he was going to kill him, Babidi had a “Oh shit” reaction and tried to call Boo. The anime even had Piccolo break his magic.

Babidi was just full of shit about taking Kaioshin himself.
 

Goku9001

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Piccolo didn’t take Babidi by surprise. He ambushed him, said he was going to kill him, Babidi had a “Oh shit” reaction and tried to call Boo. The anime even had Piccolo break his magic.

Babidi was just full of shit about taking Kaioshin himself.
So Piccolo ambushed him but that suddenly falls in line with Babidi expecting him to be there? No offense, but there are so many arguments people make up in favor of Kaioshin and his fear during Babidi's ship but no one ever comes up with a reason as to why Babidi was scared. Talk about double standards. If we're going to be fair here, perhaps Babidi expected Piccolo to be far stronger than Kaioshin based on the Saiyans being far stronger than they expected.

Babidi wasn't full of shit. He was taken by surprise much like the Super Saiyan kids were by Android 18 discovering their identity which enabled her to land an attack from a distance when that obviously wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Android 18 declared their identity, the kids had an "Oh shit" reaction and clumsily tried to dodge the attack. Sounds familiar, eh?
 

ahill1

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Some more feedback? Maybe I'll save the Kaioshin Vs Piccolo debate for latter.

What do you guys feel about placing the base kids (Boo saga) on SSJ Vegeta's level when he fought 18? Main problem is that places them more distanced from the adults and Gohan than I'd like. It's tough to have them = 18 in base though because 18 doesn't lose her composure when she sees the power she just fought going SSJ. So that prompts me to think she was still holding back some power.

If anyone could present me a very good argument for why 18 wouldn't lose her shit seeing them turning SSJ seeing she just saw they could defend and withstand her blows before if she were at FP, I'm totally down for it. Just notice that 18 didn't seem calm because she realized who they were... Since she was scared with a blast that was moderately above her (since Trunks didn't want to kill her)... And then said "change of plans!"... So she wasn't expecting to expose them from the start, she actually was surprised when their power moderately surpassed her.

Can anyone offer any substantial logic for her behaviour? Because having the base kids = 18 would help having them close to teen Gohan considering Vegeta seems considerably beyond 18 in base and so does Gohan.
 

Cirno777

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Can anyone offer any substantial logic for her behaviour? Because having the base kids = 18 would help having them close to teen Gohan considering Vegeta seems considerably beyond 18 in base and so does Gohan.
It's not in-universe logic, but in Daizenshuu 2, Goten is stated to have strength not the least bit inferior to Gohan. So if you already believe Gohan > C18, then also Goten > C18.
 
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Cirno777

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From the start, C18 would have been suppressing her power, because she would've expected to fight a regular Human (Mighty Mask), and so if Goten and Trunks weren't destroying her at that level, they were also suppressed, right? Is it possible that when they went Super Saiyan, they were still suppressing their power? Which is why C18 wasn't shook initially.
 

ahill1

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Trunks wouldn't be suppressing himself when fighting in base, the bother was actually the costume being restrictive. But the question is, can 18 be at FP and at the same time seem composed when seeing the ones she hit at FP and didn't damage just increased their power through SSJ? I wonder.

Maybe since 18 knew they were using that costume, she thought that if they tried fighting her in SSj h2h they'd be still disadvantaged like Trunks told Goten they'd be. But still, why'd she be shocked with a blast moderately above her power when she saw their base states withstood a punch with no damages from her FP and she saw them transforming? That's weird. Unless she expected them to get a 1.1x boost, the blast was 1.25x above her and she was shocked... Anyways, tough to reconcile that with 18 fighting at her fullest Vs the base kids. And if she wasn't fighting at her fullest, Trunks was having problems and making struggling expressions to block her attacks even before she kicked where Goten couldn't see, which may mean a suppressed 18 is around base kid Trunks. Or maybe since Trunks was in Goten's shoulders, he didn't have his lower body and foot work tight enough to defend those shots more easily and would have done so easily if he wasn't with his legs pretty much incapacitated? Perhaps. But still, he told Goten to dodge 18's blast, he didn't simply tank or deflect that.
 

Goku9001

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It's not in-universe logic, but in Daizenshuu 2, Goten is stated to have strength not the least bit inferior to Gohan. So if you already believe Gohan > C18, then also Goten > C18.
That could be in reference to Pre-Budokai Gohan.
 
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