new DB Power levels

Goku9001

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Trunks wouldn't be suppressing himself when fighting in base, the bother was actually the costume being restrictive. But the question is, can 18 be at FP and at the same time seem composed when seeing the ones she hit at FP and didn't damage just increased their power through SSJ? I wonder.

Maybe since 18 knew they were using that costume, she thought that if they tried fighting her in SSj h2h they'd be still disadvantaged like Trunks told Goten they'd be. But still, why'd she be shocked with a blast moderately above her power when she saw their base states withstood a punch with no damages from her FP and she saw them transforming? That's weird. Unless she expected them to get a 1.1x boost, the blast was 1.25x above her and she was shocked... Anyways, tough to reconcile that with 18 fighting at her fullest Vs the base kids. And if she wasn't fighting at her fullest, Trunks was having problems and making struggling expressions to block her attacks even before she kicked where Goten couldn't see, which may mean a suppressed 18 is around base kid Trunks. Or maybe since Trunks was in Goten's shoulders, he didn't have his lower body and foot work tight enough to defend those shots more easily and would have done so easily if he wasn't with his legs pretty much incapacitated? Perhaps. But still, he told Goten to dodge 18's blast, he didn't simply tank or deflect that.
If we're leaning on that angle, I think Base Trunks should be above SSJ Vegeta.

Android 18: 100
Base Trunks: 80-85
SSJ Vegeta: 66-70

I think Base Trunks could definitely be above Android 18 but not considerably. Trunks definitely didn't want to take Android 18's ki blast directly and the costume doesn't reduce battle power like weights do.
 

Cirno777

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That could be in reference to Pre-Budokai Gohan.
Could be, but they trained together for a few months, so their gains should be similar.
SSJ Trunks also manages to land a good punch on SSJ Vegeta, although I never really put much stock into that, but it's there.


Actually, I changed my mind, it's referring to Ultimate Gohan, Base Goten > Ultimate Gohan.
 

Goku9001

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Could be, but they trained together for a few months, so their gains should be similar.
SSJ Trunks also manages to land a good punch on SSJ Vegeta, although I never really put much stock into that, but it's there.


Actually, I changed my mind, it's referring to Ultimate Gohan, Base Goten > Ultimate Gohan.
True. The way I think of it is that Gohan had muscle memory and merely had to regain what he lost which i s much easier than making new gains.
 

Cirno777

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True. The way I think of it is that Gohan had muscle memory and merely had to regain what he lost which i s much easier than making new gains.
That would be true, but in my case I use the Buu Saga Gohan = CG Gohan from Daizenshuu 2. I like that muscle memory point though.
 

ahill1

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I think it's worth noting Goten and Gohan also seemed to be on an intense spar midway through their training with both as SSJs... So I don't know if Gohan evolved at a way quicker pace. Besides, Goten also has huge potential considering he has already that much power over playing around with Trunks and being introduced to martial arts by Chi Chi, so his potential for growth, specially when trained by someone possessing bigger knowledge on it, would be immense.
 

Dagon

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I think either Gero is full of shit, which wouldn't be really so heavily leaned on Gero making constant miscalculations, but on the fact he thought absorbing Piccolo's suppressed energy once more would give him the edge vs Vegeta. That's just very hard to accept and almost impossible to represent numerically. Gero already got swiftly beated up by Piccolo... And then Vegeta is some levels above Piccolo... How does absorbing a power described by Piccolo as "nothing" make him climb up two tiers of power? Were it only his statement that absorbing the earthlings would give him the advantage vs Vegeta, then yeah, I could take that into account, but the stuff with suppressed Piccolo just make it seem to me theremwas something wrong with Gero's estimations.
Try this:

#20 Post 2nd suppressed Piccolo: 116
Vegeta SSJ: 100
Goku SSJ: 95
F. Trunks SSJ: 90
Piccolo(full power): 80
Piccolo(suppressed): 56
#20 Post Piccolo: 60
#20 Post Vegeta: 50
#20 Post Yamcha: 49.9
 

Goku9001

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Try this:

#20 Post 2nd suppressed Piccolo: 116
Vegeta SSJ: 100
Goku SSJ: 95
F. Trunks SSJ: 90
Piccolo(full power): 80
Piccolo(suppressed): 56
#20 Post Piccolo: 60
#20 Post Vegeta: 50
#20 Post Yamcha: 49.9
I don't think Suppressed Piccolo should be stronger than Android 20 (Post-Vegeta).
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Try this:

#20 Post 2nd suppressed Piccolo: 116
Vegeta SSJ: 100
Goku SSJ: 95
F. Trunks SSJ: 90
Piccolo(full power): 80
Piccolo(suppressed): 56
#20 Post Piccolo: 60
#20 Post Vegeta: 50
#20 Post Yamcha: 49.9

Shouldn't suppressed Piccolo be a 10? How does that work?
 

Dagon

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Shouldn't suppressed Piccolo be a 10? How does that work?
Ah I see, I made a mistake. Well it's a conundrum. Just spent an hour talking to AI about it and there isn't a fantastically logical answer. Simpler to say Dr. Gero is wrong about his caclulations.
 

FeatsofPower

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Hmm, honestly, the only reason we have issue with Gotenks power is the extremity of the power levels. The bloating. The author does not care about any of that. Look at Super. It's all super bloating. He's writing a story. He doesn't care about the "authenticity" of "realistic" power levels. We bought into the hype that there was some sort of logic behind it. There's not. He makes the story entertaining. That's it.

We don't have to like it, but, this is the reality.

Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre >>= Ssj3 Goku >> Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta

Super Saiyan 3 is a boost more or less on par with Super Saiyan. Perhaps even a bit stronger.

Super Saiyan is probably somewhere around 10x going by Gero's calculations.

And that's really it. Super Saiyan doesn't appear to be a 50x boost, there has to be some sort of mystery zenkai happening there and Base Goku seems far more formidable post Ssj when he is going against Freeza.

No one feels 50x weaker. Now can you argue in universe that it should be? Sure. But realistically it's 10x. And maybe you come up with some bs reason why Kaioken x20 is not used.

And even if its 50x, then those gaps just get extended. Super Saiyan 3 becomes a 50 ish x boost. And that's that.

Those are the options. Gero's faulty calculations seem to add up with what AT was thinking and then we have to extrapolate further if the 50x just overrides everything.


Super Saiyan 50x
Super Saiyan 2 5x
Super Saiyan 3 70x

If I'm just going off what I'm seeing here, that's probably it. No one is going to like it, but it is what it is.

Majin Vegeta 100
Base Gotenks 150
Ssj3 Goku 7,000
Ssj Gotenks 7,500

If you don't like the numbers, you have to go with the 10x Super Saiyan boost, no other choice imo.


Majin Vegeta 100
Base Gotenks 150
Ssj3 Goku 1,350
Ssj Gotenks 1,500


Something like that.

Honestly, the safest option is going 50x and just dealing with the bloat.

Does this make Gotenks monstrously strong? It sure does. What are our other options? To do what with the gag exactly?

Base Gotenks > Mr. Buu in Super is upheld. No reason to go against it. AT probably didn't think fusion was over the top enough and wanted to up the ante and boxed himself in. Just like he did with Gohan being a Super Saiyan.

He messed up a lot in the Buu Saga, considering how well he did for the whole manga, we just have to accept it.

It's really hard for me to deny Gero's scouter numbers though. If he attribute d some numbers to what his calculations were, this discussion is completely over.

At a 50x boost, the humans and Gohan simply cannot be worthwhile at all to Gero who is Super Saiyan-ish level.

10x is really a low end, I think my calculations showed 5x seemed way more in line with reality.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Base Gotenks Pre Rosat is a nothing. What reason is there to make him high SSJ2 tier to begin with? Anyone can show up and say "I can beat Majin Boo". Talk is cheap. Everyone knew Gotenks was in denial so there's no "Boo's Ki is like a lie" to cover this up.

Base Post is a maybe. It's not directly implied, what they imply is Base = Super Boo for the sake of saying "nah jk" after. Base > SSJ is a consequence of the main thing, but the main thing wasn't serious to begin with so why bother?

AT never thought Base Gotenks was anything special. Small gaps in the Boo Saga make more sense since Goku catches up without much training in BoG. Also BoG has Goku needing SSJ to fight Kid Boo in image training, and he's stronger than Gotenks by then (though it's possible Gotenks lost his Rosat gains by slacking).
 

FeatsofPower

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Base Gotenks Pre Rosat is a nothing. What reason is there to make him high SSJ2 tier to begin with? Anyone can show up and say "I can beat Majin Boo". Talk is cheap. Everyone knew Gotenks was in denial so there's no "Boo's Ki is like a lie" to cover this up.
Why wouldn't he at least be the strongest? Generally, new characters are stronger than the last. We know he's not stronger than Goku, because then everyone would be believing in him, we know he's not stronger than Fat Buu, because he got beat up badly. Gotenks can sense ki, Trunks can sense ki, Goten can sense ki. They all know Majin Vegeta's power. It's the process of elimination from the top down. That's always been the most logical approach to Dragonball progression.

Gotenks overhyped himself, but he's way stronger than the Super Saiyan boys, why shouldn't he be stronger than everyone except Fat Buu and beyond. Then you can make the argument he survived where Vegeta did not and so on. Also, where can he get his confidence from if he's weaker than even Vegeta? It doesn't seem to add up to me.

Base Post is a maybe. It's not directly implied, what they imply is Base = Super Boo for the sake of saying "nah jk" after. Base > SSJ is a consequence of the main thing, but the main thing wasn't serious to begin with so why bother?
Base Post should be a definite. Base Post Gotenks matches up with Super Buu's power, which blows Ssj Gotenks out of the water. This is the easiest interpretation of the multiple statements. Just because we don't like them doesn't mean they aren't true.

It doesn't have to be serious to be true. Gag characters can be completely joke oriented and still have insane power. Arale can punch the world in two and easily wreck Ssj Blue Vegeta. We cannot deny Arale's power just because it's a gag. We just don't like gags messing up our serious power level manga we pretend it to be when it's not.

By the way, I'm loving this Trunks/Goten saga, I wish Super was more like this and not so much fighting all the time. Toyo seems to be better with silly stories then serious ones.

AT never thought Base Gotenks was anything special.
Sure he did. It's fusion. He intended to make fusion better than Ssj3. Then wanted to make it way better than Ssj3. He accomplished that. It's right in line with his style. To make the next big thing completely blow out the previous big thing. Perfectly in line with how he thinks.

Also BoG has Goku needing SSJ to fight Kid Boo in image training, and he's stronger than Gotenks by then (though it's possible Gotenks lost his Rosat gains by slacking).
BoG Goku is likely leagues beyond Gotenks and Gohan anyhow. I think Super incorporates the Kid Buu hax into their storytelling. It's the only thing that makes sense and of course it causes all types of chaos trying to blend it altoether. BoG Goku is definitely top dog, he's certainly treated as such.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Why wouldn't he at least be the strongest? Generally, new characters are stronger than the last. We know he's not stronger than Goku, because then everyone would be believing in him, we know he's not stronger than Fat Buu, because he got beat up badly. Gotenks can sense ki, Trunks can sense ki, Goten can sense ki. They all know Majin Vegeta's power. It's the process of elimination from the top down. That's always been the most logical approach to Dragonball progression.

Gotenks overhyped himself, but he's way stronger than the Super Saiyan boys, why shouldn't he be stronger than everyone except Fat Buu and beyond. Then you can make the argument he survived where Vegeta did not and so on. Also, where can he get his confidence from if he's weaker than even Vegeta? It doesn't seem to add up to me.

That's a very arbitrary claim though. It takes what, half the Boo Saga for anyone to surpass SSJ2 Kid Gohan? It's not like Spopovich was beating SSJ2s. It's arguable if Android 19 and 20 ever surpassed Yardrat Goku, and most of Freeza's goons are below Yardrat Goku.

Of course, powers do get surpassed all the time, but they always have a feat and a narrative purpose. Look at Raditz: He shows up and kicks Goku and Piccolo's asses at once. Trunks kills Freeza. These guys are main characters who set the whole thing in motion. Gotenks is just a joke at this stage. This is like saying Base Future Trunks should be close to Suppressed Mecha Freeza.

There's a big difference between SSJ Goten and Majin Vegeta. Confidence isn't rational, have you never seen anyone who's full of shit? Arrogant people don't get their asses handed to them for being rational. Surviving isn't a big deal since Gohan survived and Dabra could've survived if he tried to run away instead of coming back for more.

Base Post should be a definite. Base Post Gotenks matches up with Super Buu's power, which blows Ssj Gotenks out of the water. This is the easiest interpretation of the multiple statements. Just because we don't like them doesn't mean they aren't true.

It doesn't have to be serious to be true. Gag characters can be completely joke oriented and still have insane power. Arale can punch the world in two and easily wreck Ssj Blue Vegeta. We cannot deny Arale's power just because it's a gag. We just don't like gags messing up our serious power level manga we pretend it to be when it's not.

By the way, I'm loving this Trunks/Goten saga, I wish Super was more like this and not so much fighting all the time. Toyo seems to be better with silly stories then serious ones.

You know that's not true man. Be honest. Take a look at the chapters. Piccolo instantly facepalms, he's not even confused for a second. The chapter titles makes fun of Gotenks. It's not a matter of liking, it's a matter of being able to tell what's a joke and what's a real statement.

Arale and Gotenks are different cases though. Arale is a nonsense character, her gag is doing crazy stuff, Gotenks is the butt of the joke. He thinks he's all that, even infects Piccolo with his hype, but then realizes he ain't.

Are you caught up with all the chapters? The boys miss most of the movie events, but when they show up in this month's chapter it's different from the movie. They get some good work.

Sure he did. It's fusion. He intended to make fusion better than Ssj3. Then wanted to make it way better than Ssj3. He accomplished that. It's right in line with his style. To make the next big thing completely blow out the previous big thing. Perfectly in line with how he thinks.

If he did then he made a terrible job, because all Base Gotenks does is get beat around. Base Pre is completely irrelevant to the plot and the power escalation. Base Post would be relevant, but the joke sounds more like he subverted it. Don't forget contradicting expectations is Toriyama's biggest trope, even more than escalation.

BoG Goku is likely leagues beyond Gotenks and Gohan anyhow. I think Super incorporates the Kid Buu hax into their storytelling. It's the only thing that makes sense and of course it causes all types of chaos trying to blend it altoether. BoG Goku is definitely top dog, he's certainly treated as such.

I wouldn't say leagues. In the anime, Ultimate Gohan getting beat up is a big deal. Manga and movie make no such comparison though.
 

FeatsofPower

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The chapter titles makes fun of Gotenks. It's not a matter of liking, it's a matter of being able to tell what's a joke and what's a real statement.
The power levels are in on the jokes as well. There's nothing sacred about them.

Of course, powers do get surpassed all the time, but they always have a feat and a narrative purpose.
Have you seen Super?

This is like saying Base Future Trunks should be close to Suppressed Mecha Freeza.
This is actually more likely the case then you'd probably think. According to Gero calculations as well as Goku's own statements, "Was it non-Super Saiyan Vegeta or non-Super Saiyan Piccolo who killed Freeza?" With a 10x boost, they get way more respectable in those situations.

Remember, it's Base Future Gohan putting the beats on Super Saiyan Kid Trunks. Sure fatigue is most likely a huge factor, but the author specifically has been giving Base Saiyans incredible feats from the beginning and we just pretend it only happened at the end.

Arale and Gotenks are different cases though. Arale is a nonsense character, her gag is doing crazy stuff, Gotenks is the butt of the joke. He thinks he's all that, even infects Piccolo with his hype, but then realizes he ain't.
Have you seen Base Gokan and Base Vegetto's suggested strengths? Base Gotenks being Ssj2/Ssj3 tier seems right in line with all of that. Base Vegetto is stupidly powerful going off of our current logic and the kids have to be wildly strong in their fusion as well. It's all wonky ridiculousness power scaling, just like how all of post Cell Dragonball appears. Have you seen Super? Look at Super's power scaling. If you think Gotenks is strong, wait until you see what they do with Freeza and how they made Base Broly capable of fighting with Ssj God Vegeta/Goku. Gotenks hax is nothing.

He thinks he's all that, even infects Piccolo with his hype, but then realizes he ain't.
Piccolo makes some direct power statements. If this was Ssj Gotenks Post, you wouldn't bat an eye.

Are you caught up with all the chapters?
No, not yet. Just getting back into it now, kind of looking forward to seeing how Toyo handled the Cell stuff.

If he did then he made a terrible job, because all Base Gotenks does is get beat around. Base Pre is completely irrelevant to the plot and the power escalation. Base Post would be relevant, but the joke sounds more like he subverted it. Don't forget contradicting expectations is Toriyama's biggest trope, even more than escalation.
Do you know how strong Base Vegetto is? He's above a fusion Super Saiyan 3! And he's only a Base Saiyan, who is not even stronger than the Super Saiyan boys. How come you don't complain about him?

I wouldn't say leagues. In the anime, Ultimate Gohan getting beat up is a big deal. Manga and movie make no such comparison though.
True, but they are all over the place. Either way, Goku has to be the strongest. Why is the Earth in danger because Goku got two pieced? If Gohan could do the same, like he definitely should be able to do, then Beerus would still have to prove himself.

Beerus defeating Goku easily was all the proof the viewer needed to know everyone was done, because Goku was top dog. It's why Vegeta completely freaks out.

Vegeta is probably second most powerful, but he seems pushed aside by Gohan at times too.

It's a mess in a desperate attempt to make Goku top dog at all costs.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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The power levels are in on the jokes as well. There's nothing sacred about them.

The power levels are the joke. You're just missing the point of the joke by taking them seriously.

Have you seen Super?

Yeah. Everybody gets feats to back up their statements. Gotenks is a statement without any backing up that gets contradicted.

This is actually more likely the case then you'd probably think. According to Gero calculations as well as Goku's own statements, "Was it non-Super Saiyan Vegeta or non-Super Saiyan Piccolo who killed Freeza?" With a 10x boost, they get way more respectable in those situations.

Remember, it's Base Future Gohan putting the beats on Super Saiyan Kid Trunks. Sure fatigue is most likely a huge factor, but the author specifically has been giving Base Saiyans incredible feats from the beginning and we just pretend it only happened at the end.

You're capping man, I know you are. Vegeta and Piccolo are ANTS next to Freeza, regardless of multipliers. Vegeta was ready to let the tears out again in front of everyone.

Gohan vs Trunks isn't meant to make Gohan look strong, it's to make Trunks loss piss weak.

Have you seen Base Gokan and Base Vegetto's suggested strengths? Base Gotenks being Ssj2/Ssj3 tier seems right in line with all of that. Base Vegetto is stupidly powerful going off of our current logic and the kids have to be wildly strong in their fusion as well. It's all wonky ridiculousness power scaling, just like how all of post Cell Dragonball appears. Have you seen Super? Look at Super's power scaling. If you think Gotenks is strong, wait until you see what they do with Freeza and how they made Base Broly capable of fighting with Ssj God Vegeta/Goku. Gotenks hax is nothing.

Gotenks hax doesn't even exist dude. You're taking a bunch of strong guys who have actual feats and saying "See? Why can't this guy who did absolutely nothing be strong too?"

Vegetto is above SSJ3 level by an unknown amount. Could be less than 2x for what we know. SSJ2 level is several times beyond the caliber of the base boys.

Piccolo makes some direct power statements. If this was Ssj Gotenks Post, you wouldn't bat an eye.

Funny, Base Gotenks gets more hype than SSJ Gotenks. You know why?

Do you know how strong Base Vegetto is? He's above a fusion Super Saiyan 3! And he's only a Base Saiyan, who is not even stronger than the Super Saiyan boys. How come you don't complain about him?

I'm not Kaboom dude, take this "boo-hoo you don't like big numbers" talk out of here. I convinced you to use 10x multiplier on SSJ Grade 3. I'm just trying to say that maybe we approached this Gotenks stuff wrong.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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In DBS Gotenks is a character that no one wants around because he's flat out delusional. Not everything you read is meant to be real.

This is Base Gotenks Pre:
0286-011.png

0286-012.png

Gotenks thinks he can kill Majin Boo. Piccolo calls him out, Kuririn wants to believe him because of hype, not power. Where's his confidence coming from? Do you think he would not have jumped to that conclusion if he were below Majin Vegeta? He thinks he's stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but he's not. You don't just downgrade him a bit, because he's not a respectable power at all (Piccolo just calls him incredible while trying to), he's a loser who's being sent to the bottom.

Base Gotenks Post:
0295-011.png

0295-012.png

Piccolo took the Kuririn role here. Sure he mentions power, but he's stating the fact: Base Gotenks Post > Base Gotenks Pre. When Gotenks fails, Piccolo instantly facepalms. He's like "how did I ever think that?", it's not a "Oops, Boo's Ki is a like lie" mistake. There's no "downgrade him to the next highest level", because why would we? The characters are acting like fools, Toriyama is making them act dumb, you're not supposed to be "Oh no Majin Boo is too strong!", you're supposed to go "Lol these guys are retarded".

I always refrain from saying characters are stupid, but they are being portrayed as stupid here. In terms of gag this is closer to Kid Goku's usual cluelesness than to Arale's antics.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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SSJ Gotenks >~ SSJ3 Goku is the fact and we work backwards from it. Bare minimum is >> SSJ Boys. Here, I'll even use some multipliers you might like:

Base Boys: 1
~ SSJ: 10

Goku: 5 (Really tightening those Pui Pui/Shin/Piccolo gaps)
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ2: 200
~ SSJ3: 1,000

Gotenks: 100
~ SSJ: 1,000

10x base boys, above SSJ Goku. Probably FP PC level. Not half bad for a featless guy, is it? Base Gotenks Post >>> Base Gotenks Pre by whatever amount. Probably 2x.

Of course, nothing wrong with higher placements, but it's about as supported as Kuririn > 100% Freeza or BS Base Goku > CG SSJ Goku.
 
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FeatsofPower

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And what about the Base Gotenks Post > Majin Buu suggestion made by Piccolo during the BoG saga in the anime?
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Could be the case, but still don't think it's any different from Videl suggesting Piccolo > Gotenks in the next scene.

Not really making an argument here, but it's really weird how Gotenks got dismissed without even transforming.
 
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