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Ngannou vs Jones
- Thread starter Warmmedown
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Damn, that would be a fantastic match. I'd say Jones until seeing Ngannou's performance vs Fury. The fact he actually went toe to toe with Fury in boxing only, dropped him once (twice if you count that one Fury smartly disguised into a slip) and arguably won the fight (imo it was handled to Fury because he's the champion and to save the hype of his match vs Usiky) means he's just unbelievable.
In a stand up fight Jones would be in the disadvantage, no doubt about that, despite his more versatile muay thai style with kicks and elbows... But Ngannou is just a tank, the man has a resilience beyond belief and a nuclear punch, which would have likely KO'd Fury were it with UFC gloves. Jones would need to take it to the ground. I think he can still stand up somewhat with his oblique kicks and grappling.
Ngannou is obviously disadvantaged in the ground... But he is no slouch in the ground either, he has proved to make big advancements defending from Miocic's takedown attempt and clearly outperforming Gane using wrestling when his knees were injured... And he kept training it. Obviously that doesn't compare with someone like Jones who has grappled and wrestled almost his entire life and was being coached by Gordon Ryan, but since Ngannou kept training wrestling, and has monstrous physical strength, never doubt this man's abilities in avoiding takedowns and holding Jone's impetus in it.
One thing that may be decisive is Ngannou being more of a natural heavyweight, his muscles seem more well built and more natural and imposing, while Jones has to fat up a little.
It'd be a hell of a match and could go either way, but still, if Jones is in good shape, well prepared for the battle and does it still when both are under 40, as a final GOAT battle, I'd favor Jon Jones. I think his complete mma skillset would give him the advantage vs Francis, but it's tough to choose. It'd be a match I'd be really willing to occur, and it'd the true battle of the baddest imo. I'd slight favor and pick Jones, but it's still uncertain as fuck. One momentum from Ngannou and a well connected blow, as well as a good and successful takedown defense could put Jones in huge problems. I'd say Jones 51/49, but damn, it'd be a hell of a match. Rooting for Jones to recover well and quick, defeat Miocic, maybe do some successful belt defense vs Pavlovich or Aspinall (which would still be a hell of a challenge to him... But I think a well prepared Jones can really take them out) and do one final one vs Ngannou. Or after Miocic do one vs Ngannou already.
Thing is, despite having more or less the same age, Ngannou seems to be in a better shape I think, he seems to me with best physical overall than Jones. But dunno, DC said Jones was kinda overloading himself with this new body of him which he isn't that used to, which led to the injury, and that Jones was wrestling harder before than the one moment which made him injured, which may hint at that body not being so ideal to Jones... I think this extra weight works very well for a solid take down, but Jones seems closer to me to have a better performance in a midterm between 93kg and 120kg, like 105kg or so. But still, solid mass would still be needed to take down and wrestle with a tank like Ngannou more easily and guarantee this advantage side.
Really tough to say overall, I'm still picking a well in-shape and prepared Jones, but still with many doubts overall.
In a stand up fight Jones would be in the disadvantage, no doubt about that, despite his more versatile muay thai style with kicks and elbows... But Ngannou is just a tank, the man has a resilience beyond belief and a nuclear punch, which would have likely KO'd Fury were it with UFC gloves. Jones would need to take it to the ground. I think he can still stand up somewhat with his oblique kicks and grappling.
Ngannou is obviously disadvantaged in the ground... But he is no slouch in the ground either, he has proved to make big advancements defending from Miocic's takedown attempt and clearly outperforming Gane using wrestling when his knees were injured... And he kept training it. Obviously that doesn't compare with someone like Jones who has grappled and wrestled almost his entire life and was being coached by Gordon Ryan, but since Ngannou kept training wrestling, and has monstrous physical strength, never doubt this man's abilities in avoiding takedowns and holding Jone's impetus in it.
One thing that may be decisive is Ngannou being more of a natural heavyweight, his muscles seem more well built and more natural and imposing, while Jones has to fat up a little.
It'd be a hell of a match and could go either way, but still, if Jones is in good shape, well prepared for the battle and does it still when both are under 40, as a final GOAT battle, I'd favor Jon Jones. I think his complete mma skillset would give him the advantage vs Francis, but it's tough to choose. It'd be a match I'd be really willing to occur, and it'd the true battle of the baddest imo. I'd slight favor and pick Jones, but it's still uncertain as fuck. One momentum from Ngannou and a well connected blow, as well as a good and successful takedown defense could put Jones in huge problems. I'd say Jones 51/49, but damn, it'd be a hell of a match. Rooting for Jones to recover well and quick, defeat Miocic, maybe do some successful belt defense vs Pavlovich or Aspinall (which would still be a hell of a challenge to him... But I think a well prepared Jones can really take them out) and do one final one vs Ngannou. Or after Miocic do one vs Ngannou already.
Thing is, despite having more or less the same age, Ngannou seems to be in a better shape I think, he seems to me with best physical overall than Jones. But dunno, DC said Jones was kinda overloading himself with this new body of him which he isn't that used to, which led to the injury, and that Jones was wrestling harder before than the one moment which made him injured, which may hint at that body not being so ideal to Jones... I think this extra weight works very well for a solid take down, but Jones seems closer to me to have a better performance in a midterm between 93kg and 120kg, like 105kg or so. But still, solid mass would still be needed to take down and wrestle with a tank like Ngannou more easily and guarantee this advantage side.
Really tough to say overall, I'm still picking a well in-shape and prepared Jones, but still with many doubts overall.
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Call Dana. UFC can make it happen once Jones comes back from injury....nothing in the contracts stopping a cross-promotional fight.
Idek who else Ngannou can fight that would be a big fight.
Yeh Ngannou is naturally huge. 270lbs and still very lean. Jones is lighter I'm pretty sure. Being lighter can mean more speed and we didn't get to see Jones much at HW yet because he defeated Gane so easily, but I doubt he's particularly fast for a HW. He wasn't very fast at LHW any more. Ngannou has a good gas tank, but maybe he could be pushed to tiredness due to having so much muscle.
Ngannou I think would focus on stopping the takedown, so the ground grappling wouldn't matter so much. Ngannou on the ground is still a big question mark though.
About the Fury fight - I'd say a big part of his success there was:
1. Ngannou is from MMA and is the better wrestler and more experienced in the clinch than boxers, so he easily denied Fury the clinch:
-Ngannou knows grip-fighting and framing from wrestling/BJJ/muay thai. This aren't things that modern boxers are good at
-Some of Fury's boxing usually involves punching into the clinch. But against Ngannou he lost this offensive path.
-Because Fury couldn't use the clinch to exit after attacking, Fury had to be more tentative with allowing Ngannou into range because he couldn't exit danger so easily.
-Because Fury had to rely on his legs to exit, he had to be more careful about not getting tired
-Because Fury couldn't clinch, he had to be punching more often, whereas normally he likes to use the clinch to take a break
-Fury likes to tire opponents by leaning on them in the clinch (he often does a headlock and keeps them bent down near his hip, which tires the back and limits breathing), to make a gap between the tiredness levels of him and his opponent. He couldn't do that against Ngannou, because Fury won the clinch entry battle and because even when Fury won the clinch entry battle and tried to push Ngannou's head down to Fury's hip (like he often did against Wilder), Ngannou came around behind Fury so that Ngannou could have an upright posture, instead of having Fury's weight keeping him bent down.
-Ngannou won the clinches and actually held Fury downwards somtimes, tiring out Fury.
2. Ngannou is from MMA where stance-switching is more common, so he's used to stance-switching and fighting against both stances:
-When Fury had trouble he tried switching to southpaw, which would have changed the offense and defence that Ngannou needed
-But when Fury switched, Ngannou also switched, which returned the matchup to a closed stance one (southpaw vs southpaw or orthodox vs orthodox), so Ngannou could carry on using the same closed-stance tactics (because he's familiar with moving int southpaw too)
So Ngannou did largely outbox Fury, but a lot of what gave him success wouldn't be as easy against Jon Jones, imo.
Idek who else Ngannou can fight that would be a big fight.
Yeh Ngannou is naturally huge. 270lbs and still very lean. Jones is lighter I'm pretty sure. Being lighter can mean more speed and we didn't get to see Jones much at HW yet because he defeated Gane so easily, but I doubt he's particularly fast for a HW. He wasn't very fast at LHW any more. Ngannou has a good gas tank, but maybe he could be pushed to tiredness due to having so much muscle.
Ngannou I think would focus on stopping the takedown, so the ground grappling wouldn't matter so much. Ngannou on the ground is still a big question mark though.
About the Fury fight - I'd say a big part of his success there was:
1. Ngannou is from MMA and is the better wrestler and more experienced in the clinch than boxers, so he easily denied Fury the clinch:
-Ngannou knows grip-fighting and framing from wrestling/BJJ/muay thai. This aren't things that modern boxers are good at
-Some of Fury's boxing usually involves punching into the clinch. But against Ngannou he lost this offensive path.
-Because Fury couldn't use the clinch to exit after attacking, Fury had to be more tentative with allowing Ngannou into range because he couldn't exit danger so easily.
-Because Fury had to rely on his legs to exit, he had to be more careful about not getting tired
-Because Fury couldn't clinch, he had to be punching more often, whereas normally he likes to use the clinch to take a break
-Fury likes to tire opponents by leaning on them in the clinch (he often does a headlock and keeps them bent down near his hip, which tires the back and limits breathing), to make a gap between the tiredness levels of him and his opponent. He couldn't do that against Ngannou, because Fury won the clinch entry battle and because even when Fury won the clinch entry battle and tried to push Ngannou's head down to Fury's hip (like he often did against Wilder), Ngannou came around behind Fury so that Ngannou could have an upright posture, instead of having Fury's weight keeping him bent down.
-Ngannou won the clinches and actually held Fury downwards somtimes, tiring out Fury.
2. Ngannou is from MMA where stance-switching is more common, so he's used to stance-switching and fighting against both stances:
-When Fury had trouble he tried switching to southpaw, which would have changed the offense and defence that Ngannou needed
-But when Fury switched, Ngannou also switched, which returned the matchup to a closed stance one (southpaw vs southpaw or orthodox vs orthodox), so Ngannou could carry on using the same closed-stance tactics (because he's familiar with moving int southpaw too)
So Ngannou did largely outbox Fury, but a lot of what gave him success wouldn't be as easy against Jon Jones, imo.
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Yesh I agree that the clinch which Fury largely used to tire opponents out was decisive in how good he looked. He's a very good boxer ofc, but he has used many times this tactic to tire opponents who weren't that used to clinching and were less heaby than him. Against Ngannou though, who is a muscle person, a tank and used to clinch, this strategy didn't work. There was even a time in which Ngannou shureged off Fury's clinch and threw him against the hopes and and Fury was almost down. He looked so defenseless there lol, if it were an all out battle he wouldn't last 2 round, and that's giving him credit. Ngannou is a monster.
Yeah but still outboxing a heavyweight boxer who's the champion and pressuring him a lot shows to me Jones would just need to be extremely careful in a stand up fight. It wouldn't be simply avoiding a punch, it'd nbe avoiding a good well connected punch from someone who is also very skilled standing up. But I think he could hold it long enough with kicks, distance management and reach advantage to create a clinch and grappling situation. Ngannou's take down defense looked very solid vs Miocic 2nd fight and he has stated to have kept working on it since then and still later on. Thing is, wrestling needs a lot of time to master, but Jones has found problems already in applying wrestling and takedowns to opponents like Gustaffson 1st fight and Reyes, so it could be very well possible an already basic knowledgeable Ngannou in wrestling plus his momstrous physical ability could negate this part from Jones.
Still though, Jones wrestling is on another level. I think if he manages a solid take down with time left on the round, Ngannou could even survive but would take some big punishment.
Idk tho, Ngannou seemed so better than Miocic the 2nd fight. Jones was looking for a fight against an older Miocic to finish his career, but Ngannou looked as dominant as it gets against an older Miocic. He has improved so much ever since his first loss to Miocic that he made Miocic seems almost defenseless in their 2nd bout against an improved Ngannou. Successfully avoided Miocic's take down, managed to get behind Miocic, throw him to the ground, land some big punches, and was still confident enough to try to take Miocic down once. And then every close exchange it seemed like he couldn't even faze Ngannou as Ngannou seemed so imponent physically and technically.
Ngannou landed a solid jab which threw Miocic heavily against the ties, he then clinched and landed heavy shots, Miocic was still resilient and brave enough he could keep somewhat composed, advance and land a solid counter hook to Ngannou, so he advanced thinking he got Ngannou hurt. But Ngannou is so much of a tank he didn't even took a step back and as soon as he saw Miocic advancing, he landed a solid left hand which just dismantled Miocic. Then he went for (a needless and nasty as Miocic was already out cold) a final blow which may have taken one year from Stipe's life. That was as nasty as it got. Complete domination.
I dunno honestly it'd be tough either way. I'd still bet on Jones.
Yeah but still outboxing a heavyweight boxer who's the champion and pressuring him a lot shows to me Jones would just need to be extremely careful in a stand up fight. It wouldn't be simply avoiding a punch, it'd nbe avoiding a good well connected punch from someone who is also very skilled standing up. But I think he could hold it long enough with kicks, distance management and reach advantage to create a clinch and grappling situation. Ngannou's take down defense looked very solid vs Miocic 2nd fight and he has stated to have kept working on it since then and still later on. Thing is, wrestling needs a lot of time to master, but Jones has found problems already in applying wrestling and takedowns to opponents like Gustaffson 1st fight and Reyes, so it could be very well possible an already basic knowledgeable Ngannou in wrestling plus his momstrous physical ability could negate this part from Jones.
Still though, Jones wrestling is on another level. I think if he manages a solid take down with time left on the round, Ngannou could even survive but would take some big punishment.
Idk tho, Ngannou seemed so better than Miocic the 2nd fight. Jones was looking for a fight against an older Miocic to finish his career, but Ngannou looked as dominant as it gets against an older Miocic. He has improved so much ever since his first loss to Miocic that he made Miocic seems almost defenseless in their 2nd bout against an improved Ngannou. Successfully avoided Miocic's take down, managed to get behind Miocic, throw him to the ground, land some big punches, and was still confident enough to try to take Miocic down once. And then every close exchange it seemed like he couldn't even faze Ngannou as Ngannou seemed so imponent physically and technically.
Ngannou landed a solid jab which threw Miocic heavily against the ties, he then clinched and landed heavy shots, Miocic was still resilient and brave enough he could keep somewhat composed, advance and land a solid counter hook to Ngannou, so he advanced thinking he got Ngannou hurt. But Ngannou is so much of a tank he didn't even took a step back and as soon as he saw Miocic advancing, he landed a solid left hand which just dismantled Miocic. Then he went for (a needless and nasty as Miocic was already out cold) a final blow which may have taken one year from Stipe's life. That was as nasty as it got. Complete domination.
I dunno honestly it'd be tough either way. I'd still bet on Jones.
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As impressive as Ngannou was against Fury, not much has changed. Jones can't stand with Ngannou and Ngannou cannot wrestle with Jones. A man who took Ngannou to the brink was instantly submitted. Jones made quick work out of someone who Francis struggled with.
Jones is one of the most dangerous grapplers of all time. It's a striker vs grappler match. If Jones comes in to wrestle and is adamant about it as he was with Gane, it's going to come down to luck for Francis. Jones prepares insanely well for his opponents so I'm going to be with Jones in a 70/30 favor. Jones is the GOAT, Francis is still very, very green to the grappling world, and a lifetime of grappling cannot be surpassed in such a short time.
Jones is one of the most dangerous grapplers of all time. It's a striker vs grappler match. If Jones comes in to wrestle and is adamant about it as he was with Gane, it's going to come down to luck for Francis. Jones prepares insanely well for his opponents so I'm going to be with Jones in a 70/30 favor. Jones is the GOAT, Francis is still very, very green to the grappling world, and a lifetime of grappling cannot be surpassed in such a short time.
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In that fight, Ngannou was with his knees messed up vs Gane, that's why he couldn't stand up with him properly and it's said he could have had an even better performance in the ground vs Gane weren't for his knees pretty messed during the fight.
Wrestling is an art and someone who has done it for 6 years or so still doesn't compare with someone who has done it their entire career so yeah, Jones is way ahead there, but Ngannou has improved his takedown defense a lot as seen by him completely nullifying Miocic's the 2nd fight and even pounding him in the ground. There Nagnnou hadn't any injuries unlike vs Gane and performed the best he could... And Miocic seemed defenseless vs Ngannou, looked like he was facing a tank. Tbh, Jones was hyping up the fight calling Miocic the GOAT and a worth fight to solidify his career, also making a big deal of dominating Miocic, while an improved and non-injured Ngannou destroyed a younger Miocic in a nasty way. Jones has elite wrestling, but guys with good take down defenses, specially those as big as him, have successfully prevented them, like Gus 1st fight and Reyes. Ngannou, even though not on the same wrestling level as Jones, has shown himself to learn and improved very, very quickly and Usman really complimented his improvements in the wrestling... So as physically imposing as he is, I don't doubt he could stop Jones' takedowns.
It'd be a hell of a fight... I'd still say 51/49 Jones, but Ngannou is the one who makes me unsure to say Jon Jones is the GOAT fighter. Accomplishments wise sure, but in terms of overall abilities against current well rounded Ngannou... Dunno, really tough to say... Tho I still bet on Jones in a mma fight, always.
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It’s not about stopping takedowns. Anyone can stop takedowns, but can you stop someone’s non-stop grappling attempts? Remember how Cain beat JDS? He barely was able to get him down but grapplers will drag you into a wrestling war and drown you. Wrestling is the ultimate sport of attrition. You don’t strike with Francis. Even the best boxer of this generation learned that there is a price to pay. Jones no doubt will come to wrestle first and wrestle early.
It’s a classic grappler vs striker scenario. Jones cannot strike with Francis. Francis cannot wrestle with Jones.
Sure, Francis will no doubt stop some takedowns. Can he stop Jones from making it a wrestling match for 5 rounds is the real question.
I think Jones makes Francis look like an amateur, I don’t see how it could possibly be a close match. Stipe is not a renown grappler in MMA. He has never relied on it other than the Francis fight, Jones is on a completely different level than Stipe.
Jones was about to put a wrestling clinic on Stipe in their fight. We can’t compare the two.
It’s a classic grappler vs striker scenario. Jones cannot strike with Francis. Francis cannot wrestle with Jones.
Sure, Francis will no doubt stop some takedowns. Can he stop Jones from making it a wrestling match for 5 rounds is the real question.
I think Jones makes Francis look like an amateur, I don’t see how it could possibly be a close match. Stipe is not a renown grappler in MMA. He has never relied on it other than the Francis fight, Jones is on a completely different level than Stipe.
Jones was about to put a wrestling clinic on Stipe in their fight. We can’t compare the two.
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Can Jones withstand getting punched real hard by Francis quite a few times? Because he took solid punishment from Gus and solid hits from Reyes when they managed to avoid his takedowns... Taking punches from Ngannou who's a heavyweight and one of the hardest hitters is another matter entirely... Ofc he has good resistance, but he hasn't proved that against a punch monster like Ngannou. It's all open.
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You can't make it a wrestling match without taking some heavy shots tho. Heavy shots from Ngannou can be fatal for Jones... He tried making it a wrestling match sometimes vs Gus but Gus got some good hit in. Same with Reyes. Even assuming Jones was kinda bad in those days, even taking his fight vw Glover Teixeira, in which he dragged that with his wrestling skills, you could clearly see Glover connected some good punches and Jones had the huge reach advantage there to minimize it... Not so much vs Ngannou, whose punching power is just on another level. Even Jones says it'd be a huge challenge for him, he definitely doesn't think Ngannou as someone who he can treat as an amateur.
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Jones focused on boxing for his first fight with Gus.Egos play a huge factor in this game. LHW Jones was more of a kickboxer with wrestling ability, HW Jones is all too aware of the threats of striking at HW while also aware of the incredible skill disparity at HW. HW is the most unskilled division, these guys pale in comparison.
When Jon Jones fights more like Chael Sonnen and less like Conor McGregro, we are talking a whole new fighter.
Jones has never come to wrestle like he came to wrestle against Gane. We have a whole new version of Jones now.
When Jon Jones fights more like Chael Sonnen and less like Conor McGregro, we are talking a whole new fighter.
Jones has never come to wrestle like he came to wrestle against Gane. We have a whole new version of Jones now.
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No, Jones tried many takedowns vs Gus. He clearly didn't want the fight to be a kickboxing one many times... He was forced into this kind of battle because Gus managed to stop his takedowns... He visciously tried taking him down and making it a wrestling battle many times... He was forced to fight using his muay thai, which deservedly gave him the win at the end because he's a very good standup fighter too and damaged Gus massively with elbows. Against Ngannou tho, if he can drag the battle to a kickboxing one like Gus did, we can't say Jones will have the resistance to withstand many punches. It was him not being able to play his ground game the way he wanted that forced him to make a Muay Thai battle...
And one thing to take into account is that Francis is more of a natural heavyweight... That body is more natural to him... Jones needs to force up fatting up a little to reach that weight. DC said the way Jones injured when wrestling is because he isn't used to that heavy strain with that kind of huge body, and that when he was lighter, like 105kg or so, he'd wrestle even harder, but the body one is used to plays a role in injuries when overstressed. So Francis has a more typical heavyweight body and likely can operate closer to his 100% with that kind of body... While Jones needs to put in more pressure to be at that weight.
And one thing to take into account is that Francis is more of a natural heavyweight... That body is more natural to him... Jones needs to force up fatting up a little to reach that weight. DC said the way Jones injured when wrestling is because he isn't used to that heavy strain with that kind of huge body, and that when he was lighter, like 105kg or so, he'd wrestle even harder, but the body one is used to plays a role in injuries when overstressed. So Francis has a more typical heavyweight body and likely can operate closer to his 100% with that kind of body... While Jones needs to put in more pressure to be at that weight.
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I meant for training. Koscheck didn’t train any wrestling for GSP1, thinking he was a vastly superior wrestler, he didn’t see the need for it. For the second fight Koscheck trained wrestling and the result was completely different.
He can’t, that’s the point. Gus was only able to do so because of Jones lack of wrestling training preparing for Gus. Jones is training mostly grappling for this part of his career. The Heavyweights are the least skilled grapplers of all divisions. It’s a recipe for disaster.
I remember DC saying Francis wrestling has improved so much that he doesn’t a road for victory for himself, but I don’t know. DC likes to hype people up too.
We have one of the best grapplers in the history of the sport who’s dedicated to implementing a wrestling heavy game plan.
Against a guy who’s been hurt and training boxing for the last few years. Knee injuries mean you can’t train much wrestling.
Until Francis proves he can hang with elite grappling I’m doubtful he can.
Stipe is a solid wrestler no doubt, but to think his offensive wrestling is on the same level as Jones doesn’t sit right with me as of now.
When we get Jones vs Stipe we will see who’s truly the better grappler and then we can deduce from there.
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Ofc, but Jones trained for the 2nd fight vs Gus... And he still couldn't take him down immediately. The fact he had to hurt Gus' leg with a powerful leg kick and then go to his leg means there're some ppl he can't take down easily. And Francis could be one of them. Gane sucks in the ground game, he was outperformed by Ngannou in the ground when Ngannou had his knee hurt. He most likely can't do that to Ngannou, dragging him down immediately, at all. Ngannou's knees are better now, and Stipe is a very solid skilled guy for HW. He's really skilled. The fact Ngannou improved so much from going from being dominated by Stipe in the 1st fight to be basically unfazed by Stipe in the 2nd fight, stopping the takedown and not even being fazed when Stipe got him with an elbow, countering that with a beautiful left hook that put Stipe out means Ngannou is a very fast learner. The guy has an absurd potential for improvement. Much the same way Jones was mostly a wrestler and improved his striking so much to compete in it with guys who had been doing it since kids, it's the same crazy talent for Ngannou...
... And honestly if Usman and DC both complimented Ngannou's wrestling skills, I wouldn't doubt it at all. Usman is a very solid wrestler and DC is one of the best wrestlers in UFC, so if they say that, I don't doubt that at all. Not Jones' level, ofc... but you don't need to be the best wrestler to win. Ngannou fought a younger Miocic too and completely destroyed him. Jones is hyping up dominating Stipe who's clearly past his prime. Idk, I think Jones can run through all of HW but Ngannou is the unsure stone. After good improvements in wrestling to the point he can't be ragdolled easily and his massive punching advantage, mixed with his huge resistance and huge punching power, if there is someone who can defeat Jones, it's definitely him. Jones knows Ngannou's is a hell of a match too. He said guys like Aspinall and Pavlovich would already be a big challenge for him now, Ngannou is in a level further them still. I don't vote against Jones, but I'm telling you, it's very open. If Jones had made the process to bulk up earlier then yeah, but 36 is already old for a fighter and in Jones' case, he doesn't have a typical 120kg body, he has to put in weight for that. Ngannou is already a natural heavyweight and can be as muscular as fuck. I think Jones sees Ngannou too as the one who could definitely take him down. Not that he would, but that his victory would be far from certain.
... And honestly if Usman and DC both complimented Ngannou's wrestling skills, I wouldn't doubt it at all. Usman is a very solid wrestler and DC is one of the best wrestlers in UFC, so if they say that, I don't doubt that at all. Not Jones' level, ofc... but you don't need to be the best wrestler to win. Ngannou fought a younger Miocic too and completely destroyed him. Jones is hyping up dominating Stipe who's clearly past his prime. Idk, I think Jones can run through all of HW but Ngannou is the unsure stone. After good improvements in wrestling to the point he can't be ragdolled easily and his massive punching advantage, mixed with his huge resistance and huge punching power, if there is someone who can defeat Jones, it's definitely him. Jones knows Ngannou's is a hell of a match too. He said guys like Aspinall and Pavlovich would already be a big challenge for him now, Ngannou is in a level further them still. I don't vote against Jones, but I'm telling you, it's very open. If Jones had made the process to bulk up earlier then yeah, but 36 is already old for a fighter and in Jones' case, he doesn't have a typical 120kg body, he has to put in weight for that. Ngannou is already a natural heavyweight and can be as muscular as fuck. I think Jones sees Ngannou too as the one who could definitely take him down. Not that he would, but that his victory would be far from certain.
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He took Gus down and dominated. Also, the need to take him down is nowhere near the need to take Francis down. And Gus is a far more experienced wrestler than Francis is. Not sure if you know but Gus lost to Phil Davis, one of the best wrestlers in MMA, and then trained for many years with him because of that lost. Gus is a true MMA artist, whereas I don't think Francis has nearly the experience Gus does. And even Gus couldn't stop it. Don't forget that Gus has taken down both Jones and DC. He's a far better wrestler than you give him credit for.
As I said, it might be true, or it might just be them hyping him up. DC gets paid to hype up fighters, Usman is one of his best friends.
Stipe was already past his prime when he lost.
All politics, Jones knows Stipe is washed.
That Sergei dude is a beast, I don't know if Jones wants any of that.
Agreed, it wouldn't be easy I don't think. But I do think Jones wins at least 70% of the time. Jones has too much of a grappling advantage. Jones might turn into the HW GSP when forced to face guys like this. Francis swings wild at times, if someone is looking to duck under for a double leg, he can easily be taken down. Remember, your fear of wrestling completely changes how you strike. Derrick Lewis put some fear into Francis because of his striking and changed how Francis would strike. Jones can have a similar impact on Francis due to the threat of the takedown.
Agreed.
Well I am giving Jones a 30% chance at losing. That's quite high. Francis is not going to be able to hold Jones down if he does take him down so it doesn't matter. You don't seem to be considering cardio at all I see. Jones only needs to make it a wrestling match for 2 rounds, if he survives 2 rounds and forces Francis to wrestle hard the whole time, Jones can easily win the last 3. Francis cannot handle being brought into deep water in such a taxing style of fighting.
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Gus has only taken Jones down by dropping him standing, or because Jones was careless since he knew Gus wouldn't want a wrestling battle. He didn't engage in wrestling with neither when he dropped them. DC and Jones likely got careless on this part due to their confidence Gus wouldn't take action after the takedown.
Gus is a good wrestler, but so is Stipe. I can't really say for sure Gus is better than Miocic in wrestling, which I don't think he is, and neither can you. Francis could negate Miocic's wrestling the 2nd match, and punch him a few times in the ground still. He was so confident he even tried taking Stipe down, tho he immediately avoided that. Stipe was what, Jones' age back then... And he was a beast when younger, beat DC twice.
Pavlovich is a beast but Ngannou is even more of a beast than Pavlovich, so by saying Jones wants none of that, what are you implying? Or are you saying Pavlovich >> Ngannou? That's nonsense as far as accomplishments go.
Plus, the Derrick Lewis fight was before Ngannou's noticeable improvement. And you can't really judge whether he has the resistance to fight being pressured constantly, all ppl were saying he hadn't the cardio to go all rounds vs Fury in boxing and he finished the fight in an impressive fashion and not even that tired... Which is amazing, shows he has an amazing cardio.
It was nice that when both Jones and Ngannou appeared in front of each other, Jones asserted he'll be always the king, until the day he dies... But he seemed a little nervous, hesitant. Ofc, fear is a good motivator and he has felt it before having nightmares vs Rampage, but this one felt a little different to me, this is already a way more experienced Jones, I think he knew Ngannou was one who was a huge threat to his legacy in a fight... He fears defeat but he many times is confident enough to show his cockiness and superiority vs big and huge powerful opponents. He saying to DC, who had never lost a round, that there was nothing DC could do to stop him, that every training he put up would be the waste of his life, and that he'd use everything to win the fight was wild... While fearing defeat, he knew he had everything to take out DC. And he has shown this through most of his opponents. With Ngannou's, it feels different. He isn't that relaxed, provocative and cocky. Even when Dana was planning Jones to fight Ngannou 3 years ago Jones was saying he wanted a huge paying because he knew there was a solid chance of Ngannou breaking his jaw. And Joe Rogan, a huge Jones fan and who knows him and the fighters very well, was doubtful about Jones vs Ngannou... He said Jones had everything but stepping against Ngannou feels different, that Ngannou's big improvement in the ground game through working with his new team plus his refined techniques with his huge innate tenacity, which came from labor work since he was a kid and genetics, made him say Ngannou was just someone made of a different material and that everything could happen in a Jones vs Francis fight. He said that now Ngannou knows and worked hard in wrestling and gets the basics to hang in there for a while and has a punch literally comparable to a solid hammer pressure, literally, finishing by saying that he was just a beast between beasts.
Jones doesn't deny that and didn't want desperately to have a match vs Ngannou as if he were overflowing with confidence, he knew how risky it was. He would fight ofc, but he knew it's a hell of a challenge. Jones said recently that a fight vs Ngannou is bound to happen anyway in the future and that the UFC will do the right thing as the true clash of titans, and left it at that... No words from him saying he'll smack Ngannou and prove as the best ever... He doesn't say those things regarding Ngannou. He knows it's very well open.
@FeatsofPower
Gus is a good wrestler, but so is Stipe. I can't really say for sure Gus is better than Miocic in wrestling, which I don't think he is, and neither can you. Francis could negate Miocic's wrestling the 2nd match, and punch him a few times in the ground still. He was so confident he even tried taking Stipe down, tho he immediately avoided that. Stipe was what, Jones' age back then... And he was a beast when younger, beat DC twice.
Pavlovich is a beast but Ngannou is even more of a beast than Pavlovich, so by saying Jones wants none of that, what are you implying? Or are you saying Pavlovich >> Ngannou? That's nonsense as far as accomplishments go.
Plus, the Derrick Lewis fight was before Ngannou's noticeable improvement. And you can't really judge whether he has the resistance to fight being pressured constantly, all ppl were saying he hadn't the cardio to go all rounds vs Fury in boxing and he finished the fight in an impressive fashion and not even that tired... Which is amazing, shows he has an amazing cardio.
It was nice that when both Jones and Ngannou appeared in front of each other, Jones asserted he'll be always the king, until the day he dies... But he seemed a little nervous, hesitant. Ofc, fear is a good motivator and he has felt it before having nightmares vs Rampage, but this one felt a little different to me, this is already a way more experienced Jones, I think he knew Ngannou was one who was a huge threat to his legacy in a fight... He fears defeat but he many times is confident enough to show his cockiness and superiority vs big and huge powerful opponents. He saying to DC, who had never lost a round, that there was nothing DC could do to stop him, that every training he put up would be the waste of his life, and that he'd use everything to win the fight was wild... While fearing defeat, he knew he had everything to take out DC. And he has shown this through most of his opponents. With Ngannou's, it feels different. He isn't that relaxed, provocative and cocky. Even when Dana was planning Jones to fight Ngannou 3 years ago Jones was saying he wanted a huge paying because he knew there was a solid chance of Ngannou breaking his jaw. And Joe Rogan, a huge Jones fan and who knows him and the fighters very well, was doubtful about Jones vs Ngannou... He said Jones had everything but stepping against Ngannou feels different, that Ngannou's big improvement in the ground game through working with his new team plus his refined techniques with his huge innate tenacity, which came from labor work since he was a kid and genetics, made him say Ngannou was just someone made of a different material and that everything could happen in a Jones vs Francis fight. He said that now Ngannou knows and worked hard in wrestling and gets the basics to hang in there for a while and has a punch literally comparable to a solid hammer pressure, literally, finishing by saying that he was just a beast between beasts.
Jones doesn't deny that and didn't want desperately to have a match vs Ngannou as if he were overflowing with confidence, he knew how risky it was. He would fight ofc, but he knew it's a hell of a challenge. Jones said recently that a fight vs Ngannou is bound to happen anyway in the future and that the UFC will do the right thing as the true clash of titans, and left it at that... No words from him saying he'll smack Ngannou and prove as the best ever... He doesn't say those things regarding Ngannou. He knows it's very well open.
@FeatsofPower
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This is wrong. Gus legit took down both of them from what I remember. Gus has legit skills man, don't doubt him. Look into who Phil Davis is. Gus trained with one of the best. For YEARS.
Wrestling has two sides. Offense and defense. I'm not saying Gus is an elite wrestler, I'm saying a fully wrestle trained Jones who intends to wrestle is the most dangerous Jones we have ever seen.
Exactly. Rampage says the guys he hate to fight the most is the ones who are scared, that they get an extra boost of adrenaline. Francis is as scary as they come. That fear will ensure Jones is at his best. I don't think Francis fears Jon and I think Jon fears Francis.
Well, like I've said. It would be a war. It wouldn't be easy. But I think as it stands right now, I'm going with the GOAT 7/10. That doesn't mean that's 7 easy wins out of 10. A few for sure, but I think he will have to weather the storm. But who knows, Francis might just be that powerful that Jon can't do what he wants and Jon gets wrecked. Definitely possible.
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But like I said, Gus didn't attempt anything with them on the ground... Because he knew he wouldn't do well engaging in a wrestling battle. Jones didn't expect Gus would take him down so he undestandably got more careless with his defense. I'm not denying Gus' level, but whoever Jones fought who he knew was good in wrestling or Jiu Jitsu, he could on point stop their takedowns... For instance, vs DC... Or vs Glover Teixeira. Gus was overall well rounded but the focus of his fight was on his stand up game. And training for years is ok, but again, weren't you saying training for years doesn't compare to someone who has done it their lives and are a master in it? It meams those guys can learn in years doing it... Ngannou has a very good team, equipped with good wrestlers and he has said to havw trained and honed it a lot, being complimented by DC and Usman. There's no reason for them to lie here since they knew Ngannou would have to prove that in a fight. Why hype up someone's wrestling when he knows Ngannou has weak abilities on it? If he were hyping it up knowing he'd be fighting and testing that... It shows legitimacy in his praise. Like in the last fight, DC praises Poatan a lot, but he criticized the way he fights as leaving too exposed for someone with a right timing to apply a a takedown.
Yeah fear is a good motivator, but Jones still gets to apply his usual confidence and invincible aura against those past monsters. Athough he fears, he absolutely wanted to show to the opponent his victory was 100%... He isn't that cocy and that sure vs Ngannou. It's like he knows this one is on a level that in a titans duel, showing overwhelming confidence can't come naturally.
Jones has already gotten into the 2nd match vs Gus with wrestling as the main weapon. His coach even said in-between round Jones was rushing the take down too much, that he should work on preparing things a little better in the stand up and then go for a take down... And in fact after Gus leg hurt badly, Jones went for that leg. I can't doubt at all that Ngannou successfully stops some or many of Jones take downs.
@Power Level Guy
Yeah fear is a good motivator, but Jones still gets to apply his usual confidence and invincible aura against those past monsters. Athough he fears, he absolutely wanted to show to the opponent his victory was 100%... He isn't that cocy and that sure vs Ngannou. It's like he knows this one is on a level that in a titans duel, showing overwhelming confidence can't come naturally.
Jones has already gotten into the 2nd match vs Gus with wrestling as the main weapon. His coach even said in-between round Jones was rushing the take down too much, that he should work on preparing things a little better in the stand up and then go for a take down... And in fact after Gus leg hurt badly, Jones went for that leg. I can't doubt at all that Ngannou successfully stops some or many of Jones take downs.
@Power Level Guy
