OK! Fack this!

[SSJ2]

Why the fuck is that quote under Vegeta and not Goku/Cell? The fuck.

Anyway, Viz seems pretty certain that it isn't just one step, and I'd agree based on Goku always being dramatically behind Cell's speed. Vegeta couldn't out-speed Zarbon that badly.

 

[ahill1]

@Zoro

The fight prior to the Instant KHH really isn't that close.

Never said that was close. I still have Cell noticieable stronger than Goku, but don't see a need to have the gap bigger than a 90/100 type of gap.

Goku gets the first few hits on Cell because Cell allowed him to. Goku then hits Cell after teleporting away from the KHH, and Cell was off guard because he didn't know Goku could teleport. Cell hits Goku hard 4 times in a row by out-speeding him each time. Goku then springs Cell into the air from underneath him. They then both dodge a blow from one another. That is literally the whole fight up until they both lose a substantial amount of energy.

Yeah, and while Cell was stronger it wasn't a stomping range (like Vegeta vs Dodoria). Like I said, Cell acknowledged Goku was putting up a fun fight and said the fights aren't fun unless the fighters are close to a certain extent like this:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.”
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.”

In Viz he even said he and Goku were well-matched and Goku agrees with Cell.

Goku gets several hits in, but Cell either allowed him to, or was unaware that Goku could even attack. Goku got out-sped badly and was hit many times in a row with no defense. He dodged one of Cell's attacks, but Cell also dodged his. That doesn't seem like rivalling to me.

Goku Kaioken also couldn't keep up with Vegeta's power (18K) and that gap was about a 90/100 type of gap, so I don't see anything wrong with Goku being 90% of Cell, even more when considering Cell said Goku was close to him to a certain extent or well-matche (if you are going with Viz).

 

[SSJ2]

Yes, and I disagree with your gap. If Cell was truly trying to be a match for Goku, why would he have his power level at such that he was faster than Goku's Shunkan Ido? Goku was absolutely unable to defend himself from Cell's onslaught of attacks prior to releasing the IT KHH. Even Zarbon was able to track Vegeta's movements and at least know where he was when he was attacking.

Goku couldn't keep up with his power, but he wasn't being out-sped by 18k Vegeta that badly.

 

[ahill1]

If Cell was truly trying to be a match for Goku, why would he have his power level at such that he was faster than Goku's Shunkan Ido?

Maybe Cell's favorite kind of fight is one where he is clearly dominant but his opponent isn't far weaker than him, as he said Goku was close to him to a certain extent.

Goku was absolutely unable to defend himself from Cell's onslaught of attacks prior to releasing the IT KHH.

While Cell's speed was too much for Goku, the latter was still able to dodge Cell's punch and hit him with a kick. After this, each of them dodged one attack of the other. If I'm seeing well, Cell was putting his arms in the place Goku kicked, implying Goku's kick damaged him a little. After this, Cell complimented Goku and said he didn't think he'd have this much fun. Not nearly a stomp range IMO.

Goku couldn't keep up with his power, but he wasn't being out-sped by 18k Vegeta that badly.

The only moment Goku confronted full power Vegeta with the Kaioken was when the latter fired a blast, which Goku could barely dodge, saying he could barely keep up with Vegeta even with twice the Kaioken and this was before Vegeta said he take easy in the blast in order to not kill Goku.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I think Cell vs Goku remember Vegeta vs Zarbon a bit. Anyways, I have Goku at 90~91% of Goku.
This is considering the 24,000 Vegeta's power level. Ignoring it, I'd like to have Zarbon at 88% of Vegeta.

Freeza was already 90% or more when he fought Goku and the fight was almost even unlike Cell and Goku which was almost like Goku having trouble to keep up.

I have Freeza at 94% of SSJ Goku.

90% is still rivaling like Goku and Freeza. 88% gap can give us a noticeable gap that two fighters aren't rivaling at all like Cell and Goku. When Cell increased his speed, Goku can't keep up anymore.

 

[SSJ2]

@ahill1 I'll counter that tonight after work, but do you have a defense for Zarbon clearly tracking Vegeta's movements, even when Vegeta was trying to surprise him with speed?

 

[ahill1]

@Fearless Saiyajin - Why do you think there's such a difference between a 88/100 and a 90/100 gap? lol. I think Goku was a distant rival of Cell (suppressed vs Goku). I think Cell increased his speed only when fighting Gohan. After that power up, I don't see Cell increasing his speed against Goku.

@Zoro - Do you mean here?

Spoiler

While I think this indicates the gap wasn't not that big, like Goku vs Recoome type of gap, I don't think this necessarily indicates the gap was smaller than Goku vs Cell. #19 could track Goku SSJ sick movements too:

Spoiler

^The difference was that Goku was fast enough to elbow him before he could attack.

 

[SSJ2]

@ahill1

Having read your post, you make good points. However, I want to suggest a middle ground. I think Goku's power feats vs Cell would agree with the gap you have suggested. 1.1-1.12x or so. However, I still don't see the speed lining up. It could be possible that Cell didn't have his speed aligned perfectly with his power. For example:

Goku: 100
Cell: 110
Cell speed: 115

Therefore, the total gap is 1.125x. What do you think?

 

[Six Trails]

@ahill1

Having read your post, you make good points. However, I want to suggest a middle ground. I think Goku's power feats vs Cell would agree with the gap you have suggested. 1.1-1.12x or so. However, I still don't see the speed lining up. It could be possible that Cell didn't have his speed aligned perfectly with his power. For example:

Goku: 100
Cell: 110
Cell speed: 115

Therefore, the total gap is 1.125x. What do you think?

 

[SSJ2]

@ahill1

Having read your post, you make good points. However, I want to suggest a middle ground. I think Goku's power feats vs Cell would agree with the gap you have suggested. 1.1-1.12x or so. However, I still don't see the speed lining up. It could be possible that Cell didn't have his speed aligned perfectly with his power. For example:

Goku: 100
Cell: 110
Cell speed: 115

Therefore, the total gap is 1.125x. What do you think?

Fuck you, don't be a twat.

 

[ahill1]

@ahill1

Having read your post, you make good points. However, I want to suggest a middle ground. I think Goku's power feats vs Cell would agree with the gap you have suggested. 1.1-1.12x or so. However, I still don't see the speed lining up. It could be possible that Cell didn't have his speed aligned perfectly with his power. For example:

Goku: 100
Cell: 110
Cell speed: 115

Therefore, the total gap is 1.125x. What do you think?

Yeah, I think a 88/100 gap works just fine. Where do you have it? 1.15x?

 

[SSJ2]

@ahill1

Having read your post, you make good points. However, I want to suggest a middle ground. I think Goku's power feats vs Cell would agree with the gap you have suggested. 1.1-1.12x or so. However, I still don't see the speed lining up. It could be possible that Cell didn't have his speed aligned perfectly with his power. For example:

Goku: 100
Cell: 110
Cell speed: 115

Therefore, the total gap is 1.125x. What do you think?

Yeah, I think a 88/100 gap works just fine. Where do you have it? 1.15x?

Usually yes. The lowest I can go is 1.12.

 

[ahill1]

I see. A 86/100 gap is the most I'd go honestly considering beast Zarbon vs Vegeta was a 85/100 gap. Monster Zarbon was more dominant over Vegeta than suppressed Cell was over Goku IMO.

 

[SSJ2]

I disagree with your Monster Zarbon/Vegeta gap. But I guess you have Zarbon higher than 29k for some reason.

 

[Six Trails]

@ahill1

Having read your post, you make good points. However, I want to suggest a middle ground. I think Goku's power feats vs Cell would agree with the gap you have suggested. 1.1-1.12x or so. However, I still don't see the speed lining up. It could be possible that Cell didn't have his speed aligned perfectly with his power. For example:

Goku: 100
Cell: 110
Cell speed: 115

Therefore, the total gap is 1.125x. What do you think?

Fuck you, don't be a twat.

 

[SSJ2]

At least say what you disagree with instead of being retarded about it.

 

[ahill1]

I actually have monster Zarbon at 28.5k, that is, ~1.18x stronger than Vegeta (84/100). I'd think the gap between Goku and suppressed Cell was noticeable smaller than the Vegeta and monster Zarbon, you no?

 

[Six Trails]

At least say what you disagree with instead of being retarded about it.

I don't disagree. I didn't even read the argument.

 

[SSJ2]

I actually have monster Zarbon at 28.5k, that is, ~1.18x stronger than Vegeta (84/100). I'd think the gap between Goku and suppressed Cell was noticeable smaller than the Vegeta and monster Zarbon, you no?

I do, yeah. M Zarbon vs Vegeta is around a 1.2x gap for me. Goku vs Cell is anywhere from 1.12-1.15x. That is noticeably smaller.